Smithereens | Susan Berman

[Film Programmer KJ Relth] You were living in New York when you made this film, right? [Actress Susan Berman] Right. [Relth] How did you meet Susan? [Berman] It was funny because I was sitting... what I remember, is that I was at a play that a friend of mine was in but it was a play where there were about 10 people in the audience because you basically wouldn't go to the play unless you knew somebody that was in it. So, somebody working with Susan saw me in the audience and said "I think she'd be right for the part," and then called me, and asked me if I wanted to audition. If I was an actress or anything was the last question she asked. [Relth] Were you an actress? [Berman] Yeah, I had gone to NYU, I was studying acting, so yeah. [Relth] That's pretty serendipitous because she was in school at NYU right? [Berman] Yes, she was in school at NYU. And it kind of... anybody at this play would probably have been in theater or something. [Relth] And so, she called you, and you met, and she had the script already? [Berman] She called and I auditioned. I remember she made me audition about 10 times. But she had... it was a completely different script, and we were working on it. And... at first, it was kind of like a, sort of a "Breakfast at Tiffany's" kind of thing where this young, like free spirit meets a middle-aged art dealer who's really rich. That's what the movie was. And then we were doing an improvisation, and I fell off of... as we were doing it I fell out of a building. [Relth laughs] [Berman] and broke my ankle. And I was in a cast for four months and during that time they were able to look at everything, the whole script and they were able to rewrite it and it turned into what it is. [Relth] I'd read about you breaking your leg, which, I'm so sorry, that's awful, but it led to, I didn't realized it led to a complete reworking of the script. [Berman] It was a complete... it was a chance to look at everything and think "This is not working at all," and just to refigure the whole thing and that's what happened. [Relth] And that's when Richard Helen came in, right? [Berman] Yeah, exactly. [Relth] What was it like working with him? I mean, he was kind of... he kind of had a cult of personality around him at that point, right? And this, I mean this character is sort of if Richard Hell and the Voidoids hadn't made it. He's kind of a version of that character. [Berman] And there were a lot of people like that in those days. But when I found out that he was gonna be in it, I was a huge fan, so I was completely terrified and I remember when he started, I couldn't even talk to him. It was so scary, but then he ended up just being a really nice guy. [Relth] He looks scary. [Berman] He was a little, I mean, in those days I think he did have problems. [Both laugh. But he was interesting, I mean, he was exciting, you know? But also very supportive and very sweet. So he wasn't at all mean or edgy or anything like that. [Relth] And Cookie Mueller is, I didn't realize the film that you both go... that you, that Susan, or that Wren and Paul go to watch together is a film that Susan shot for this film. [Berman] Yeah, yeah. [Relth] And It's Cookie Mueller. That's so great. [Berman] I know. Do you, did anybody see that Chris Noth was one of the prostitutes? [both laugh] Which is pretty incredible. Yeah. [Relth] And so this is a version of New York. You lived there for how long after? [Berman] I lived there for I guess maybe about five years after. And then I moved to California, we would spend half the year in New York and half the year in California for a long time. But... but I've always gone back to New York and my daughter lives there, so. [Relth] It's a very different New York City now. [Berman] It's completely different. I mean, it's, you know, it's really easy to... I mean it was a very very exciting time. Because the city was bankrupt it was like there was nowhere to go but up and everything was cheap and if you didn't like your apartment you could stay there for a week and then move and it was completely different than it is now. And it was a really great place, but on the other hand , also very dangerous so you can romanticize it like a lot of kids do now, but it's, it was also like almost everybody I knew was held up or, you know, you know, mugged or you know all kinds of terrible things. [Relth] Yeah, and it's, that's kind of why I think this film is so unique and interesting, because it's one of the few narratives, especially from that time where you see a woman trying to navigate, you know, that dangerous world and it's kind of just taken for granted the Paul, for example, can sleep in his van [Berman] Right. [Relth] and he's fine and no one's gonna bother him and if they do it's like a friendly prostitute. [Berman] Right. [Relth] For Wren, she's bouncing all over the place and she's really in a lot of danger that she doesn't seem to acknowledge. [Berman] Yeah. I think that was kind of true at the time though I don't think that this character was that far off the way a lot of people were she was maybe a little extreme but I think that there were a lot of people that you know hanging out in crazy parts of town that all hours of the night and there was always something going on and it was always you know just it was fun but it was but you were kind of taking your life in your hands and I think for some reason we all thought that was great you know that without communities yeah was it there were a lot of people who do with it didn't think that was great but downtown at this particular you know where where I lived it was considered you know kind of a fun thing but I think back on it I'm surprised we all survived you know it was pretty crazy it's pretty it's pretty incredible and I mean the that lot where he was worth Paul's van is by the West Side Highway yeah is now where Trump play Trump Tower yeah yeah yeah it was better before it was better with Marty nutter yeah absolutely and I mean the the other interesting so the peppermint lounge yeah had moved around a couple times right I mean it was further uptown and then it moved that's right that iteration where you were shooting was closer to Union Square I think yes yeah yeah and was it did you just shut the place down to go in and shoot because I know you weren't really you didn't really have permits I don't we didn't have permits anywhere I mean constantly being chased all over the town you know we were I mean we were on the subway when I think about those faces those close up of people they they didn't fit inside anything I mean they were just like you know but they but if we were just we really were chased all over New York you know we weren't allowed to be on the subway so we would try to get shots and then you know get chased off and then I remember there was a prop guy that was the gun that's in the movie he was standing in Times Square just holding it waiting for a scene and suddenly we looked and he was surrounded by cops and you know so it was it it was we didn't I think there wasn't it was like a bunch of people just trying to make a movie really I mean Susan really was a pro and knew what she was doing although was her first movie but it was all done like stealth I think when when the cops surrounded him was there kind of like a like a tacit agreement to just all leave and like let him deal with it he was left completely alone we didn't it got enough help from anybody I mean for the production it makes sense yeah for the production to keep going yeah absolutely we just had to be like okay so yeah it was crazy and and again they're like back to the club scene I'm just really fixated on that for some reason because it was it was such a like vibrant place and there's there's like bands performing and there's very I mean there's very clear dialogue recorded in there so were you in there after hours or probably you know it's so long ago that I can't really remember for all I know it was a Sunday afternoon you know I guess it was night but the the exterior shots could have been at night but the interior I don't even remember it probably was early in the morning or something I mean I'm because those places we usually had some they usually had something going on every night so I'm not sure exactly how we did that I don't I don't remember yeah yeah and in terms of the I mean it's very very clearly this was intended to be a female character but when you and Susan kind of got together initially I guess during the reworking phase were you a part of that the reworking of the script and then yeah I guess the follow-up to that is just did you did you focus on the fact that she was how important it was that she's kind of unsympathetic okay no so interesting yeah we I don't think that I mean hopefully well first of all I didn't have a lot to do with I I didn't sit with her and and I mean it's really her thing I mean she really came up with it and then I and then one of the writers is Ron Niswander who writes a lot of like I think he I can't remember what show he works on but what's that show I'm always saying he works on a homeland yeah he's one of the producers of homeland and he writes episodes and I'm like god he's really a great writer and so the dialogue I thought was actually pretty good and but yeah this was really Susan's idea but when she told me what it was gonna be I was so happy because it made it you know it just seemed so much more fun and we could really be more ourselves even though I was nothing like that character but still we could you know be like characters that were around us you're nothing like that character but you still like you knew you knew that scene I knew the scene and I lived in the East Village and I I mean I guess I used to go to clubs all the time I mean but everybody did then we would go to like the Mudd Club and then we'd come out and it would be morning and we'd have breakfast at Dave's luncheonette so and everybody and they were open tonight they were open all night so I mean all the clubs we come out around 10:00 a.m. so that's that's basically what we did but I was you know I mean I wasn't like that character at all though because I was very shy and I was kind of you know I was a lot more reticent about things and this person was I think it captures this really interesting transition between sort of between punk rock and New Wave yeah before a new way was even defined yeah and so the the fashion is like a very specific moment that really only existed for like two years that like maybe blondie was influential and bringing about it was it was a it was a very short period of time when it was like this and I felt like Susan in a way are she kind of art-directed New York because everything was really colorful and vibrant but she made it even more so I mean there was a lot of spray painting that was already something a lot of it was already there but it was it was like New York heightened yeah even some of the a lot of the interiors the colors are just incredible yeah yet the last version the last I saw this I think was like on my laptop and the colors on that print just incredibly the interiors and you see that carry over actually into desperately seeking Susan that's true the colors in that movie or just yeah that's that yeah I think that this was really kind of like the template for that like I can really see that there was a jumping-off point to that other movie and they all kind of coalesce into your character in making mr. right yeah that's right like in one body yep yeah that's yeah yeah well I think we can go to the audience sure anybody anybody out there have any questions we have microphones that we can run around all the way up in the back there he's you open by speaking about falling out of a building while doing improv and I'm very curious from the type of training you guys were having at NYU and the specificity of this kind of production how that sort of technique was integrated how much the improv became part of the character discovery process I don't know if you can sort of speak to that technique a little bit well we did a lot of improvisation in in the movie I mean that it's all scripted but we did a lot of rehearsing and improvisation so it was I mean I have to say for me because I was kind of still in school when I did it my whatever technique I had was basically trying to just get over sheer terror but the but what but what happened in this particular improvisation that we were doing when the accident happened we were with the guy we were at the rich art dealers loft and you know the character that was playing the rich art dealer and like a European guy kind of a lothario and we were and Susan had us do this exercise where his objective was to get me out of there at all costs and my objective was to stay and then she kind of whispered in our ear even though was like a 1o1 exercise so he was so we were acting and he picked me up and put me out and he this was his loft the guy he was actually his life he put me out on his fire escape and then closed all the doors but we were still acting and so I was like knocking on the window and step back and and I was all I heard somebody scream in the street and I looked down and I'd fallen to the next floor and so that's what happened so that's but but in terms of technique that's it's interesting we did a lot of a lot of improv and we did a lot of you know there was a lot of been put into how the scenes were gonna go so I think there was you know there was that kind of thing in the middle up here oh wait can you wait for the microphone to come sorry Thanks I was wondering to what degree the improv made its way into the finished script I was thinking specifically of that wonderful scene with the prostitute who offers Paul our chicken sandwich yeah and that had a sort of particular type of humour that wasn't in the rest of the script and I wondered if yes and they had contributed that line you know what I don't know I wasn't there when they shot that but I do feel like that's the best scene in the movie and I feel like it's and I feel like there was something about it that just really awards and I'm not sure how it came about really I have a feeling it was it really seems like a Susan Seidelman scene though there's something about it that is so her sensibility that I have a feeling that it was scripted but probably they kind of took off a little on the dialogue like we all did yeah any other questions from the audience um I I was curious going back to I mean didn't like that this shoe probably necessitated a really small crew especially there on the street stuff so the but the point where I like noticed it the most was toward the very end when you're you're wearing this the pink coat on the subway and I just a met like I I had this like an imagination that it was maybe just you and Susan on the train together is that pretty accurate or did you have like a lighting guy helping to it was usually I think they were usually there was her cousin who kind of did crowd control the same guy with the gun and he always had the worst jobs like he was godly and then there was the cameraman and Susan and me and that was it so yeah it was very it had to be like a really really small kind of you know we had to be practically invisible yeah I'm sure yeah well it's not she was shooting on 16 right yes so that camera is a little a little smaller than maybe maybe a full on yeah it was 16 and then it was blown up to 35 for the Cannes Film Festival what was can like it was really great it was well first of all just really quickly this I think is an amazing little thing there it was in 16 and Susan had sent a copy of it to the Cannes Film Festival and they got back to her and they said you know we really liked it but we'd like to see it but you know too bad it's not in 35 or if you can put it and she didn't have the money to do it and apparently was incredibly expensive and she was sitting with a friend talking about it in a coffee shop and a guy at the next table said wait can film festival once your movie well I'm from a film company and show it to us and if we like it we'll blow it up for you and they did and that's how it got in did they charge they didn't charge no they didn't charge like two things yeah it was incredible yeah and say you two went together we went together yeah and we you know we you know that you had this grand thing up the steps and everybody was kind of pushing us aside trying to see like who's somebody that they knew they were was but was fine I mean we had a great time at can so was you know was very exciting it was unexpected did you notice did you notice a difference I guess in her in her attitude or style between this and the second film you made with her which was about five years later yeah and a bit I mean not not huge Hollywood movie but definitely like not as not a $40,000 independent production like this was yeah I think that she yeah I mean I I think that the production values changed and you know she was able to work with actors that were a lot more experienced which was great but I also feel like it was still her there's something of her that's very very distinctive that goes through all of her movies that I think is really that I think is really great well we were really happy to feature this film tonight and have you here oh thank you thank you so much I think that I think we're gonna wrap it up all right great yeah thank you so much for coming okay thank you all for coming tonight