Liberating Hollywood: Fatso | Jonathan Sanger

[K. J. Relth] Hi, good evening. Welcome to the Billy Wilder Theater. This is the home of public programs for UCLA Film and Television Archive. My name is K. J. Relth. I'm a film programmer with the Archive and it's my pleasure to invite you here tonight for a screening of, "Fatso." Um, so the occasion for this series, and I should say thank you for coming out on a rainy Super Bowl Sunday, ah, for this little bit of counter-programming. [Chuckles] Um, the occasion for this series, um, "Liberating Hollywood," is the publication of a new book by Maya Montanez Smukler, um, about this decade in Hollywood during the 1970's in which more women were employed, as directors for studios and independent features than ever before. Um, it's sort of this watershed moment that lines up quite nicely with, ah, second-wave feminism. And, um, and tonight's film is really special and, um, especially entering into that, um, it's one of the only, just straight comedies that I think we're showing in this series, that, that has a really wonderful heart. And I think that's kind of been the through-line. Maya pointed this out for this whole series and especially this weekend. Um. This strong sense of love and, and, feeling that, that all of these films kind of have and share. Um, and so we're really lucky tonight to have Maya here to speak a little bit about the film. And then, ah, following the film, Maya will be in conversation with the film's associate producer, Jonathan Sanger. He's not here quite yet, but he'll be joining, oh, hi! He's here. Hi, Jonathan. Thank you so much for being here. So he'll be joining us on stage, ah, afterward to talk a little bit about, um, Miss Bancroft and the production and the film itself. So, um, before we get started with the film I would love to invite Maya on stage to say a couple words about it. Maya. [Applause] [Maya Montanez Smukler] Thank you, K. J., and I thank you so much K. J., for all your hard work. I say this every single night of the series, but it cannot be said enough. Yes, I thank, [off camera, unintelligible] Yes, thank you, Jim. I had a lot to manage with this, ah, action-packed weekend. So thank you so much. And thanks to Nate, also. Our theater manager who's made everything run so smoothly. So great to see all you folks here tonight. This is absolutely a special occasion. And I know some of you here were last, were here last night for "Testament." And so this will be a nice, a nice way to just start the week tomorrow, with this really heartfelt comedy. So, during the Seventies, there were, in this pool of sixteen women, who were directing feature films, there were several women who transitioned from established careers in the entertainment industry into directing. And used their established reputation and body of work as actresses and comedy performers, screenwriters, um, to, and documentarians, to, move into feature film directing. So, Joan Tewkesbury, who we started this series with, was already a well-known screenwriter before she directed her first feature. Lynne Littman, who we spoke with last night was already a prolific television documentarian, producer, director before she made her first feature. Elaine May, who we're going to spotlight next weekend, was already Elaine May, by the time she directed, "A New Leaf." Same with Joan Rivers, who was already Joan Rivers, um, headlining Vegas when she made, ah, "Rabbit Test." And, then Anne Bancroft, who by 1979, when she embarked on her, first and only feature film that she directed, was Anne Bancroft. She had been, um, she had already won two Tony Awards. She had already won an Oscar. She was, already one of our most important and iconic actresses. In 1976, she was accepted to the AFI's directing workshop for women, to, work on, to begin her directing career. And that's where she first started with, "Fatso," as a short film. The directing workshop for women was established in1974, at the American Film Institute, which, um, was, is still, um, a conservatory. A very important place for training, ah, the new and next generation of filmmakers. And in 1974, as a way to engage and try and change things, for women who wanted to direct in Hollywood. The AFI established the directing workshop for women as a way to, to really try and, do something different. Not just activism, like so many of the guilds were, um, organizing at the time with women's committees. But to really, to do some hands-on work and train, women, by helping them to make short films that would be calling cards to then, embark on making feature films. And this program is, again, established in 1974 and still exists today. So it's a it's a remarkable program that has lasted for so long. And this is where Bancroft started as a director. And, um, in 1979, she had made that feature film and of course she had her reputation as an actor. And with the support of her husband, Mel Brooks, who of course was already, um, one of our most important filmmakers by the late Seventies. She was able to set this film up at 20th Century Fox. And, um, and we'll be able to talk more with Jonathan about, um, all the details of the film, but in particular, how Miss Bancroft was really interested in hiring and really committed to hiring women, on the crew in a way that had not ever been done before. So, please enjoy this very, very sweet and wonderful comedy, "Fatso." [Smukler] I'm starving. [Jonathan Sanger] It was fun to see that again. [Laughter] [Sanger] I haven't seen it in a long time. [Smukler] [?] service like that. [Sanger] Someone just asked me that same question. Yeah, there was always food around that's for sure. [Sanger] Yeah, we made that, we made that at 20th Century Fox, here in L. A. [Sanger] And, ah, we shot a few days in New York, not a whole lot, but, ah, [Sanger] Because all the interiors were done here. [Sanger] But, um, [Smukler] What was it like shooting in New York then? [Sanger] It was great. Oh, no, I mean, you know, I mean I had come from New York. [Sanger] So I had done a lot of work as, I've been an assistant director, production manager in New York before that and, ah, [Sanger] I had done a lot of movies there, so pieces of movies and, ah, [Sanger] you know, mainly movies would get, ah, I mean, movies that were made in L.A., would, that had a New York background, [Sanger] ah, in those particular days, because the unions and issues of shooting in New York were difficult. Ah. [Sanger] They usually just came for a few days and that was it. So, we did that too, but, ah, [Sanger] It was a lot of fun. It was a great deal of fun doing the movie. And Anne was amazing. I mean, she was just fantastic. Ah. [Sanger] This, I don't know, um, [Sanger] ah, many people may not know it, but Anne, Anne was one of, ah, three sisters. Her younger sister is still alive. I'm not, I doubt if her older one is. [Sanger] But her older sister had a weight problem. And it was based on her own sister, [Sanger] that she wrote the original short film that then she expanded into the feature. [Sanger] And her, her other sister, Phyllis, was her assistant on this and was also, [Sanger] ah, in the opening scene. She was just one of the crying ladies. Yeah. [Smukler] There's so much crying in this film. [Sanger] A lot of crying, yeah. [Smukler] But, you know, it's, you know, often played for laughs but I think for the most part, it's not. [Smukler] It's so deep and meaningful, in a way, into all the characters. [Sanger] Mm, hmm. [Sanger] It was very, very serious to Anne. I mean, in the sense of, Anne, [Sanger] ah, I mean, it meant a great deal to her. The, the story did. And the idea of it and, um, [Sanger] I mean, obviously, there was plenty of humor in it and having Dom who was a close friend of Anne's and Mel's, [Sanger] you know, for years anyway, so, ah, it was, it was really exciting having him in it and, [Sanger] ah, when we were, actually when I was scouting the film with Anne. [Sanger] Ah, when we went to New York, we went to her neighborhood. [Sanger] She had lived in, she was born in Queens, New York. And her original name was Anne Italiano. [Sanger] So, ah, and, and her family lived in, near the Grand Concourse. [Sanger] And then we went, and we went to Dom's house and Dom lived in Brooklyn. [Sanger] And he lived in, ah, just an Italian section in Brooklyn and I met his mother and the apartment and everything was very much like what you saw here. [Sanger] So yeah. [Sanger] We modeled it after that. [Smukler] How did, how did you come to work on the film or how did you come to meet? [Sanger] Well, I had been working, I'd been working with Mel. I had been Mel's, ah, [Sanger] Mel Brooks', ah, first assistant director on a movie called, "High Anxiety," [Sanger] And, after I had done the movie "High Anxiety," [Sanger] ah, we had just become friends. And he said, he had asked me, he said, "Look, my, my wife wants to make a movie. [Sanger] And, ah, I'd love you to do it with her and would you be interested in, you know, in working on it. And I said, "Sure," you know, and, and, [Sanger] ah, another producer, well known producer, Mark Johnson, who was [Sanger] ah, my first assistant director on, "Fatso," had also, had been my second assistant director when I did, ah, "High Anxiety," for Mel. So, [Sanger] we all kind of knew each other. But, um, Mel had asked me to do it and I met Anne. [Sanger] And Anne kept me with her through, the casting process and hiring. She wanted, [Sanger] it was very important to her to hire as many women as she could. [Sanger] Ah, she used Brianne Murphy, who was a cinematographer. One of the first and, I mean there were only two or three, [Sanger] female cinematographers at that time, perhaps, that had ever shot a movie. [Sanger] And we hired her. [Smukler] She was the first female DP on a feature film. [Sanger] I think she was, I think she might have been, I mean, I'm not sure if anyone, you know, actually, you may be right. I'm not, I, [Sanger] I know she, if she wasn't the first, she was among the very, very first who had done it. [Sanger] Um, we, our, our set decorator was a female, Linda DeScenna, we had. Um, I mean, there's many key people as we could have, [Sanger] who were, who were women, we, we tried to hire. [Sanger] Ah, in some cases, and in, Patty Norris who was our costume designer, was, I've used her, I used her on many, many movies before and after. [Sanger] And, ah, she was, ah, very close to Anne. In fact, [Sanger] she was originally going to be the production designer as well as the costume designer. [Sanger] But in those days the, the Art Directors Guild, would not let her. [Sanger] Because she wasn't in the guild as an art director yet. [Sanger] So we wound up hiring a different production designer, who she knew, we all knew, and he was great, a guy. [Sanger] But, um, she, ah, she definitely had a lot to do with the look of it, the movie, yeah. [Sanger] Um, anyway, ah, you know, it was in that respect, it was, it was unusual because Fox and none of the major studios, I think ever had as many, [Sanger] female employees, who were working in, below the line categories, as they had on this movie. I mean we even had, [Sanger] ah, two women in the, ah, electrical department who were actually, [Sanger] you know hanging lights, which is just, there, it was unheard of at that time. There was nobody, [Sanger] women didn't do that. And they just, I mean, they didn't, [Sanger] I mean, in the sense that they weren't in the union, they didn't have the ability to get those kind of jobs. So, yeah. [Smukler] Did, do you know if Anne wrote this for Dom DeLuise? [Sanger] Absolutely. Well, she, she knew that she wanted Dom from the beginning. [Sanger] So, there was no, there was never any question. Dom was tied to it from the very beginning. Yeah. [Smukler] Do you recall her process as a director working with the actors, and in particular, with Dom. [Sanger] Yeah, I do and in fact we, um, she, [Laughs] just a funny aspect of this, sh, [Sanger] was that, Anne, um, I mean, she worked very, very hard on, with the actors. [Sanger] She was an actor's actor herself. She loved working with actors. She, she, ah, essentially, [Sanger] Um, even the casting process was a process for her where she wanted to read with everybody. [Sanger] I mean, it wasn't, she didn't just pick people because of their previous work. She read with every single actor that, [Sanger] was ultimately chosen for the film and many many others. [Sanger] But at the end of the whole process, because Anne, [Sanger] was an actress first, in some ways, although in this particular case, [Sanger] I have to say she was a, you know, she, she knew what she wanted. She was very clear about her choices. [Sanger] Ah, she was very, very well prepared. Always, ah, [Sanger] annoyed when actors were late or anybody did anything like, ah, ah, anything like that. [Sanger] And at the end of the movie, sometime after it, I said, "Anne, what, you know, what do you want to do next? She said, [Sanger] "I don't want to direct again." [Sanger] So I said, "Why don't you want to direct again?" She said, "I don't like working with actors." [Laughter] [Sanger] She said, "They're such, they're all such pains in the asses." That's what she said. [Sanger] And I laughed, but it, but I mean for her, it was a very different, you know, when she was working, [Sanger] Ah, and, in fact, she gave herself, um, [Sanger] ah, I mean, her, her own part was obviously key in this, and she was, ah, [Sanger] you know, she had to, she had to look at herself and it was difficult for her. [Sanger] Um, you know, we had video assist at the very, in a very primitive way in those days so she could actually see, [Sanger] ah, scenes that she was in, but, um, it was uncomfortable for her to do that. [Sanger] Ah, because she was so used to having somebody else tell her, [Sanger] whether she was you know, she had to make those choices and it was difficult for her. [Sanger] But, um, as, ah, you know, she was as comfortable a director as I've ever worked with. She knew what she wanted. [Sanger] She was very, very clear about her ideas. She had no, um, [Sanger] you know, no big doubts about, about what this story meant to her. [Sanger] And, um, not everybody knew that this came out of her history. In fact, I mean, she didn't, she didn't make that a, [Sanger] a fact known to everybody on the set, but I knew it because I had talked to her about it and she had, [Sanger] I'd actually met her sister. And her sister had struggled with weight issues her whole life. [Sanger] And, ah, and, and it was something that, Anne had seen, her older sister, and, ah, it was something that Anne had a tremendous, ah, connection to. [Sanger] So it was important to her. [Smukler] Do you think she ever, struggled or was it, um, [Smukler] I don't know if it was painful or just because it was so personal. Do you feel like, [Sanger] No, I, I, I think, to the contrary, I think she, I mean, struggled, yes, [Sanger] I mean, she struggled with the idea of it. [Sanger] But it was important, it was an important idea to her and, and the authenticity of her own, [Sanger] life experience, was extremely important to her and that's, I mean, the Italian aspect of that life, [Sanger] and, and the life she had grown up in, was, ah, the most important thing to her in it. And that's why, [Sanger] as I say, when we went to New York we went to actually visit the locations that she grew up in. [Sanger] The locations that Dom grew up in. She really wanted to inform the movie with as much of the reality of the world that those characters in her own life had. [Sanger] And that was very important to her. Yeah. [Smukler] It's such a powerful moment when, [Smukler] when Dom has that realization of self-acceptance. And then the whole family, you know, his siblings, do as well. [Smukler] What can you tell us about his approach to this character? [Smukler] Because, of course, he's, he's so charismatic and he just lights up, on the screen. But he's so soulful and um. [Sanger] He is and he was. [Sanger] Um, and he very rarely got opportunities to play this kind of, a role like this. I mean, this was a big deal. And, [Sanger] um, and Anne, she was like his big sister and in, in real life. [Sanger] And, you know, Dom would tend to fall back on his comic background always. He was always, [Sanger] looking for the comedy in every moment. And she would like, get angry. I mean, she would slap him down. She said, "No, no, no." [Sanger] I mean, she would, she'd tell him, you know, "Stop it Dom," you know, don't do, you know, and, ah, [Sanger] I mean, he was great because he kept everybody at a very happy level all the time. [Sanger] I mean, he was, he was the, the happy light of the set. So, it kept everything at a kind of a frothy light thing, ah, time. [Sanger] But, ah, for Anne herself. She took it very seriously and, and she wanted to make sure she knew he had it in him. [Sanger] She knew he would be able to, [Sanger] ah, bring out that emotional center that you see in the movie and that ultimately comes out in the scene, [Sanger] when, you know, when, when she's angry at him and right near the end before he finds out that Candy Azzara wants to see him and all that. [Sanger] And that was, ah, [Sanger] that was, ah, it was a big challenge for him, because it was not, I mean, you got to remember at that particular time in his career. [Sanger] He was doing, "Smokey and the Bandit." He was doing all of those, you know, very, very broad, [Sanger] comedy type movies. And, he had, you know, working seriously, [Sanger] ah, in the way he had to do here, and still maintain his, [Sanger] comic persona, but it couldn't, [Sanger] be, ah, it was very, very important to her, in some ways, to kind of hold him down. [Sanger] She wanted to make sure that he didn't get bigger than the movie. That his part didn't, [Sanger] become so big that, ah, and a particular scene I remember very well, too, was, [Sanger] the, um, he ate the, "ony." When he comes back from, you know, he brings the cake back. [Sanger] And, and you see that there's a big hunk of the cake back. And that was a scene we did, and, um, [Sanger] I remember when she directed it because, the first pass on it was, [Sanger] ah, even in the editing stages, I mean, Dom, [Sanger] he was, he was funny and sad and but, but he was always going for the joke in it and, [Sanger] she kept pushing back against that. She did not, you know, she didn't want him to, [Sanger] ah, to, you know, I mean she wanted to get to the heart of what that issue is, [Sanger] in terms of his, ah, obesity in the story. So that was always going on. [Sanger] I mean, he, he, he completely accepted her as his boss and as his director. [Sanger] No question. I mean, you know as I say she was like a big sister to him. [Sanger] But at the same time, it was a constant push-pull between them. [Sanger] He's a, she was always trying to kind of make sure he did not miss those, [Sanger] poignant, dramatic moments that were very, very important to her for the story. [Smukler] Very successful. I think the film is that, that and, and I love the break in the middle, when it's just kissing. I mean, so much, good kissing. [Laughter] [Sanger] Yes. [Smukler] And what a moment for him. [Smukler] I mean not only in this leading role and to really show his dramatic range. And the way he can go between comedy and drama. But that, [Smukler] it's so romantic. [Smukler] And he's, he's a real romantic lead and the pacing is very slow. [Smukler] I mean, and this, I think is something that we're noticing in these films from this period that, you know, [Smukler] the Seventies the pacing is much different than today. Do you recall how she worked with her editor, or? [Sanger] Yeah, I did. I mean, well Glenn, her editor had, ah, [Sanger] I mean, he had worked on, um, [Sanger] ah, one of Mel's films, I think he had also been, [Sanger] ah, he'd been an assistant editor on one of, one of Mel's early comedies. [Sanger] Ah, and it was important to her. I mean, [Sanger] the interesting thing, and I'll tell you, I mean, just because I knew them and I, I still know Mel and, and, [Sanger] their, their relationship was their professional relationship, [Sanger] as opposed to their personal relationship, was very different. I mean, when she was acting and directing, [Sanger] he was, [Sanger] Mel was extraordinarily respectful of her and he didn't, um, [Sanger] he didn't presume when she was directing to tell her how, what to do. [Sanger] Well, it wouldn't have worked anyway, because she was the stronger, in many ways, of the two. [Sanger] And she, I mean, as many people who knew them both would say, she was actually the funnier one. [Sanger] I mean, Mel is a riot, but, [Sanger] but, Anne was also riot. She was a, she's a, and a very, very strong personality. [Sanger] So, whenever he suggested, ah, [Sanger] at the beginning, when she, when she, when he might have suggested some of the people that he had worked with, for her to work with. [Sanger] She had to be sure that, she, they were working with her because it was her. Not because she, she was Mel's wife. It was, [Sanger] That, that would never have worked. [Sanger] And, ah, and, and even, even when, I mean, I work with her, [Sanger] ah, just after this. [Sanger] Um, and it was pretty soon after this, I produced the movie, "The Elephant Man," in London, and Anne was in it. [Sanger] And, um, everybody assumed that Mel was the reason Anne was in it. It was not that way at all. I mean, he had, he had given us total, [Sanger] choice to pick whoever we wanted. We had talked to Anne and she wanted to play this role. [Sanger] And, um, he would, when we told him he says, "Well, yeah, yeah, um, Anne Bancroft would be very good for that role." And that's what he said. You know. [Sanger] He didn't say Mrs. Brooks. See now, in that respect, he dealt with her, she was an actress. And, ah, [Sanger] In, in this, in the same way. He never imposed anything on her. He wasn't around when she shot. He didn't come around to watch how she, how she worked. [Sanger] He did get to see the dailies sometimes when he wanted to. [Sanger] But, um, she was, she really did, this was her. And, and although she was using an editor. I know the question was about editing. [Sanger] She was using an editor that he had worked with. She wanted to make sure when she, [Sanger] when, and when she talked to the editor that she had a very clear sense of what she wanted out of every moment. [Sanger] And, um, she was, she, she liked the idea of holding on certain things that the editor would have probably wanted to cut a little earlier every time. [Sanger] And I, I sat in the editing room with her a lot. And I know, I know, you know, during that period. [Sanger] And, ah, [Sanger] she made, she made those choices. Because she, she wanted, [Sanger] especially a lot of that came in the relationship with between Dom, [Sanger] and, ah, and, um, Candy Azzara. [Sanger] And, um, I mean, there are a lot of moments that seem like they may go on, I mean, they're just looks. [Sanger] But, it was really important for her not to quick cut between those things. but to let, [Sanger] the moment play. And that's how she wanted to do it. [Smukler] And it's, it's so, I mean, it's so romantic. And you understand they're falling in love. [Smukler] And it's funny because you get to sit with them and watch all their little awkward, [Smukler] tweaks and you know, [Sanger] I mean at the, there is, I remember, [Sanger] there was at some point you, you get the sense of the discomfort of the characters. [Sanger] Because you're just waiting to see what's going to happen and nothing's happening. But that was, that was intentional. That was the whole point, so, yeah. [Smukler] So, in 1980, ah, [Smukler] "Fatso," comes out and, and almost immediately after, during this time you're working on "Elephant Man," and both of these films are, [Smukler] produced by Mel Brooks' [Sanger] company, [Smukler] company and he takes a turn towards more serious work with these two films and "Frances." [Sanger] What had happened, you know, what had happened actually was that, um, [Sanger] When, ah, around, just around the time of, [Sanger] "Elephant Man," and, and, it's interesting because the company that Mel had at the time that this movie was made, [Sanger] and, and, and the other movies that he had made prior to this himself. [Sanger] Ah, and, was involved in were, [Sanger] Crossbow, was the name of the company. [Sanger] Um, and it only became Brooksfilms when we made, [Sanger] ah, "The Elephant Man." So that, um, he had also done, "My Favorite Year." [Sanger] Which, I mean, he wasn't, he was involved in, because it was a story about, ah, his own life. [Sanger] At actually, an event that actually happened in his life. And that hadn't happened, just maybe or, [Sanger] But this one, was the beginning of starting to think about, [Sanger] forming a company, to make movies, other than his own comedies. [Sanger] And, ah, movies where he was afraid to put his name on them because people would think it was, even "Elephant Man." His name is not on the film. [Sanger] But his name's not on the film, may, as, Executive Producer, even though, [Sanger] I brought the film to him, but he, it couldn't have happened without him. [Sanger] And he told me early on in the making of it he said, "Look, I don't want to put my name on it, because everyone will assume it's a a comedy." [Sanger] He said, and that's, you know, "we have to, we have to make a clear division between the things that I do which are my comedies and, [Sanger] "the things that I do that are not." So in that respect, [Sanger] he, he said the first time out, I mean, "Elephant Man," was the first, which was totally not a comedy in any way. [Sanger] So, therefore he, he clearly, made sure his name wasn't, wasn't on it. But his name wasn't really on this either, um, [Sanger] because it was Anne's, it was Anne's project and he didn't want to take away from, [Sanger] from her light. You know that was, that was important to him and probably to her too. [Sanger] She was, as I say, she was a very strong, always a very strong personality. [Sanger] Ah, thing I noticed here, which I, I had totally forgotten, [Sanger] was that you have the scene in the, in the card store, [Sanger] with Anne and Dom. And they're dancing, [Sanger] and it's to, "Sweet Georgia Brown." And it, only it echoed the movie that Mel made some years later which was, um, [Sanger] which was Mel and Anne doing "Sweet, Georgia Brown," in Polish, [Smukler laughs] [Sanger] for, ah, for the, yeah, "To Be or Not To Be." [Laughter] [Sanger] And I, you know, I hadn't remembered. But it just struck me, of course, this was where that began. [Sanger] This was, this was the beginning of that, because it was even used as a, as an under theme during the, ah, in the movie. [Sanger] So, that was really interesting. [Smukler] That is very interesting. [Smukler] Some questions, from the audience? Anybody? [Smukler] Somebody. [Sanger] I hope you enjoyed it. Yes. [Smukler] Please wait for the mic. [Sanger] Oh. [Audience member] This is such a sweet movie. What happened to it after it was released? [Sanger] Well, um, you know, it was, [Sanger] Not much. I mean, it, you know, it played in theaters. Um. [Sanger] You have to remember, at the time when this came out, there wasn't a lot of ancillary markets. [Sanger] There wasn't any streaming. There wasn't any cable or anything like that, didn't exist yet. [Sanger] So that, there were cassettes made. [Sanger] And, um, there weren't DVDs even. They were, they were, you know, [Sanger] ah, video, VHS cassettes which were made and sold. And that was the only other market that the movie had. So it, you know, ah, [Sanger] it is part of the process of, [Sanger] of, of, all of us movie makers to figure out how to market your movie, but unfortunately, we don't usually get a lot to say about it. I mean that's, [Sanger] that was 20th Century Fox, which owns the movie and, um, [Sanger] they did what they did. But, ah, in terms of its theatrical release. [Sanger] And, ah, that was it, you know. It's obviously, [Sanger] ah, still around and can be seen and, and now I'm sure there are ways to get to see it. I don't know. [Sanger] I'm sure you can see it now streaming and otherwise, but, ah, [Sanger] back in those days, you know a movie ran its time. And that was it. You know, it was, it was gone. [Smukler] Well and it's a, it's a daring movie in 1980, considering that Blockbusters are now taking over and 1980s to have like a, you know a small, [Smukler] romantic comedy like this is, um, It's kind of you know, kind of risky, to take, but the studios, [Sanger] Studios don't make these kind of movies anymore. I mean, I mean, they really don't. [Sanger] Um, unless there's a very, very, I mean, I, [Sanger] I'm not negative about this. I'm an independent filmmaker now. And this is what I do. [Sanger] So I do know a little bit about the process, but I do know that, you know, major, [Sanger] major studios make movies that have sequel potential that are comic books that are, [Sanger] ah, you know, ah, you know that are, "Star Wars," that are huge, either, that either they cost 150 million or more, [Sanger] or, there's a, they'd have to be a very special reason for them to make a small movie. [Sanger] They'll make, they'll make two million dollar horror movies. Nothing in between. [Sanger] So, you don't, you don't see, I mean, it's from studios. So that if you want to see good stories, [Sanger] you generally won't see them from major studios. Unless there is a, [Sanger] major star that makes it a, a possible, [Sanger] thing for a studio to want to make. They generally, because they, there isn't enough, [Sanger] I mean, I hate to say it but it is all the economic model. [Sanger] There is not enough in it to justify the expense for them. [Sanger] I mean, there's, there's not gonna be another movie, a sequel or anything else unless they get something else out of it. [Sanger] There's really not much reason for them to do it. And, [Sanger] you know, one of the things that they could get out of it is if there's a star in a movie that, [Sanger] is dying to do a project and we've seen this happen over the years. [Sanger] I mean, ah, ah, Bill Murray did a, did a, did a, [Sanger] a Somerset Maugham movie so, you know, other people get to do movies that you wouldn't normally think a studio would make. [Sanger] But they make them because they have a contract with that star to do something else that they want to do, that, that the studio wants to do and they [Sanger] they'll do one for you and one big one for us. That's kind of how it works. [Sanger] So, you know, it's unfortunate, but, um, [Sanger] I, I think that the marketplace, [Sanger] the marketplace for really good, [Sanger] small movies, like this, should still exist and will still exist. [Sanger] I mean, it, you know, it may not be the theatrical market anymore. [Sanger] You know, it's gonna be, this was, a movie like this would, you know, might be made by Netflix, for a low enough budget. Or for some, [Sanger] streaming service, but unlikely to be, ah, [Sanger] to, for a studio to spend the kind of money it would have to do to advertise a movie like this, [Sanger] knowing that the return might not be big enough for them. So, that's just the way it is. [Sanger] Anybody else? [Smukler] Yeah. [Audience member] Thanks for being here, um. [Audience member] I, I was curious if you could speak to, and maybe not or maybe you don't remember, maybe you and Anne never talked about this, but, [Audience member] the reviews were generally not very positive. [Audience member] And it wasn't treated very favorably, so I'm curious if, you know, [Audience member] she said that she didn't want to work with actors and that was part of her decision to not direct again, but, [Audience member] did the reviews impact her in any way or did she, [Sanger] Probably. Probably. But the thing, it was interesting, because, as an actress, [Sanger] ah, she never read reviews. She would not ever read her reviews. [Sanger] Ah, in anything she did. Good or bad. So that, I mean, occasionally, you know, Mel would read the stuff and occasionally tell her. [Sanger] But she really did not want to be, I mean, it was, it, [Sanger] First of all, she didn't want to put herself through that. And I think this, [Sanger] could have, I mean, I have no doubt that the fact that this was not, you know, didn't get great positive reviews. [Sanger] Ah, could have had an effect on her, [Sanger] ah, desire not to do it again. [Sanger] I mean and, and it was easy for her to say, [Sanger] maybe that it was, it was, you know, one thing and it might have been something else. [Sanger] I mean, I don't think it was something she would have talked about very much. [Sanger] But the truth is, I have no doubt. It would have an effect on anybody who was, who, who had a career, [Sanger] was trying to make, you know, was looking at something else that she wanted to do, because she wrote this, as well as directed it. [Sanger] And she actually wrote, um, ah, another, [Sanger] another script that she wrote later but it wasn't something you know, she didn't want to direct it after this. So that was that. Yeah. [Smukler] Do you know why she decided to pursue turning the short into a feature at this point in '79? [Sanger] Well, I think, it had been very recently before she had been in the, ah, Woman's Workshop, [Sanger] and, um, and Stuart Cornfeld, who had been, [Sanger] ah, working at the AFI. So he was, he worked on a bunch of women's films and, and, ah, [Sanger] ah, he was working for Mel as Mel's assistant, when I came to work for Mel, as Mel's AD. [Sanger] So we all, you know, and it just happened, [Sanger] that, ah, she, ah, [Sanger] felt that, she hadn't complete, she hadn't done everything she wanted to do with this and it was really, [Sanger] the act of sitting down and writing this, the whole script out. When she was able to write it as a feature script, [Sanger] she could then see. Oh, maybe this, maybe this is more than just a short piece. And she, [Sanger] she went ahead and wanted to do it. [Sanger] Um, ah, in terms of how it happened, I think, we were all at 20th Century Fox. [Sanger] I had an office right next to Mel's. [Sanger] And, um, ah, and I think Mel, kind of, [Sanger] helped it along. I mean, wanted to see it happen and helped her, [Sanger] to, ah, you know, but nobody, nobody at studios generally puts up, you know, [Sanger] three or, in those days it was that, this movie cost about, a little over three million dollars. [Sanger] And that was not cheap in 19, in 1978, '79 whenever it was, yeah around that time. [Sanger] And, um, the studio wasn't doing that just as a favor. [Sanger] I mean, you know, they, they were doing it because they hoped they'd make some money on it. So, [Sanger] um, but they did, [Sanger] respect Mel. Mel would never have, I mean, he certainly wouldn't have made a demand, [Sanger] on them for his other movies, because he already had a deal with them. [Sanger] So they had to want to make it and, and Anne had to decide that she was willing to do it, which is how it turned out. [Smukler] In 1978, she gets a another Oscar nomination, for, "A Turning Point." [Sanger] That's right. [Smukler] Interesting that, you know, she's still, [Smukler] um, such an accomplished, working prominent actress, and then she takes this turn at a time when, [Smukler] there's not that many women, but there's not that many high-profile actresses trying to do it either. So quite risky. [Audience member, partially inaudible] How did you know about a second script that she wrote [?] [Sanger] I knew, I knew of it because it was a project that, um, [Sanger] ah, she brought to me and wanted me to work with her on it and we actually, [Sanger] talked about it for a while. I, I'm not going to go into the details of the story, [Sanger] but it was, it was, ah, it wasn't really a personal story. [Sanger] Ah, it was, ah, just another idea that she had, [Sanger] um, and, for a while and I, I don't remember all the details, but I remember a, ah, [Sanger] Avi Lerner, I think was interested in, [Sanger] helping to get it made at one point. And then for one reason or another, [Sanger] it, it didn't happen and, and she, you know, was okay. [Sanger] I mean, she went on to, she was doing something else and we both kind of decided not to pursue it. So, that happened but, yeah. [Sanger] I mean, I, unfortunately, I can't give you much more information about it than that. [Smukler] Yes. [Smukler] Oh, I'm sorry. [?] [Audience member] Which part in the movie did Anne most identify with in terms with her struggles with an obese elder sister? [Audience member] Um, and her other sister in the movie, so where was her other sister and where is all of her, um, I can guess, but I'm curious. [Sanger] Well, I mean, the character of Dom is the closest to the character of her sister. [Sanger] I mean, it was a, the struggle, the weight struggle was really her sister's struggle, her sister, Joanne and, and I'm sorry. [Audience member partially inaudible] It was Anne's struggle too though, wasn't it? [Sanger] No, well, but yes and Anne was, [Sanger] ah, you know, I mean it isn't a, [Sanger] it isn't meant to be um, [Sanger] a bio, you know, exactly biographical study of that. [Sanger] It was just really the idea of what someone goes through because she knew what her sister had gone through. [Sanger] She watched it. And her sister was always having, [Sanger] weight problems, going up and down, going on diets, having, you know, [Sanger] having difficulty. And it was, it was very uncomfortable in her family and, and the, the, ah, [Sanger] the character that Anne plays, [Sanger] was most closely represented by Anne's mother. I mean, you know, that's really who the character was based on. [Sanger] Um, her sister was her younger sister. And her sister was, [Sanger] ah, came out here. She lives in New York and, ah, [Sanger] ah, she still lives in New York and she's great. But she is, she wasn't in the movie business, really. [Sanger] She just came out to work for a while as Anne's assistant and ah, [Sanger] just you know, she was credited. Phyllis Wetzel, her name is. [Sanger] And, ah, you know, she was she was credited on the film, but she, [Sanger] um, she was several years younger than Anne and, kind of, [Sanger] by the time she was really growing up, the younger sister, Anne had already left home and was in Hollywood. I mean, she had already come out here. [Sanger] So her sister idolized her. Her sister, you know, and, and Anne was close, very close to her. [Sanger] Ah, but, ah, you know, I don't think she witnessed her younger sister's struggles. It was really her older sister that was, [Sanger] was the struggles that brought forth the story that you saw. Yeah. [Smukler, sighs] Well, thank you, Jonathan, for coming out and seeing this film and talking with us, [applause] [Smukler] and in a way, for Anne. It's really special to be able to hear your recollections about, [Sanger] She was, she was a terrific lady. Ah, I was, I actually, um, also produced with Mel, [Sanger] um, the musical version of, "The Producers," in 2005. And it was while we were making that film, [Sanger] um, Anne was dying, and, and, Anne, I mean, I, [Sanger] no one knew it. No one on the film knew it. [Sanger] I, because Mel was very private about it and didn't want anyone to know. But he wasn't around a whole lot. [Sanger] I mean, you know, he was around as much as he could and, um, [Sanger] I saw her myself a couple of times and she did one day come, [Sanger] and spend a day on the set with us. [Sanger] Um, and then, but while we were, and she died while we were in post production. [Sanger] So it was a very, it was, ah, you know, it was obviously a, an incredibly sad time, and, um, [Sanger] and I would tell you just, if you don't mind, I'm just gonna tell you, just a short little story. Um. [Sanger] After Anne had died. [Sanger] Just after Anne died, um. [Sanger] We were in post production on the movie and, [Sanger] ah, it was all through the, I guess the fall of, ah, 2005. [Sanger] And almost every night after, you know, we would, [Sanger] ah, we would be in the editing room with, Susan Stroman, who was directing the movie. [Sanger] And I, and I hung out a lot with Mel. And I probably went out to dinner with him three nights a week. [Sanger] Just to talk to him because he was in a period where, he just, he was in a great depressed period. [Sanger] And he just, needed people to talk to. [Sanger] And he, you know, we, we'd walk around in Greenwich Village and he'd say, "Oh Anne and I used to live in that apartment. And this is," [Sanger] You know, he would tell me these stories about the two of them. And this went on, I mean, for weeks, many weeks. [Sanger] I mean, he was not, he wasn't morbid about it, but he was just, ah, [Sanger] you know, he was just recollecting his past and feeling like, [Sanger] ah, I mean, he was married to her for over for, you know, forty years. I mean it was not a, [Sanger] you know a short, [Sanger] relationship. And, and yet Mel had been married before he married Anne and he'd been married to a dancer, [Sanger] from, "Your Show of Shows," which was the show that he had worked on when he started out. He was married to her for, [Sanger] three, I think, three or four years and they had three children. And he's still very close with those children. [Sanger] And, um, and he was close to his ex-wife. I mean she, she remarried very soon after that. [Sanger] He didn't. So, when he met Anne, I mean, she didn't break up his, his marriage. It was just, it was a whole new thing, but when he met her, [Sanger] ah, and, and they they ultimately got married in the early Sixties. [Sanger] Um, anyway, they were together, [Sanger] for the rest of their lives. And everybody who knew them, knew that they were a tremendous couple. They were a great Hollywood couple. [Sanger] They were that unusual couple that always got along great. [Sanger] Anyway, um, his wife, his ex-wife was named Frances [sic]. And, and I'm as I say, I'm going to dinner with Mel and I'm doing this, ah, [Sanger] three, three times a week and he's, he's always telling me these stories which, [Sanger] saddened me because, you know, It was something that he, was so close to him. [Sanger] About, in, into this as we get towards the end of the post production period. We're going to dinner one night and he says to me, [Sanger] he says, you know, "If, ah, if, if Florence," um, oh no, he says, [Sanger] ah, I'm trying to, let me, let me get the words right, because I don't want to kill the joke, but it was, [laughs] um, [Sanger] ah, he said, ah, [Sanger] I think it was, ah, [Sanger] He said, you know, um, [Sanger] Oh, man, I'm trying to remember how it went. Because, I mean, the, the, the gist of it was he said, ah, [Sanger] you know, I, um, ah, [Sanger] Oh, man, I apologize. Now, I'm trying to remember because it was a situation where he had said, ah, that, um, [Sanger] I shouldn't have, I shouldn't have been married, ah, [Sanger] you know, I, I, I should, I should have stayed married to Frances [sic]. I shouldn't have married Anne." [Sanger] I said, "Mel, how can you say that? You had one of the great marriages of all times." [Sanger] "I mean, how, you know, how could you possibly think you shouldn't have gotten married?" He says, [Sanger] "Yeah, well, if Florence had, would have died. It wouldn't have been such a big deal." [Laughs] [Sanger] And it was, I mean, it was, it was one of those crazy moments where you don't know whether to laugh or to gasp. [Sanger] But it was, but I knew what he meant by it, in a way, you know, I mean, he was, [Sanger] he was really so in love with her and, and it was, it was such a big, [Sanger] his relationship with her, was such a big deal. That was it. Yeah. [Smukler] It was his way of showing his love for her. [Sanger] Mm, hmm. [Smukler] That's a wonderful story. Thank you for sharing it. [Smukler] Thank you for coming. [Sanger] Thank you. [Applause]