Psychedelic TV: Musical Variety in Age of Aquarius | Billy Davis Jr., Florence LaRue, Marilyn McCoo

good evening and welcome to the Billy Wilder theater home of public programs for the UCLA film and television archive my name is Mark Wigley and I'm the John H Mitchell television curator for the archive thank you for coming before we begin as a land grant institution the film and television archive at UCLA would like to acknowledge our presence on the traditional ancestral and unseated territory of the Gabrielino and Tonga people we are humbled to do work in this community thank you for coming to psychedelic TV music musical variety and the age of Aquarius we have Legends in the house with us tonight this event was made possible thanks to the critical support of the John H Mitchell television endowments and admission tonight is free thanks to a generous donor who has made archive trainings at the Wilder free through the end of the year special thanks also to retro video Bill desico Ian Marshall Dan Einstein Margot special Bobby Williams Miles Robinson Steve Rosenbloom Randy yantech and our co-sponsor of tonight's screening UCLA's music library please give them all a big round of applause tonight we pay tribute to the one and only Fifth Dimension one of the most beloved musical groups of the Psychedelic era and well beyond among just a fraction of their many honors The Fifth Dimension has earned four Gold Records six platinum records six Grammy Awards and is in the Grammy Hall of Fame the group's five number one records have left an indelible stamp on pop culture in American music including the iconic hits up up and away and Aquarius let the sunshine in last year the group was prominently featured in questlove's Academy award-winning documentary summer of Seoul which highlighted a group's electric performance at the 1969 Harlem cultural festival and tonight we are extremely honored to have three original members of this phenomenally talented group with us please give the warmest welcome possible to Legends Billy Davis Jr Florence LaRue and Marilyn McCoo [Applause] foreign for tonight we're just very fortunate to have them with us on our Billy Wilder stage so following the screening of The Fifth Dimension special in the cosmic Universe by Peter Max our esteemed guests will join Dr Cheryl Keys professor of music ethnomusicology and Global Jazz studies and chair of African American studies at UCLA for a q a a noted musician we were listening to her when you walked in an author among uh another musician and author among Dr Keys many acclaimed works is her award-winning book rap music and Street Consciousness thank you Dr Keith for joining us [Applause] after the Q a we will screen the mind-bending H Andrew Williams Kaleidoscope company special from 68 which features chart topper Andy Williams and a nehru collar suit and icons uh Ray Charles Mama Cass Elliott Simon and Garfunkel and many more so be sure to stick around after the Q a I do need to note that these television specials are presented as they originally aired and they do reflect a period in which they were made good and bad while there is much peace and love in these programs there are sections that are going to illuminate the biases and prejudices of the time we acknowledge these offensive moments which were wrong at the time they were created and they're wrong now these unedited archival programs are offered here to be enjoyed where appropriate and learn from where not a few quick final notes the Hammer Museum still requires mask wearing indoors so please remember to keep your masks on and your phones off lastly TV fans please come back here on November 19th for our special program lost African-American TV Robert L Goodwin's the upper chamber which is an extraordinary independently produced television drama that you do not want to miss so please go to our website for more details and now without further delay let's enjoy a flashback inducing screening with the one and only Fifth Dimension and like the best trip possible they're going to magically appear on the stage when the program is over so thanks for coming please welcome to the stage original members of The Fifth Dimension Florence LaRue Billy Davis Jr and UCLA Alum Marilyn McCoo [Applause] [Applause] [Applause] foreign moderator Professor Cheryl keys [Applause] foreign [Applause] oh my goodness I want you to know that I wasn't fat I was pregnant that's right that's right you were pregnant when we did that Jackson was happy yeah wow what an experience what an experience what an experience you know it's fun watching that stuff all the way over again you know you don't know how crazy you were when you see all this stuff but what random nuts but what rant to my mind you know I have to kind of go off script just looking at that and and uh here again I must say I acknowledge them as my heroes as I remember very well growing up in Louisiana and I know all of your music it was amazing that when Mark Quigley asked me to moderate and he was asking me about these different songs I said I know them all I know they're all because they became uh the the messages and they really you know set the tone for positivity and uh I must say thank you so much wow it's an honor to be sitting up here [Applause] well I'd like to start off by asking the question what was it like to to do a special The Fifth Dimension special how did that come about well actually I think it was probably the genius of our manager Mark Gordon who never really got the notoriety that he should have because I think I believe that because of Mark Gordon there was a Fifth Dimension because at that time Motown music was very popular and in our rehearsals we were singing mostly r b and Mark came up with a brilliant idea of us singing music that wasn't expected of a black group and he introduced us to Jimmy Webb and just he wanted us to be the black Beatles he want us to be something different well oh how long did you all practice I heard those people all the time we practice more than anything oh yeah we were in rehearsals when we didn't even want to be in rehearsals you know we were there because we enjoyed what we were doing so much and we we would just love making music you know and we always wanted to make sure that those notes were correct and hearing those songs uh tonight um I feel so proud of the work that we did yeah amen amen you know you know when you listen to those harmonies and and and uh and I I mean if if we didn't hit those notes correctly we were right back at the piano again over and over there was one song um I forget which one it was but we must have sung that song for 12 hours I mean it was really and I I had a problem as a matter of fact I didn't really want to be in the group like when I joined because I I didn't what happened was I I accidentally I won a talent contest and the bot came and said you know we need another girl from this group that I'm putting together I said well first of all I'm not a singer I'm an actress and I want to go to Hollywood and I'm and I'm also getting my degree in education and I want to teach and so um our manager said well look uh you got to come to rehearsal I said I don't have time I'm working full-time but thank God you know that I was they allowed me to come and to miss some rehearsals and the rest was history well tell us uh how did you all get started where are you from give us a little bit of your background well believe it or not all three of the guys are from St Louis Missouri a lot of people think this is made up but it's not we all knew each other when we were kids we went we went and band together during my Mutual cores and and uh but we all migrated to California at different times and what happened is that I was the last one to come out and um in in the mind and Maryland had sung with a group called The vocals right right Lamont was always putting together groups and uh that's the photographer yes yes the tall fellow the tall one in the group and uh he was always putting together uh groups and I loved I loved harmonies and uh Lamont invited me to be part of one of the one of the many groups that he had put together and um I enjoyed singing harmonies and and I thought well this would be a wonderful way to stay around music because I really I wanted to be a singer and that was that was my passion and uh but I did enjoy the harmonies and so we would we would get together and I remember that I remember when Florence came and auditioned to be in the group and uh there was a there was another woman in the group uh who she was she was a good friend of mine and I thought she was and so I thought well you know um we do need another singer though because as good a friend as she was she couldn't sing and uh and saying that evening and she came and she said well you know I'll come and see you know what you all are doing and and she's saying and and I thought well there goes my friend because she there was just no comparison and uh so let's see now um so Lamont and Billy and Ronald were all from St Louis and and uh then he uh Lamont found you how did you and LaMont get together because it was the the uh Miss bronze California yeah right right and I think he would have chosen whoever won the contest because let me tell you there were ladies in there who could sing circles around me but I happened I happened to win the contest and he asked me to join this group I said no first of all I'm not a singer I just sang because they said I had to do something and uh but that's but you know what though she had the talent and yeah I I was really intimidated by Maryland but I mean this girl could sing and I was like oh no but I guess I better learn how to sing and I started taking his voice lessons but when your boss came into the group it was perfect the the five bosses fit together that there have been uh our Ranger have been asked to put together a group it sounded like The Fifth Dimension and they paid him good money they put the group to put that group together and and he told him he said I can put the group together and I'll take your money he said but if you don't have the same voices it's not going to sound like The Fifth Dimension but I must say it was more than our sound because we really are a family and watching this I really miss around yeah I know it was so nice yeah Ron was like Ron and I were like brother and sister we thought he would say well if you were my wife you wouldn't be wearing those short skirts and I'd say well that's why I'm not your wife but he was he was the sweetest man I mean just like a gentle giant yeah we called him sweets yeah because he like candy that's another reason why they can't duplicate The Fifth Dimension because even though Maryland Billy and I even though we're not singing together we're family and we always will be yes yeah and watching that watching that um watching the special tonight um I'm so proud of that special and uh when we were contacted by Mark uh who was telling you know who said that he that they wanted to show the The Fifth Dimension in the I can't I can never remember the total title of the but in the world of Peter Max um we we hadn't looked at that in years Billy and I went on uh went on to uh what when we went and watched the watch the special again oh on YouTube oh on YouTube yes and we said we sat up there and watched it and we said oh my gosh we had forgotten how well that project came together and the songs and the harmonies again and just it it was um it was very emotional once again tonight to watch it you know what you know what I'm proud of the work that was done you know what I loved about the specials was Glenn Glenn Campbell you know Conan is so talented you know and he was doing all these little crazy Parts you know another good time Glenn and you know and and Glenn is is he's he's just one of those kind of guys that's got he can play bagpipes he can play guitar he he was just so talented and he had a beautiful voice beautiful voice you know and I used to go and try to watch him as much as I could because he was a friend you know and uh just to see him and I remember when the dream was having problems and I remember him saying to his daughter I think it was his daughter he said well don't worry about me I ain't done yet that's right you remember that yeah yeah well and what was it like working with the at Sullivan Peter Max and Artie the comedian everybody already yeah and Flip Wilson of course flip flips nuts they put together the some of the most talented people to make that special happen one thing that was really I thought I feel like a beautiful example of what can happen when you bring people together we were you know at that time in our country uh to to see a a special like that put together with so much talent and and such a mixture I mean we had black people we had white people we had to I mean it was just all of us friends working together enjoying one another respecting one another's talent and it's such a beautiful thing to see when we can put it all together and and create just some amazing moments yeah and to me that that special really showed what can happen boo you know what brings me to tears isn't that special is I know I've been here before when you do the thing with the with the kids with the children that was so beautiful man it's just so beautiful thank you and now here here I said at 80 years old looking back at it wow beautiful I think another reason Fifth Dimension was so popular is because our music was positive and it brought hope like people ask us about Aquarius they go into the astrology we went into astrology we we and we heard a song that spoke of Hope and um a future of of good times and as Maryland said people coming together in love and that's as I'm glad you brought up Aquarius uh because uh I don't know how many of you've got to have had an opportunity to watch uh the quest loves award-winning whether it would be the award-winning Quest North now I can say uh the summer Soul yeah and it was interesting to hear how Aquarius became a part of your repertoire so for those who didn't see it but it's just wonderful to hear it once more well I must say Billy but I can tell you a story about how that really came about you want to tell them the story about how we found y'all got the hour no no no no no no no no no we we were performing in New York at the Royal box at the the Americana Hotel We performed there every every year for the for the uh but school when when it was uh when it was during the time of a prom prom season and they would cut they would come and and so I went shopping and and make a long story short I lost my wallet and it dropped in a cab so a guy gets in the cab behind it picks up my wallet I come upstairs I'm looking for Moana I told Marilyn I said babe I lost my wallet now I said oh Lord you in New York you ain't gonna never see that wallet no more I said okay it's about a half hour later the phone rang and the guy said is this Billy Davis Jr I said yes he said well I got your wallet I said wow this is beautiful where are you at so I I found him I went over to his house I offered him some money he didn't take it so what I did I invited him over to the Americana to see the group him and his wife and so he took us up on that and uh so after the show he came back and said he said man you guys are beautiful he said since you were so nice Billy I'd like to invite you to our show I'm done who is this guy coming to find out he was one of the producers of hair which is where we got Aquarius from he was one of the producers now we have been trying to go see hair for the longest because everybody I mean they were sold out it was the biggest Broadway production at that particular time and what happened is that I mean lions were around the corner it was one of the Productions first time they ever seen people get naked on stage you know everybody wanted to see it you know we did too so so not not you yeah I know you but anyway so yeah right so so we went in and we saw hair and there was a kid by the name of Ronnie Dyson who just stood up and took off on when the moon and I mean the whole Auditorium just shook it's it's beautiful ten of ours and we all got together we came out to the uh into the intermission and doing the intermission we said we have to do that song we have to do that song and we called our producers our producer said it's all been done a lot of times I don't think you you know say well no The Fifth Dimension hasn't done it you know so give us a chance you know so so it ended up being the biggest record we ever had and then he came back to us and said let's put it with let the sun shine yeah right yeah make a difference that that that made it all really work and then and then when uh when we were in the studio and we were singing Let the sun shine and the bones said to Billy okay Billy now take it to church [Laughter] yeah yeah so it's taking us to church uh are you from the from a family of ministers or preachers or that gospel sound that well I grew up in church you know and uh I didn't want to be but I am a preacher yes amen yeah today yeah the interesting thing now is when we sing let the sun shine in it's for me it's not that the s-u-n shine but also in the essence yeah right Amos amen amen um I've got I want to go back to uh first of all speaking of you're being together so long and you can just feel the energy of uh of a of a group where there weren't any egos you could you can you can tell that and that's why it works so beautifully in the spirit of what uh we witness uh in uh the Peter Max um and Ed Sullivan production of The Fifth Dimension um a show but I also would like to ask a little bit about the voice I want to go back to the voice because when I um teach a class on African-American music I always talk about the vocaustration that's something that my my uh Professor former Professor would always say the vocal stration So speaking of five voices uh Leia who's the soprano the alto the 10 of the bass who's who did what uh or were you all how did you get that sound if I might ask well actually we kind of switched it around I think Maryland was saying soprano on top sometimes France was single time yeah I mean we switch around I'm a tenor and Ronald was a tenant and LaMont was a baritone base beautiful uh song that Ronald did out here in the Stars it was really beautiful and such a such a varied voice you know you and I guess it's the beautiful thing I liked about the the fifth dimensions and sometimes often um The Stereotype that you and you all mention this even in the summer of uh of Seoul about uh that some of folks thought that you were not black so I'd like to kind of talk about that and uh and just kind of clarify what exactly is black music or is it a such thing as black music and why do you feel that you were perhaps stereotyped as not really being a part of the black music experience but you proved us wrong but let's see yeah I think a lot of that had to do with the sound of uh of uh people who come from the church yeah and uh and gospel music is in many ways associated with the black sound and uh interestingly enough I was always told that I that I didn't have a black sound and so I and I did not grow up in the church and I didn't and I I learned through the years how to try to uh to use more of the Gospel in influence in in my sound especially for certain songs you know you you hear something that you want to accomplish based on the based on the type of song it is but um uh some some people come from the church as Billy did uh and some of us didn't as I didn't but as a matter of fact you know I used to feel bad because like Marilyn I didn't have what they considered a black sound and I remember once that we tried we put a song in the show uh I'm coming home it was Felipe um oh I forget the name of the group oh for the from The Spinners so I sang it and I tried to sound like him it was the worst thing you have ever heard and one day I heard Johnny Mathis singing the same song and it was great but he sounded like Johnny Mathis and that's when the Lord said to me there's one Aretha Franklin there's one Florence LaRue you do what you do best and even today when I see people when they say The Fifth Dimension the r b group we are not an R B group because we because of the voices we had we were our show was very um eclectic we could do all types we even did it best to let you from Pagliacci but our recordings were more what they called pop but our show was very well and still is very well-rounded with all types of music and I don't try to sound like a reason anymore well I'll tell you you know you said about black music I don't think there is such a thing you know because us as people we like to categorize ourselves you know we like to put ourselves in them well this is this and this is that this is r b and this is someone you know music is music you know is whatever you like to sing you know there's there's black people that's saying country music because black people who say Opera is back to me was black people were saying classical and their white people white people that think r b i mean and and so so it's it's us who put ourselves on those categories but there's no black music there's no white music that is music [Applause] and I think it's important to uh to work on the sound that you have as an artist and a work and and work to be the best that you can be in in with whatever it is that you do and like like they were saying that uh don't try to sound like somebody else be the best you can be and speaking of best songwriters who were some of your um favorite songwriters and how did you go about choosing the songs because I always remember a particular song what uh what good what good of a song If it ain't good enough to sing and if it ain't got no message so how did you choose your songs and some of your songwriters well of course we were very very blessed to meet early in our careers a young man by the name of Jimmy Webb and uh Jimmy Webb was writing music at Motown and he was yes and he was trying he was hoping to get a hit song at Motown now our manager Mark Gordon uh knew Jimmy because Mark uh was running the Los Angeles branch of Motown here in Los Angeles and uh Jimmy came out and uh played played some of his songs for Mark and Mark knew that he that he was a very good songwriter but uh they hadn't found the right direction for him in the meantime um Mark introduced we we met Jimmy Webb through our manager Mark Gordon and that was how we ended up with up up and away yes and uh so uh I so it's that's the way that that happened for us and that was one of the reasons again why a lot of times people said that the Fifth Dimension did not have a a black sound that they felt that that up up and away which was which became our first huge hit uh didn't sound like like it could be black voices and so when they saw pictures of us they were very surprised now uh at that at the time the radio was a very very categorized and uh back in the 60s yes right and so uh when when uh when we were heard uh they wouldn't play our they did not play Up Up and Away on the R B stations because they said it was an r b enough so they did play it on on the pop stations because it had a pop sound but they were shocked when they found out that the group that was making that sound was a black group and also our um arranger bones Hal our producer rather brought us a lot of songs that we never would have heard Laura Nero material you know things like that we would we wouldn't have heard that music but he brought us songs that were just out of our genre but I like to give a lot of credit to our Ranger which is his name was Bob alsovar and this man could arrange my God this guy was he could arrange yeah Take Me Out to the Ball Game and make it sound great you know he knew he had five voices to work with and he and then he just sometimes he would take us two or three different ways and it's just what he heard in his head is just he was the one that was offered the money to put together another fifth dimension but uh yeah his name is Bob alsovar elzavarth's from LA or what yes yeah he lived here uh your musical Rangers because I enjoyed uh just listening to all the the musical directors or the musical Arrangements in in the uh in The Fifth Dimension special well we were again blessed to to have uh to have working with us a man by the name of Renee tonight and Renee tonight was a a vocal arranger he worked with a group called The Delta Rhythm Boys who uh yeah years ago that was back in the 40s and the 50s and and uh in the 1800s Renee Renee heard all color arrangements and he was constantly coming in and bringing new songs and new uh approaches for us for for our live shows and so we were always doing interesting things in our live shows Renee came up with an idea when um when um what was her name oh did Billy Billy Joe um Bobby Gentry thank you yeah yeah Renee came up with an idea he's he realized that there were five characters in that story yeah and so he came up with the idea of all of us telling the story as characters of the song and and it was a very popular uh performance that we did in our show and uh Renee also he you see him uh he's conducting uh the band uh Aquarius yes yes but Renee also he taught us much more than just singing he you know he was I guess in his 50s you know we were young so we thought he was old but we learned so much from him we learned we learned about taking care of yourself on the road because we used to laugh at him because he'd eat organic and stand on his head do all these silly things and now I'm doing exactly what Renee did but he taught us about you know the Performing end of it we were we were blessed to surround ourselves with the best because you know when you don't know everything so you have to surround yourself with people who know and from whom you can learn that's right and one more thing about Renee um Renee taught us about taking care of business he said if you want to be in this business you've got to do the best you've got to go be the best when you come in and you're ready to perform or you're ready to do a job know your stuff he said because these people do not have time to have you fooling around out there and they're spending their money and when you come in to do a job they want you to do the best job I think that was one of the reasons why uh things work so well for the group with Ed Sullivan Ed Sullivan had a he just fell in love with the group he really did yeah I think that's how that the the wonderful opportunity came along for us to do this special with Ed Sullivan Productions and Ed Sullivan I mean it was his production company and his son-in-law who was the producer of the uh of the of the special can you imagine Ed Sullivan did did a moment in our special right right yes as the wizard I mean yeah fun part was when he said and drive careful if we in the cosmic field you know he's talking about driving yeah okay it's sarcasm we were blessed in so many wonderful ways like you said we've surround we were surrounded with Incredible people and by the way over and I were talking we we mentioned our outfits um the Peter Max artwork really went well with our outfits although he didn't not design it those were designed by Boyd Clapton and they went very well with the Peter Max colors yes yes but I have to say I'm not trying to be vain here I said you know what should I wear tonight I think this is the most psychedelic thing I have none of you wearing I feel bad anyway and it works very well it's kind of you well at this time we we can just entertain probably about one or two questions from the audience and I saw that hand go up right in the back now he has a wait a minute wait a little ahead of it right there okay sir we can hear you even without it oh Joey Heatherton you're probably very forgotten by it and many people might not remember who she was what was it like to work with her special Joy Heatherton he was a professional dancer she was a pro yes I mean everything that that that we did I mean that's every skit that she was in she was there yeah she's good she was a wonderful dancer yeah and uh we were just so proud to have her as part of the of the production and she and she like Billy said she gave it her all yeah yeah and the woman here sure yes it was CBS and uh um Glen Campbell's series was on CBS and Jim Nabors every time he was saying golly what what happened to my shoulder night he was on CBS oh yes oh like what the team was like or like well as we mentioned Boyd Crofton designed our outfits and he was very wise to design the outfits to fit the bodies for instance you know Lamont was tall and thin Ron was rounded he wanted everyone to look their best so he didn't they weren't like copycat designs for each person yes yes he did I mean he would come up with these sketches all the time you know we would go in and look at the sketches and say hey we like this we don't like that yeah and also you know uh there was the Psychedelic influence that was happening at that time which Peter Max had a lot to do with but uh then again Boyd klopped and Hannah Boyd Clapton had his own vision and design and ideas and the thing that was so beautiful about the special was that all of those elements all of those creative elements came together and and uh we were just it was amazing how the the Wardrobe and the and the set design and all of those all of those creative uh creative uh ideas came together and and it looked like it was done by one person but there were a number of people who yeah who put it together and we'd take one more did I come over here any hands over here okay I'll go here one more question please I'm a family member of Dorothea Joyce who composed yes is there anything you could share with uh with your fans about encountering that song and recording it well I remember when when uh when the first time I heard loves Lions ankles and Rhymes I I loved the song I I said I'm not quite sure what it's about but it was it to me it expressed the turmoil of love and the pain and and the confusion and I just thought that her lyrics were so interesting and uh I just I fell in love with the song and I and I always considered it a challenge uh but I was very happy with the way the way it turned out well I haven't gotten the red light yet so I'm gonna go here involved in politics at all politically did you protest or were you basically involved in your art only well we didn't we we didn't get too involved in politics we would we would if it was something that we were interested in uh like if we were invited to do like a a convention a democratic convention in fact we did in Chicago when they had the major ride in 68 and and we were we were working at the auditorium theater we were supposed to perform there and somebody threw a stink bomb in the theater at that particular time so everybody had to get out and when we got out and walked on the street we seen blue helmets and people getting beat on the head it was like oh my God what what's going on out here you know and that was the ride of 68 in in Chicago during the Democratic Convention I think we let our music speak for us we try to create an atmosphere of love and people coming together one thing I remember that The Fifth Dimension did we were we went to Eastern Europe on the state department sponsored tour and at the time it was Communist and I remember specifically that backstage there were armed guards with dogs to make sure that there would be no riots and they ended up asking for autographs and at the end of our show we were terrified because the audience rushed the stage but they wanted to touch us because we were there touched to peace into Freedom it was it was very moving music is very very special and very powerful we have we have a responsibility in our lyrics and everything that we do with our music because it is very powerful and it can bring people together another thing was that was that um we stayed away from the we stayed away from uh getting involved in in politics because everybody in the group didn't agree [Laughter] politics and religion exactly yeah so we decided that we would not allow that to start you know tearing the group apart uh we we agreed about them we agreed about the music and we kept it that way and on that note this has been a wonderful experience for me for the audience [Applause] for Lawrence LaRue Reverend Miller Davis and Madame Marilyn McCoo thank you thank you thank you so much