Working Girls: America's Career Women on Screen | Kirsten Schaffer

please join me in welcoming to the stage women in film executive director Kirsten Schaffer thanks for being here tonight so much fun yeah when was the last time you saw that I realize I have actually never seen that that's great which I thought I had and I was watching I was like oh yeah yeah well I think a lot of people have maybe seen the version the original release version which had a bunch of stuff cut out of it but it wasn't until the Library of Congress found that print in like 2004 that a lot of the more salacious stuff was kind of put back do you know where they found it I know it was in a library facility I'm not sure like I think it was either in there I don't know off to look that up I'm really not sure but they they came across it they were like oh this is longer than the other ones we've seen yeah so I was kind of hoping to to use these films as a jumping-off point about to talk about female agency just because it's kind of incredible like I was really surprised at how much sexual agency she has in this movie for a film even for a pre-code film and that kind of went away for good for a really really long time and I don't know if we've ever quite gotten back to it I'm curious if if you think that we're like maybe still suffering from the motion picture production code a little like if we've never fully recovered was interesting to watch it in this moment in time right because she did have so much agency and and was you know obviously in in charge of her sexuality and used it you know to advance her economic situation for sure but I was also thinking about the time that this movie was made in the beginning of Hollywood and everything that we've been talking about the last few months about the casting couch and the ways that women are depicted even though she had her own eight agency she still is she's using her sexuality to you know advance our economic situation like I said a minute ago and that is setting the sort of tone for the ways that women are portrayed on screen the ways the actresses are thought of that builds - you know everything that that was that came to light in October about sexual harassment and discrimination and in this industry so it's like two things are happening in there right we're yeah it's cut it kind of takes the the casting couch idea and like she is obviously fully aware of what how she can use that like metaphorical couch to her advantage weight and you see her like she like pushes guys off and she's like you know yeah like get off of me but she also is sexualized in this way that makes you could make one think that it's okay to treat women in a certain way yeah you mean for the audience of the time maybe yeah yeah well I I kind of want to take a step back a little because I know I just kind of went right no no and I started I wanted to kind of jump off with like actually talking about the film because we could talk a lot about the film but I also like I wanted to use this this series as an opportunity to talk to women who are working in Hollywood and also working in the professions that were depicting on screen in this series and so I was really interested in bringing you in to talk a little bit about what women in film is what it does how you got started there so maybe if you want to talk a little bit just for those who don't know in the audience about what women in film is and what it does for the community we're a 45 year old organization that was started by teaching Wilkerson who's the publisher of The Hollywood Reporter at that time and the when the organization was was founded it was a group of women who had fairly high profile jobs in the industry I think you know there were very few women who had those kinds of jobs and 1973 but they form the sort of coalition to help each other and then also help the next generation coming up the organization has evolved into one you know sort of still with a similar foundation but the real goal of the organization is to achieve gender parity at every level of the film television digital media business so that in front of and behind the camera we have you know 50 percent women and we're a long ways away from in many areas 4 percent of the top grossing movies are directed by women I think 17 percent of television is directed by women 11 percent screen there are new numbers that came out a couple weeks ago and I wouldn't totally memorize them but they're in that range and they don't really increase too much from year to year from study to study I mean only I listen to an interview with you from just two years ago and the numbers were a little lower but that the increase has been like incremental yeah we're seeing um we're seeing some increases in television in interacting but also we're seeing a lot more television getting made so there are more women working in television but the percentage is not really going up significantly because it reflects the amount of TV getting made right now I mean there's a lot of people talking about this issue there's a lot of press around it there's definitely a lot of lean in but the numbers are slow to move it's interesting that I mean women in film your your mission statement has always been about parity in one way or another and but it really kind of seems like it took times up to like the times of organization to make that a stated goal with like an a date like we want this by this date right 50/50 by 2020 yeah yeah you know the Swedish Film Institute started this fifty-fifty by 2020 about three or four years ago because you know they're the Swedish Film Institute and they control most of the funding of the films in Sweden so they can they can do that and and make it happen fairly quickly it's really different a thing to ask this like complicated multifaceted industry to get there that fast and in many ways I mean I think my belief and the belief of women in film is that we want to see incremental progress that sticks right so in many ways 5050 by 2020 is an amazing rallying cry but we want to see the culture change and the institutional change that will be lasting not just something that's gonna you know somebody's gonna do to make a headline and they don't mean time's not making that money I mean like companies you know saying like we're gonna do this and it's great if they do it and they stick to it and they get it but that we want to ensure that that's that that's how it happens do you see the the women who are working with times up as as allies oh it women and oh definitely I mean I think it takes it takes everybody you know we talked a lot about systemic change and so ensuring that the entire industry is is changing and we definitely work in partnership with with times up and with 50 50 by 20 20 times I've is actually a number of different initiatives within an entity that may become an organization but not yet an organization right well I don't speak on behalf of chimes up but my understanding is it's a movement do you think that the that the way to move this conversation forward I mean it obviously headlines are working right that's what's sticking that's what's getting everybody talking about this but I really think that perhaps like stepping back and thinking about a structured way of a baby not structured but like a step-by-step way of approaching this so that there is more so that it seeps in everywhere is maybe to start with education so yeah I just wanted to ask a little bit about how women in film is using education or other sort of programs to affect that change like from the ground up so we have a program that we launched last year with the Sundance Institute called reframe and it's a project that we built with 50 decision-makers in different areas throughout the industry and there are it's based on the sort of theory of change the way that systems tend to change is if there's a strong business case combined with a deep pipeline of talent combined with leadership from the top then you have culture change and so we designed a set of programs that put pressure on every side of that triangle to ensure that that change happens and those programs are a protege sponsorship program which we consider like mentoring on speed I love that idea I just read I'm taking mid-career filmmakers and just help just push them up through the pipeline you think of filmmaker like Dee Reese or patty Jenkins a few years ago you sort of had made incredible films had a lot of attention but it's like weren't getting the bigger budget projects are you finding those those women for the the Protege program at Sundance and other film festivals and then kind of because that's kind of the starting ground for a lot of first-time filmmakers are these independent or big independent film festivals we'll find some of them there well mostly it'll be recommendations from colleagues in different areas of the industry including the festivals and some of the kind of incubator programs yeah and then there's a stamp so when films do films and television shows make progress towards gender parity they get the refrain stamp and then the last part of it is we're doing we've developed an unconscious bias / conscious inclusion training program that is specific to this industry which includes a road map there's a 14 point road map that at every different inflection point in the process of getting a film or television show made we're giving giving ways that the production can be done differently to include more women everything from the way scripts are read to the way films are marketed do you think so and those those I'm sorry what was it called the unconscious bias bias so so with unconscious bias training or awareness is that kind of is that road map something that you offer up on your website or is it something that a members get access to we will we haven't published it yet we've been out at the studios and networks having these conversations and getting them to sign on to the program and we'll publish it soon oh great and make make it available the unconscious bias training have you ever done one I haven't no it's pretty there are a lot of different kinds of unconscious by turning on from trainers but I've done a couple of them and they've been really enlightening like the ways that you know our brains connect us to different people and different ideas that we don't even always know are happening to us and so the it's about understanding that and then figuring out how to kind of undo that and I did one with a group of like 12 12 men and a couple of women and it was amazing to watch the light bulbs go off like people are like oh I didn't realize that when I said you know there were no women to put on this list that it was because I had this metric system that's um that was different you know and if I think if I shift that system a little bit I see that there's actually a lot of women I can put on that list and so do you think I think that that unconscious bias like it it's so it's you're so blind to your own kind of like programmed ways of thinking that it even can be as like obvious as someone from the outside looking at like a male director reaching out and seeing I love this metaphor of like the male director in like a ballcap like looking around and seeing like a young guy in a ball calf and being like he looks like he can make a movie because he looks like me and taking that person under their wing and that that kind of perpetuates in this endless cycle and not even understanding that that's like the the opportunities that you're giving to other people are are only those that you can like are mirror images of yourself and are like somebody went to the same university right or up in the same neighborhood you did or as friends people you know and we stay in sort of these these are tribes and then we we pick from or hire from our tribes and it's so it's that the challenge is to get outside of that a bad word for it is maybe nepotism yeah I think there's a lot of awareness on this issue and a lot of people working to change that and I think that's that's what that's what matters is is taking all of this energy and attention on the subject and making real tangible change and so there there are these training programs that you offer and I also read a bit about the the new hotline and support centers that you've opened since October 2017 since all of these stories started coming out can you talk a little bit about those resources that you've made available we launched a helpline on December 1st so we were getting a lot of calls from our own members and other people in industry saying like I've been sexually harassed I've been sexually abused at work like you know within the film and television business what do I do and so we launched the helpline as a way to help people figure out where to go so it's not like a crisis line it really is we listened to their we've trained professionals who listen to their stories and then helped connect them to their lawyers or therapists or support groups yeahit's we had um we were lucky to have Sigourney Weaver here earlier a couple weeks ago and she was talking about how when things would happen on set even like in the 80s when she was making working girl or something not that working girl is an example of this but when things would happen on set you would maybe go to the production manager maybe go to your agent maybe maybe go to your manager but like nothing would happen right that that that that like it kind of stopped there I think there's been both a culture among women of like we're tough we can handle that it's like we can totally shoulder this and we care about our art or our careers more than maybe what's happening to our you know emotional selves or our physical bodies and we can get through it like there's been that and then there has been like you said like you know either nobody responding or not knowing how to respond and so that's the cultural shift that that we're at the beginning of its helping people figure out how to respond in the moment how to not have some of the behavior to begin with when it does happen how to respond you know sometimes I think it's about communication and respecting communication and sometimes it's obviously much deeper when you're looking at like a you know serial perpetrator yeah I'm wondering so we have all women in film is offering all these programs and a lot of research-based methods but I also like this idea of healing through or healing or coming together or kind of trying to fix problems through art mm-hmm so I was wondering if you could talk I've heard you talk about this before so I'm curious what your thoughts on that or how that's possible how people can kind of coalesce or or gather around the idea of art and how that can be healing and how that can be unified even when we may have our differences or or approach things differently well I'm gonna start slightly differently then I'll come back to the original decision which is you know we're at the heart of creating culture and of telling stories that are broadcast projected around around the world so we have some responsibilities as people who work in this business to tell the kind of stories and stories impact behavior and the ways that the that people are perceived women in particular and so we have a responsibility to think about the kind of images that were projecting the kind of stories that that were telling and in that way I think there can be a healing effect in the you know in change in that I think like to use a slightly cliched example I mean Wonder Woman right is this like film directed by a woman that is in in you has its flaws but in so many ways is this powerful example of femininity and womanhood that I think start to change some some perceptions I know some people think that she's still pretty sexualized in that little outfit but like less so than that a number of other superheroes and then I also think even just you know things like this like seeing this film seeing the other films being able to have the kind of dialogue that happens here and then when when everybody leaves here that is part being able to have art leads us to conversation and so you know being able to have the conversations that come out of screening like this I think are really important I'd like to turn it over to that audience if anyone has a question I'm in just a minute so think of a question but what I would I just wanted to kind of go back in your own career so you are currently the head of this major organization that's that's really fighting for gender parity but before that what were you doing you were a film programmer you were working for festivals and making films even so I'm I love this idea of of screening series being like a way of telling a story or programs being a way of telling a story so what what is your experience with with that side of filmmaking and film exhibition I guess I did make some movies somebody I went to film school with is in the audience he introduced himself or reintroduce himself when I came in that was a long time ago I started programming film festivals and when I was in college and I totally fell in love with that like digging you know just like watching like tons and tons of stuff trying to find those sort of needles in the haystack you know films really matter to matter to me that I wanted to be able to bring to audiences and so I my last job before I came to women in film was it was the executive director of Outfest which is the LGBT Film Festival and media arts organization here in LA and I've been there for for a while and I had seen a huge change a huge shift and the perception of LGBT people happen in culture a lot and a lot of that shift I think happened because of images that we were seeing on television sets and on screens you know along with some really good strategy on the part of politicians and organizers to shift the laws but I think first we saw the culture shift and then we saw the the laws follow and I wasn't seeing the same kind of change happen in the women's community and I felt like I could take a lot of what I had learned from the LGBT community into this work to try to make those get those numbers to move you like seeking out hard I think meaningful work yeah that's are there any questions from the audience for Kirsten okay we have one right here just wait for the microphone to get to you if you don't mind hi our question one is what is the target audience for the films that you intend to make and will men go to them I I do not make films anymore I now run a nonprofit organization full time but I think the we have a lot of members in women in film who do make films and they make films that they want both men and women to say for sure that's I think I think that's there is this kind of misperception that women make movies only for women and I think we have seen in I mean in all the films of Debra Granik you know made Winter's Bone or in the films of Kathryn Bigelow or in the films of Dee Reese or you could go on and on like so many female filmmakers who make films for a general and a wide audience which would include men and women and I also yeah to add to that there's there's a the 51% of the population of the world is women and we're going to see movies just as much as men right this movie was you know directed by a man written by a woman and a man and I think it appeals I mean if I look out of this audience it looks like it's kind of a 50/50 audience so it appeals to men and and aunt women and Simon shaking his head in the middle is that there is it so when we so we did this study a couple years ago with Stacy Smith at USC and we used the sundance film makers and fellows as kind of a control group to try to understand why it is that women fall out of the pipeline so if you about 50% of people in film school are female 25% of the film's at Sundance are made by women 4% of the top grossing movies are made by women what like why are women falling out between that 25% and that 4% and one of the things that we found particularly among buyers who buy films at film festivals then distribute them was that there is a perception that women make movies for women and for smaller audiences and so that perception we've been working on shifting that perception within the within the industry so that what this gentleman in the middle said here is actually true that if you make a good movie you make a good movie and everybody wants to see it but the marketing dollars that are put into movies have to the the company that is putting the marketing dollars into that movie has to have that same belief otherwise it doesn't get the support behind it and then that is then that is not able to be true and it goes so far as I remember hearing anecdotally about this film rich Hill that was at Sundance a couple years ago at this incredible documentary that was made by I think their cousins a male and a female and after the film at an after-party Andrew was just swarmed by people trying to talk to him and offer him jobs and Tracey said that she remembers just kind of being in the corner like not no one wanted to talk to her and they were equal partners on this film she maybe even did more in like directing and editing and she watched this happen instantly yeah there's a perception that a director is a as a man and I mean it makes sense like when you look at the Canon right there are like very few women in the Canon there there are not nearly as many female directors in the at the Library of Congress or on you know afi's you know top 100 lives or even in our own archive at UCLA and I think probably many of you who are here are you know fans of movies from from this time period and you know that there were a lot of female directors in the in the teens and the twenties and when the film business when there was more money put into the film business women women were moved out so it's a thing that we have know seen and not through our research that when money comes in women go out from the audience oh we have a real Wow you should be up here she said that her grandfather edited this movie and over it oh my god I love ladies they talk about great she is now an out of her that's great [Music] more room role models I think we all need more role models showing us that and I think that that's why something like patty Jenkins making Wonder Woman is so important because despite how you feel about the film love it hate it in the middle a lot of young girls we're not just able to see a woman on screen who's pretty powerful and doing some pretty kick-ass stuff they're also looking at this woman be very vocal and very present in the press talking about and this achievement that she made which was to make it hugely grossing very popular movie I think we had one more question I saw someone else's hand go up right here yes so first I'd like to say just how much I miss your wonderful introduction is that out fist every year thank you and my question is actually about film festivals do you know or are there in this area or elsewhere any major film festivals that are specifically for films made by and about women and if so what are they and if not why not yeah it's a good question there's some small festivals but there aren't any the size of out fest or film independent or AFI a couple years ago Geena Davis started a film festival with support from Walmart in Bentonville Arkansas that has become sort of one of the more high-profile female-driven festivals I think because we're 51 percent of the population the drive has really been to make the mainstream festivals more inclusive of women you know one of the things that I think works about like the pan-african Film Festival that's going on right now or out faster some of the identity-based festivals is that the we are more of a minority and so to be together in community really matters and I I'm not sure it matters as much to to the female film going community that like I'm not sure that women are so craving being you know sort of with their tribe and that way otherwise they would have happened I think I don't know I would hope that more I mean as a female film programmer and avid film goer I there have been a couple times I've been in an audience where I wish there were more women around me because sometimes I might be the only one so I think it's I think that really what would help is just in general not necessarily a festival that's for women to come watch I think that in general more women need to feel invited into being a cinephile invited into being a movie lover and invited into a film space where they feel safe and feel like somebody's not going to make a comment about them being there alone which I've had happen to me or you know I think I think that's important just as a general film goer to be allowed to go to a movie alone as a woman is something that like I want to encourage everyone to do more of just take up that pocket one of my favorite things to do to go to a movie alone yeah yeah it's really empowering it's something when I was in my 20s I was like am I allowed to do this I don't know I'm gonna go I'm gonna try it and then I did and I was like great I don't have to talk to anyone afterward this is great [Laughter] I think I think that's pretty much it I think that's all we have time for cuz I we have another movie that we want to get to thank you so much for having me so much inviting us to be a part of this and yeah we are a member based organization so if anyone is in the audience would like to become a member you can sign up on our website or if there's any confusion I'm happy to help and for the men in the room we need your support either you know a financial support we do have some male members or just like continuing to talk about this issue and when you see that kind of behavior from your when you see behavior from your colleagues one of the most effective things that men can do is call it out like man to man like you know whether it's like a sexist comment or a sort of harassment situation or just something that's not about equity and equality call it out thank you thanks everyone [Applause] you