Pink Narcissus (1971) | Michael Lumpkin, Kelly McKaig

Good evening. Welcome to the Billy Wilder Theater, home of the UCLA Film and Television Archives public programs. I'm May Holm Haung, the archives director, and it's a pleasure to welcome you to the West Coast Restoration premiere of Jim Bidg Goods Pink Narcissists. [applause] For those of you who don't know me, I'm kind of gay and I grew up in a time where queer spaces and community were built in cinema, museums, and galleries and and the clubs. Um, but it's the queer film festivals where I really saw the power of being in spaces with other uh queers. So, as an archavist, I see today's political battles as part of a continuum of movements that began well before my time. Um, and I think of this often as we preserve so many films. To preserve is to remember and to forget is to destroy. We at the UCLA film and television archive [applause] uh where the world's largest queer moving image collection is held are committed to remembering through preservation of film and television history. as these films can really remind us of our purpose. In return, we help bring them back to the screen. This free screening was made possible by an anonymous donor and with the Hammer Museum's ongoing partnership along with the support of the Robert Gore Rifken Foundation Queer Screening Endowment and the Andrew J. Keen Jr. uh foundation. We also wish to thank Jeff Mantor at Larry Edmonds Bookstore who set up the book signing for Kelly McKG's book. Um we sold out of the books. There weren't um uh enough for us to sell, but if you'd like to find um Jeff at the end of the screening and the Q&A, you're welcome to do that. And we will make sure to send books to Kelly to have him sign and then send them back here and get them to you. So, please support your local bookstore and Larry Edmonds. Community partners also make this work visible. Um, we want to thank those for spreading the word to our community. Queer Film LA, led by Jared Vincenti, um, is a fantastic resource for all things queer and film and LA, go figure. Um, Tama Finland Foundation led by Edward Cella is a wonderful organization that shares our mission in protecting and preserving art. We thank Queeil LA and Tom Finland Foundation for serving as our community partners. I want to thank our staff including theater manager Lauren Brown, uh the studentrun theater staff, uh the digital lab, our projectionist Alex Blevens, the Hammer AV team, and um all of you for coming. So, let's give all of these individuals um and folks a round of applause. [applause] Tonight, the archive is honored to present this West Coast premiere of Pink Narcissus, many years in the making. 20 years ago, UCLA, which was actually founded 60 years ago, collaborated with Outfest, the LA Queer Film Festival, to begin protecting and preserving LGBTQIA moving images in a project that now includes over 40,000 items and nearly three dozen restorations. At the time, Pink Narcissus was one of the first films that we had hoped to restore. So when Marcus Who of Strand Releasing and then director of exhibition at the American Film Institute, Michael Lumpin, approached us to spearhead efforts to restore this groundbreaking film, we jumped at the opportunity. To share more about the restoration, allow me to introduce our head of preservation, Jillian Borders. [applause] >> [applause] >> Hi. Um, so originally shot on a mix of 8 millimeter and 16 millimeter, the film was later blown up to six to 35mm for release by the Sherpix company. Um, there are a number of circulating 35mm prints, but many of these were created from one print and are an additional two generations away from the original. So, these prints are soft and focused and have layers of wear built into them. So, enter Kelly McKay, who you might have had sign your book out there if you're one of the lucky few, um, was able to procure a 35mm inter inter negative and 35mm track negative that showed up at an archive by way of an East Coast lab. So, unfortunately, only two out of the four negative reels were found for both picture and sound. After scouring the world for other film prints, including even two prints from Australia, um we were able to find a higher quality 35 millimeter print that had been conserved at the I Film Institute in Amsterdam. So, our restoration utilizes the reels of inter negative and track negative from Kelly as well as the I Film Institute print. The picture was scanned in 4K resolution at Roundabout Entertainment and color graded there by Greg Garvin using James Biggood's photographs as a reference as the film was shot almost entirely in a loft apartment on a non-existent budget as you'll hear more about. Um there was a fair amount of dirt and hair in the original photography. Um as well as some unique doubling of the frames in the initial optical blowup. Um digital clean cleanup has fixed some of these um image irregularities but we've tried to keep the original feel and patina of the film. Um the sound was transferred and restored by John Paleo at audio mechanics. Um the restoration would not be possible without the intervention of many including those providing the crucial elements to a restoration extra expertise surviving elements and resources. The thanks to Iilm Museum, John Costa, Michael Lumpin, Kelly Mcc, Rich Paris, and Strand Releasing for securing and providing access to elements and to Todd Winer at UCLA for securing the materials. We deeply grateful to Frameline, Mark Grabowski, James Woolly, Marcus Who, Michael Lumpkin, David Sten, and Strand Releasing for making tonight possible. And we are so incredibly appreciative to Snapdragon Capital for taking the leap to fund the restoration. Collaborations are crucial in restorations and we are very thankful for everyone involved. Um let's give them and everyone I mentioned a round of applause [applause] and then I'll pass it back over to May to talk a bit about the production of the film. Oh, hi. It's me again. Um, I never heard so much applause for hair in in film gates, but I love an enthusiastic crowd for film restoration. Um, Pink Narcissus was filmed by James Biggood over seven years, creating the sets and costumes for Pink Narcissus in his cramped Manhattan apartment where he shot most of the film's flamboyant scenes on 8mm Kodakchrome film stock. A few years into production and with some modest financial backing, bidgood was able to rent a larger space to shoot the film's final scene with a larger cast and on 16mimeter ectochrome. Seven years into the project, a dispute with the finance years resulted in Biggood taking his name off the film's credits and the film was completed without his participation. Pink Narcissist was released in 1971 with Big Good's credits for director, producer, writer, and photography listed as anonymous as you will see. Um during the nearly 10 years of Pink Narcissist uh that it was in production, the limitations on the public screening of sexually explicit films became less restricted, leading to the so-called golden age of porn. Those changes are evident in the film as scenes introduce more sexual explicitness as they were filmed during the increasingly progressive decade. The film was derided at the time for being a bit campy, but also made for its lush imagery with comparisons being made to lador. Some circles in New York always knew that biggood was the anonymous in the film credits. And as the film found and found a new and receptive audience in the 1980s, more and more Biggood was publicly credited as the film's director. Despite the recognition, Bigg Good still wanted nothing to do with the film. he saw as not his own. But as the years passed, he began to acknowledge his role as the film's visionary creator and appeared at a number of screenings to discuss his life and work, including Pink Narcissus, a film that would have a profound impact on queer culture, influencing artistes, artists ranging from Pier Jael Jill, I always get that wrong, to David Chappelle, and Little Nas X. Um, after the film, I'll be joined on stage with Michael Lumpkin, former executive director at Frameline and International Documentary Association and director and Kelly McKG, the executive of James Bidg Goods Estate and author of the very recently published, as you know, uh, James Bidg Good Dreamlands. Now, I know some of you maybe saw the film when it was originally released. We will not have the same theater bathroom experience as you might have had then. Do not make the theater student staff have to know. I'm just kidding. Sorry. I don't know why I'm saying all that. Um [laughter] okay. So um um one of the things that we were truly sad about when Michael and you know Marcus reached out to us um was that you know he had he passed away uh a few years into the process of us working on this film or or trying to restore the film. And so um we wish he was here but of course we'll have a Q&A afterwards. So, I'm just going to share a few words from him from an interview um in 2006 with Bright Lights Film Journal. When asked about his creative process and how he would like to be remembered, he shared, "I don't stand and I think about these things. I just do them. It's like breathing." Because I want to put my memories or what I think are beautiful ideas or thoughts or feelings, sadness and joy, I want to put those in you because I love them so much. enjoy the film. [applause] >> Um, please join me in welcoming our panelists tonight. Um, Kelly McK worked with James Bidg good for 22 years for the past six years. >> Oh, you don't have to read that whole thing. >> Okay. >> I just I worked with Jim for like 23 years and uh I had a day job and it was my mission to sort of make sure that the [sighs] uh that the work survived. And uh I got to say like I am so humbled by the number of people in this room right now and uh I know Jim would be thrilled. >> Thank you. [applause] >> I do want to read the last line of your bio which you said was really important and it is this is not the life he expected. [laughter] Um Michael is an executive leader and been in the film um and arts community for some decades. and I'll keep it short as well, but you co-produce the documentary Celluloid Closet and are an incredible icon in queer films. So, thank you for joining us tonight. Um, let's start with a bit about how the film was received and the background on his anonymity. Um, can both of you maybe speak to how um that happened? and of course we talked a little bit about in the introduction but also the impact it really had at the time of um its release as well. >> Well he uh I think working on this through the decade of the 60s I mean and as may mentioned at the beginning things were changing around pornography and what you could or couldn't show. Um but but I think when he took his name off of it uh the distributor Sherpix wanted just wanted to get it out and get into theaters. And in May of 71, it opened in New York um at the Cinema Village and another theater in Manhattan and played, you know, for several months and played in a few other cities. And I don't think it made it to LA until about 73 or 74 where it played at the New Art and also at the Paris Theater, which burned down in 76 on Santa Monica. um you know and it it had you know some play as queer cinema was getting seen and acknowledged uh across the country but it it kind of disappeared and it was written about and I was at the time I was studying film and kind of specifically queer film and I was aware of the film but you couldn't see it anywhere and then in ' 84 the New York Gay Film Festival found a 35mm print in New York and screened it. That's where I first saw it. I took it to Frameline the next year and at that time I asked the that distributor was Rumson film, not Sherpics. And I asked them, "Do you want to get rid of it? Do you want to sell it?" Because I didn't want it to disappear again. It had been lost for 10 years. And so they didn't want to get rid of it, but four or five years later, they did. And so I acquired the film at that time. and then released it through Strand. Um, as far as Jim and being anonymous, we knew in ' 84 that's who made the film. It's in those programs of in ' 84 and 85 of the gay film festivals, we acknowledged the director as Jim Bidg good, but he didn't want to have anything to do with it. >> Right. And uh, you know, he would tell anyone and everyone that he directed it. Um, [laughter] he when I met him, he had a wall of VHS porn that he would pirate. Um, and so he had like two favorite video stores where he would rent porn and they knew that he directed it and that, you know, video store culture. So like word would get around that, oh that I know the guy that made that, you know, it was one of those things. And so yeah, by the late 80s, I think that's how uh I came to the film through my friend Scott Ewalt who was from LA. Uh and his he was introduced to it through Bruce Benderson. And Bruce heard through that grapevine that oh this guy that rents a lot of porn in the West Village made pink narcissists. Um, he's talked a bit about home and how he grew up in Wisconsin and how the concept of home was foreign to him until he stepped off of that bus into the city of New York, right? And a lot of his life was lived in his apartment. The film was made in his apartment. Those urinals in his apartment is amazing. What did he think of LA? We are We have a rivalry, right? We always talk about each other. I'm just so curious if he hated us or >> I don't think he hated LA, but I, you know, the man did not leave his apartment. Uh, I was with him for 23, 24 years. I got him to Brooklyn twice. >> Um, and I got him north of 23rd Street like three times. So, like he when I say that he didn't leave his apartment, like it he had a very prescribed routine. like getting him to events was, you know, he was a nervous guy and it was a lot of handholding, >> but he loved Hollywood movies and really recognized what was being produced. He he loved old movies, >> and I think there's so much in this film, um, the lighting, I mean, the camera movements that are that are just pure, you know, that film magic that came out of Hollywood, that's what he grew up on. those rain scenes at the end. I mean, he loved he was born in 33. He loved Busby Berkeley. He loved Esther Williams. He loved the spectacle. And so, this was his version of creating that high Hollywood spectacle on a shoestring budget in a four room tenement apartment. >> Yeah. I mean, I was reading that he talked about being inspired by the colors of the film The Red Shoes. Oh, he loved Powell and Presburgger >> and how it really, you know, struck him that it would be really important to kind of bring those colors into his work. Um, and then I think he remarked at some point like I don't even know where you can find that film or, you know, um, if there's even a good print out there. And we actually restored that film. So, I feel very proud to have read that. Um, I'm kind of curious, um, you know, he's so immersed in different types of art forms. What kind of art was he interested in when you knew him or in later in his life? >> He always wanted to get back to photography and I um around 2006 I was able to acquire for him a creative capital grant to make a new body of work. It was photographs um that would be sort of like an extension of the process of Pink Narcissus where he would create the sets, create the costumes, create everything and shoot it himself. uh that became a 10-year project where he spent all this money on stuff, building costumes and sets, and they're all in a storage space near my house in upstate New York right now. Um and they will be going to I'm putting his archive in the Fails library at NYU. Um so I'm very grateful that they're but I've got to work through with what is sort of archival and what's not and what's worth keeping. Um, but he he still loved photography and he but he was an amazing draftsman. He could draw so beautifully and I have a lot of his sketches which um I'm very happy to you know make sure that those live on as well. >> Um he has a quote. I used to burn myself with matches whenever I had an idea to try stop myself from having another idea because it was so painful more painful than the match. um to know I could never fully realize any of these things. And you've talked about one of his more kind of um unseen works or unheard works that he had that was an idea that he had that you wished would come to fruition. Can you speak about that? Is that going also to NYU? >> Yeah. So he created this fouract um sort of audio opera called [ __ ] the Pretty Good Life of Jimmy Bundle which was basically his autobiography. It tracks the kid from Stoton, Wisconsin coming to New York, going to fashion school, making costumes for the high, you know, the high society ladies, working in a drag club, you know, shooting photography, finding his lover, which so the the chapter after this is the movie comes out in 71. 74 he meets his lover in a porn theater on 14th Street. They are magically happily in love for 10 years. this guy Alan Blair. Um, and he said, "I if I had, if I had another 10 years with Allan, I would have, you know, given up Pink Narcissists. He was, it was the happiest he was in his life." And that really fulfilled him after the movie. And I think it sort of took his mind off of this. And, uh, Allan died in ' 84. Um, he went into a horrible depression. And then, you know, in the early 90s is when the, um, the film started coming back around. And I think that's when Michael got in touch. So, um, yeah. So, but [ __ ] I have on four CDs, which I've, you know, they're now MP3s as well, but, um, that'll be going into the archive. He also wrote a stage musical, which is, you know, more over the top than anything you could imagine. He wrote the music for it. He wanted to, you know, it's basically, it's an allegory of Snow White and the Seven Dwarves and, um, it's kind of wacky, so it's all going to be in there. [laughter] What did he think of this version that the audiences see and what what was missing that he wanted to include that was maybe scrapped when um he had the sort of dispute with the financeers. >> He was never done. So a lot of the time square stuff you sort of saw uh Michael called it the dirty muppet of the you know the ghost. Those were there were supposed to be dozens of those sort of you know um optically printed on top sort of as the the ghosts of Time Square. Um I think that the you know all of that the the the dancing with the beads and the reflections and the the printing of that like that's what took a lot of the time. This wasn't just a straight you know shot reverse shot wide shot closeup kind of cut. it was, you know, experimental and and that just took time in 1970 and that the um as Michael said, the um the producers, they wanted to get this into the theater to make some money off of it. So, um he was never happy with it. He accepted that we all loved it, but he couldn't really get behind that. >> Yeah. And I think it was that his his vision I think you know really was far beyond his capability. I think the capability of of just film and filming. I mean it it he would have been one of the most complicated movies if he had had a huge budget right and you know and all the money in the world to do it and the best equipment and and and crew, right? I mean I think >> it would still have been very difficult to make >> the still photography. You look at that stuff and those early pictures from the ' 63 64 all these underwater shots. I tell people like yeah there was no Photoshop with that. Like that wasn't done that was all done in camera in a tenement apartment and it's shocking how um inventive he was but he wanted to apply that to you know if he could complicate it he would. That was sort of his motto and and it it it the um a great during the restoration at Roundabout we were working on it and when the first day we came in to kind of you know start working on it the Roundabout said we'd given them Jim's photos as well this is here are his photos you know this is what this is the guy who made this film that you're restoring and they said they've never had a bar that high of trying to, you know, restore something to the quality of his photos. I mean, you can't you can't duplicate that on film or certainly not 8 millimeter film. Um, but but they they were very impressed with his eye and his talent and uh so I think they were I think really went far and beyond trying to get this um as good as it looks now. >> Yeah. I mean, when when we say it takes a village, it really does because all of the elements came from around the world. Um, you know, Michael, Jill, Todd, all of these folks, Marcus made it happen. But we also work with vendors who spend a lot of time with us getting it right. Um, so that it can go on, you know, place like Criterion or in theaters. Um, and, um, yeah, it's it's really incredible the amount of hours it really takes to do this. It's it's not like just a Photoshop filter or anything. So, um you know, Jim's sensibility and his desire for flamboyance, but also he was really interested too in representation in the types of um you know, characters in this film as as we talked about. Um in today's reading, um folks might have like the moments of brown face might give folks a bit of pause, right? And so I wanted to ask if maybe later in life um as views changed around race and ethnicity if he ever spoke of those parts of the film or reflected on that kind of um you know uh use that he had because you know it's it's it's a little bit surprising for some folks I think. Yeah >> absolutely. But he um he was born in 1933 and he was a very progressive guy and I don't think that he necessarily saw this as you know as complicated and as problematic as it is being read today. Um he had made uh there are examples of in the past where he um you know was told not to use a black model for some of his physique work and instead what he did as sort of a [ __ ] you to Joe Weider who published the physique magazines was he put a black model and sort of gave him like white hair and lightened his skin and he was like this snowflake. Um and that was his [ __ ] you to Joe Weider in 1964 to say like I am gonna put a black man on this cover. So, it's, you know, it's not an excuse by any means, but I I just don't think that he thought of this as um sort of any kind of like offensive imagery. He was very much uh you know, he was shooting in his tent apartment. He had the same actor playing all the characters. He's like, "Oh, I've set this scene in a in a um you know, a bull fighting arena. I need a peasant. I'm going to, you know, put him in brownface." So, it's just it's it's a little cringey, but I don't think that he saw that as at the time. >> Yeah. I mean, he was like he would go to the edge and sometimes not not realize when he was over the edge sometimes, but >> um you know, so we fe see the film get more and more explicit. We talked a little bit about this in the introduction. >> Um the production timeline tracks with these sort of changing attitudes towards sex and homosexuality. Um, we see the impact this has made on queer art in many ways and I know we talked about this a little bit. I don't know if particularly in queer film you've seen that sort of homage um to his work um that's been striking to you. I've seen it and it's I'm like, "Oh, is that like the Fast Love um you know, music video?" Like there's sort of things where I'm like, "Oh, what?" You know, but anyways, I don't know if you you sort of uh anything like that strikes you particularly in queer film. >> I mean, it does. I mean, it it I think it's there. I I think I go back and forth with with this film and Jim's work of like I, you know, I see Jim's work in like gentlemen prefer blondes, you know? I see I I see him, you know, and that's what he was watching and that that influenced him. Um, but I, you know, you know, perhaps, you know, Poison Todd Haynes film there there are, you know, certainly works that kind of go into that fantasy and and beauty and color, great use of color. >> Yeah. I mean, I we were uh interviewed for the UCLA Bruin newspaper, Go Bears. Um and the guy, the interviewer, I don't know if he's here tonight. Um he's a child and [laughter] >> young man, >> young man. Um but he said, you know, how does it feel when somebody like Charlie XCX, you know, talks about her love of pink narcissists? And I went and I looked at the interview, and this was like five years ago. She's like, "I really love Pierre and Gil, but my biggest, you know, crush is James Bidg good and Ping narcissist." And I'm like, "Of course, of course she loves this." Like the 25year-old at the time, like straight British girl, like loves this movie. I mean, I'm like, that to me says everything. >> I did email her manager and said, "If you happen to want to tell your artist [laughter] that we've restored this film, please feel free." [gasps] Um I am, you know, so curious about and I'm going to open up to the audience in a moment. We'll have students with mics um running down to answer or to ask questions. Um so uh to folks who are asking questions rather. Um but before we get to that, what happened to Bobby Kendall? >> Bobby Bobby was a hustler. Bobby was 16. I have the model release signed by Bobby's father because he was underage. Um so he started when he was like 16 and 63 53 so he was born in like 47. So by 70 6970 the Times Square stuff I have the canceled checks. I have that um Charles Lulham who played the abortionist um you know I I have the check that that those scenes were shot in 1969. Um, uh, Bobby was straight, um, and gave for pay and, um, had a friendship slash situationship with Jim. I don't know, you know, but Bobby ended up going to college. He graduated from Queens College with like an engineering degree in the 70s. He moved out of New York. Um, I don't know what his real last name is. Um, I've never met him. I've seen photographs of him from the 70s. Uh he lost his hair during the filming of the the movie and in some scenes he's wearing a rug. Um and I think he just slipped back into society. So if he was born in 46, he's 78 now, I think 79. So it's kind of amazing picturing that sort of beautiful, you know, bloom of a flower. Anyway, >> are you here, Bobby? [laughter] >> All right, so um we have some time for questions. Um wow. Uh first person is really excited about here, but um let's take uh the gentleman in the front >> who uh give us a moment. >> Yeah. >> Who is recording the Q&A, which our Q&A's are on YouTube, y'all. You don't need to record them. >> Feel free to do that. Um uh your question. >> Okay. Terrific. Um, my question is, um, as a student of a lot of the films made in the 70s during the, um, golden age of adult film, I've heard a lot of stories about how people were able to get these films developed, um, surreptitiously because the film labs, a lot of this stuff, they couldn't print legally. So, I was wondering if you knew of any stories about how some of this stuff could have been developed and worked on in post kind of under the gun and under the radar because I've I've heard a lot of different things that that went on. I mean, this the actually the great thing about the the reels that that Kelly had of of original negative. Um, when I got to look at those boxes and open them up, there was the original like notes from the lab and I could see every time a print was made when it was released in 71, there were notes. So, that was amazing. I, you know, at that time this could be shown in theaters. It was being shown in theaters. And I think if it was being shown at a theater certainly a lab is going to take the money to print it. Um so so things were changing as to what you could and could not show. Sure distributed films of the silk straight soft core and during the time in the 60s they were in court more than once you know defending their right to exhibit these films. Uh so they were, you know, actively pushing, you know, these these controls over pornography during the 60s and early 70s. Um but but things like pink narcissist, yes, they could they could go to a lab and get it done. I I haven't heard of any, you know, kind of having to do it at night when nobody else was there. The things I've heard are like in the 70s from um commentary tracks from some of the Vinegar Syndrome releases of those classic films about how they would have deals like with some of the people to make work prints and things like under the table or at night because they didn't or off the books because of the legality. But I mean I'm just glad somebody didn't. >> Yeah, I know. And and honestly like that would have all probably happened after Jim was kicked out of the lab or kicked out of the editing suite. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Thank you for your question. Other questions here? Um >> is that guy >> a gentleman here or sorry person here with the black hat? >> Yeah, thank you. Um you've me we've talked about a little bit the producers on the project. Who were they and were they financing this as a porn film as a softcore film? And then when it was released in theaters you said Cinema Village, was it playing after midnight? Was it porn releases? Like how was it? How did they think about the Was it an art project to them? >> Jim self-funded it and Sherpix came in after photography was complete and uh they gave him nominal funds. I mean it was nothing major that he could he couldn't even remember the amount. Um so but then that's all that I could really talk about. Do you want to talk about um >> Mike? Yeah. >> Yeah. I'm I'm think >> it's what's the question again? [laughter] >> So that that covers the producer part. But the but when it was released in theaters in 1971, was it porn screenings? Was it in >> midnight? They weren't even midnight. No. I mean I like looking at the original ads, you know, in the papers when they were shown, they were showing all day, you know, and they they and there were other films that were similar to it that were playing and I think theaters were were were known for showing a certain, you know, type of film, softcore porn, they may also show late at night and, you know, and they were in the, you know, all the when they used to have the huge list of ads of all the movies playing in town in the times, you know, there's like major Hollywood releases and next to it a much smaller ad, you know, paint narcissus, you know, the cinema village. Um, so it was really out there as as a film doing that business or they were buying the listing so it would get promoted and was was there for months screening. >> And were people seeing it thinking they were going into an artouse film or were they going to a softcore porn cinema to see other softcore? Like >> it was an adult film. >> Yeah. I mean the posters led you to pretty clearly that you were not seeing Bambi. >> Yeah. And it and it was it was you know it was the only place to see films at the time. And you know when I was in college I went to a theater at the square in this small town in Texas to see Lonesome Cowboys. You know that's the only way you could see it. You had to go to a theater and it was on a bill with doctor I'm coming. Uh, so you know, it's >> that old classic. >> Yeah, [laughter] >> piece of adult film here. [laughter] Um, we're getting real nerdy about um, so I um, questions here. I saw a hand up in the back there. >> I'd I'd love to hear about the creative motivation Jim had for making this. And also um the aesthetic reminds me a lot of Jack Smith. So I was wondering if they were friends or worked together. >> He did not know he was very isolated and did not know the New York underground film scene. He did not know Jack Smith. He did not know anyone in the Warhol circle. He did not know um you know the who are the brothers? >> Coocher. >> The Coochars. He didn't know them. Um so uh yeah he he was and he was completely self-taught. He taught himself photography and he taught himself filmm and this this is the fir his first attempt. Um he started the movie because he was shooting uh stills for these physique magazines and then he would shoot these super eight um reels that you could buy in the back of the magazines. It would say you know send away for 10 photos or a you know 3 minute super eight. And then it he just decided like I've got like eight of these now so let me just string them together and create some kind of narrative. And that's how he you know the film really started at towards the end of those uh photography sessions when he had sort of you know a small piece of the entire film. >> Thank you. >> And he was also a drag performer >> earlier. He had been a drag queen at a pre-S Stonewall mafia run bar in the 50s. >> That was a lot. I >> which then became a sex club in the 90s. >> Do are there is there any footage of him or documentation? >> I have photographs. Um they had like those Ouija guys that would run around and take the picture in the nightclub and everyone's going like that and then they would develop it and then sell it to you at the end of the show. and he would do Carol Channing drag and um he had this big gap between when he still had teeth he had this big gap between his middle two teeth and he would always have this like kooky grin on his face and he would do Carol Channing you know he was taking a lot of speed at the time so he weighed like 44 pounds and uh yeah so but that was he was like 22. >> Wow. Um [laughter] >> that was a lot. I was like, I'm taking it in. Um, uh, question here in the middleish. Oh, yes. Jean Jacket, I think. >> Hello. Can you hear me? [clears throat] So, my question is, is the decision to not have dialogue? Is that intentional? because in my brain I was starting to connect like how Fisher is gay semiotics and just ideas around code switching and towards the end of the movie kind of started to read more as like a fable of like aism in the gay community. So I wonder if like >> I think narratively he u absolutely had ideas around story and metaphor and allegory and all of that. Uh he was limited by the technology. the eight mil the double eight that he was shooting at the time did not have sound. Um and it just presented another hurdle for him. So he always planned on it being silent. You sir, >> hi. Um so much of the film is obviously like centered around the music as well, the soundtrack. How much of that was decided in advance? How much of it was just this is what wasn't licensed and they could use? We were actually talking about this before. Um, >> he was not in the editing suite when they put the music together. I think that I know I mean I I knew Jim very well. I think that like the um the vintage stuff and the classical he definitely would have been on board with. Um I think that like the weird Cynthy sci-fi stuff he you know was not really his thing. And then at the end there was the during the Jesus moment there was like the coral piece. Yeah. >> We were sitting outside and I was just like he wouldn't like this. >> Yeah. what I I was um kind of doing during the restoration, I was trying to I was logging all the music and and kind of finding what are those pieces and and there were there's some things like at the beginning it's like weird and I could not make it out and so in my little you know iMovie thing I was working on I I I reversed it and it was one of the classical pieces just in reverse not and that was not you know that was the uh people did the music their choice to to get something find something weird. They just reversed it >> and it worked >> over there. >> Yeah. >> Any information about his connection to Charles Lulham? >> Oh, [sighs] yeah. I he I think that uh he put just put out the every model in that Times Square scene got 15 bucks. Um, I have all the canceled checks from his, you know, um, I don't know what his relationship with Charles was. Um, he, you know, I don't, he had, he saw ridiculous shows. I know that. And he loved them, but they weren't friends. They didn't, you know, I think that this was just an opportunity for Charles to, you know, ham it up. >> Yeah. I think I there was an interview with Jim I that I I came across and he he connected to to Lulham somebody a friend said you should go see him and it was a play he was doing you know just somewhere and Jim was talking about how he gets there and it didn't start for like four hours it was four hours late starting and then he finally you know came on or I think he actually left before it came on but he that was his he was supposed to meet Lelam there to talk to him about the movie, but I guess they eventually connected. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Maybe one more question right there. Mine's not so much a question, but I wanted to comment about the exhibition of the film because I was I was actually a projectionist at the New Art when it first played there, 73 or 74, I can't even remember when, but it was it was being booked by a guy named Shan Sales who owned it before Landmark did. And he was just trying anything to get people into the theater. He was showing old Hollywood classics or screw ball comedies. And then one day they know at work we see oh it starts I think it was Wednesday we were the changes uh pink narcissist and meat rack which was about a hustler in Los Angeles that was a [clears throat] double feature regular admission price and we just showed I mean it was like grindhouse hours but you know five minute intermission then the next show after that and matineese on the weekend and I remember going down to the lobby to use the bathroom for I think Saturday matinea and there was such a long line of men to use a men's room. I like I'd never seen that at the theater before. [laughter] So somehow they found out that that's where he was playing and they came out there. But it didn't encourage there wasn't enough business for Shan Shan to play more gay erotica. He was just you know again trying all sorts of stuff and he owned the part uh the Paris theater so he probably had already played at the Paris. >> Yeah. >> Wow. Thank you for sharing that. Um maybe uh one more question. Y >> over here. Yeah. >> Hi. That was lovely. Thank you for putting together this restoration, all of y'all. Um y'all talk so much about how the photography was really important in the restoration. Um this is just like me not doing my research, but I was really curious if there's any way to like see Jim's photography or if any of the stuff that was being put in the archive was going to be made available online. >> Sure. So, we we had a book here that sold out. Uh, and the guy that was selling the books was in the back, but I don't see him there right now. >> But he is going to be back there. >> Uh, yeah, he So, you can buy the photography book from him. You can, uh, and he will pay for shipping. Uh, he told me, so you can remind him. Um, >> I see someone here with a book. You might Yeah, there books here and you can sort of see them and you can go >> Jim's photography is represented by a gallery called Clamp in New York City. Uh there's going to be an exhibit this summer with a lot of the images that have not been seen that's in the book now. There was an original book that came out in 99 through Tashen. Um it went out of print uh about 15 years ago. Um and that book was sort of like Jim's version of what he wanted. He he sort of saw a circus program as his ideal um venue for his work, which I don't understand, but that's what he wanted and that's what he got. I wanted a more classically traditional art book where it's like one picture per page, really nice printing, nice, you know, full bleed. Um, and that's what we got here. And I love it. I'm so thrilled with the book. Um, so you could maybe check out there's like 10 copies hanging around here right now and then you could maybe get one from the guy in the front after >> and it'll be available everywhere on March 25th. >> Right. March 20. Yeah. Like so this was like they they the publisher helped worked with us to get us these early copies but it'll be um released on the 25th which is uh no Jim's birthday was the 28th so we had to we tried to get it as close to his birthday as possible. >> Well if you do buy it through Larry Edmonds we will ship the book to you to sign right back here and I will I will forge Jim's signature for you. [laughter] Um so I have a final question before we wrap up. Um um I read an interview where Bigg Good spoke a lot about memories and um that all of our memories are tinged by a filter and he said like you know amber or blue and when we think of the past there they have that hue to them and I'm curious I mean you both knew him. Um, so if you can speak about Jim, the person and the hue or the color that you think he'd want to be remembered in. >> Oh, that is so easy. The man loved purple. He wore purple all the time. I bought him purple sweaters, purple shirts, purple socks, purple underwear. Like if it was purple and whatever shade, he loved it. So, um, that was his color. I don't know what chakra that is, but um and what that means, but uh when I think of Jim, I think of purple >> Michael. >> I mean, I I think it would be red. It's close. I I think red. I he I he I heard him he was talking once about um about Hollywood films and how they lit and he was talking about you know you know star of the film wearing a red sequin dress. >> You don't put a white light on the se red sequin dress. You put a red light on the red sequin dress and it just pops. >> Yeah. >> And that's a lot of what this film does. that pops cuz he knew how to lightwe everything. >> Yeah. His his sense of color was extraordinary. >> Thank you both for sharing so much about this film and Jen. >> Thank you. Thank you. >> So grateful to you. >> Thank you.