In the Life: Ep. 1806, "Women Through the Lens"

[Michael Billy] Coming up on, "In The Life." A look back at, "The L Word," as the series comes to an end. [Billy] A conversation with Christine Vachon of Killer Films, and actress Julianne Moore. [Christine Vachon] If you were a gay woman, there was nothing else for you to see where you got to see yourself up on screen. [Billy] And a lesbian classic. [Helen Shaver/Vivian Bell] Are you trying to shock me? [Patricia Charbonneau/Cay Rivvers] No. I was only telling you the truth. [Billy] All this and more on, "In The Life." Documenting the people and the issues shaping the gay experience. [Female Announcer] "In The Life," is funded in part by, the H. van Ameringen Foundation. [Announcer] Arcus Foundation. [Announcer] Newpol Foundation. [Announcer] The Estate of Richard W. Weiland, [Announcer] And by the annual support of, "In The Life," members like you. [Billy] Welcome to, In The Life." I'm Michael Billy. March is women's history month. And we celebrate the representation of LGBT women on television and in cinema. On tonight's episode we look at the popular and controversial, "L Word," series, in its sixth and final season. We sit in on a conversation between longtime collaborators, movie producer, Christine Vachon and leading actress, Julianne Moore, discussing queer cinema and homophobia in Hollywood. And finally, we look back at the groundbreaking lesbian film, "Desert Hearts," with director Donna Deitch, and the film's star, Patricia Charbonneau. [Theme music] In January of 2005, "In The Life," featured a behind-the-scenes look at Showtime's, then hit, new drama, "The L Word." This month marks the end of the sixth and final season. While many love it and others love to hate it, now that it's ending, it will be difficult to find representation of lesbian life and culture on mainstream TV. Tonight, we look at, "The L Word." [Music] [Ilene Chaiken] I sat down with a couple of executives and I said I know this is kind of a crazy idea, [Chaiken] but, I just think we should do a lesbian ensemble drama. [Chaiken] And they kind of looked at me, um, and concurred that it was a crazy idea. [Leisha Hailey/Alice Pieszecki] I didn't have any representation of, of somebody gay on TV. So, [Hailey] I would go into this sort of fantasy world when I watched television. [Hailey] For instance, "Facts of Life," I really thought that Joe and Blair, like had something special going on. [Laughs] [Hailey] It just goes to show that when you're left with nothing you have to sort of make do. [Chaiken] I have some recollections of them saying, I don't think that we could ever sell this to the suits upstairs. [Chaiken] All in the course of a season, everything that was supposed to happen happened. They ordered my script. We went forward. We cast the show. [Chaiken] Um, which was really challenging. [Katherine Moennig/Shane McCutcheon] All these actors have agreed to play these gay characters. And, I don't know why that's such a taboo. Because a lot of people do it. [Moennig] Ah, but with regards to women, again, there hasn't been a show where every female character is gay. [Erin Daniels/Dana Fairbanks] I think the straight world is starting to come out of its closet and say okay here's the deal. [Daniels] These are my friends. These are my brothers, my sisters, my parents. [Daniels] These are people that I care about and I want to see my world reflected, [Daniels] in, in my entertainment and, it hasn't been. [Chaiken] I went to Showtime as opposed to a network, because I wanted to be free to tell these stories as I felt they needed to be told. [Chaiken] I wanted to be frank, especially about sex and sexuality. [Chaiken] Because that's really the theme of the show. [Alice Pieszecki] You are just so gay. [Tina Kennard] So gay? [Dana Fairbanks] I know. I know. [Daniels] I thought that I understood, ah, gay issues and I thought I, ah, was totally in tune. [Daniels] I had no clue. I, you know, and I realize now it's sort of like the minute you start to learn about something, you realize how little you know. [Ossie Davis/Melvin Porter] I don't understand. [Kennard] I'm pregnant. [Porter] And you're happy about that? [Kennard] Yes. [Pam Grier/Kit Porter] Daddy. [Sarah Shahi/Carmen de la Pica Morales] We haven't really come that far when you think about it. You know what I mean, at least, I feel, you know, as a society, in terms of just accepting homosexuality, I feel like we've gotten, better you know as a nation. But have we really, when they're just still discriminatory things that happen every day. [Grier] With it comes an audience, [Grier] who, may not have a good comprehension of the gay and lesbian world. Which is what, I want, what I would love to have for them to come and learn. [Director on set] And action! [Conversation on set continues in background] This is gonna be, [Billy] Some have criticized, "The L Word," for it's polished lesbian characters. Accusing them of not accurately portraying lesbian and bisexual women. [Billy] Still others have been critical of the actors themselves for either being straight or not commenting on their sexuality. [Rachel Shelley/Helena Peabody] As a straight woman to play a, [Shelley] gay character. It's very interesting how other people react to you. [Peabody] I have a secret. [Kennard] What? [Peabody] I've never actually attended, [Shelley talking over herself] A lot of my male friends think it's the most exciting thing ever. Which is kind of odd and I'm a bit disappointed in them I have to say, because they all find it. Really! You're gonna get you're gonna get like together with other women and we're gonna be able to watch it on TV. It's like, [Shelley] And that's obviously what, "The L Word," is up against. [Holloman] I consider myself bisexual. [Holloman] From the minute I was sixteen. I said that in interviews. I said it to, "The Advocate." [Holloman] I've made a commitment. [Holloman] It's to a man. If you want to call me a heterosexual. Fine. I don't really call myself anything now, but married. [Pieszecki] I didn't pay any attention. [Kennard] Yeah, but you guys he's got [?] nine in the plus column and [?] [Pieszecki] But the margin of error is plus or minus five percentage points. [Holloman] Take, you know, someone like Mia or Kate or anyone else. What if they don't want to ever comment on their sexuality? Or what if they change their mind? [Moennig] It's when something kind of invades your personal space. It's you, come out, you don't need to do these things you're promoting a show you're pretty good job that you did. To get people interested and invested in it and to promote it. And, of course you know there's, if people want to know about who you are in real life, but of course, like, there's an element of respect when it comes to that, because, I don't bring my personal life on that screen. [McCutcheon] No, no, no. Look, it's cool. I totally need to make a living. I'm a queer anyway. [Holloman] I get it as a political argument. I get it, I get it that it might be frustrating for some people in their community. but it's just goes right back to, can't we just celebrate the show. Shouldn't we just celebrate the show. [Direction on set, clap board] [Singing] [?] me, she, together, [Shelley] I've done scenes before with men, actors, and, [Shelley] they push it, and they know they're pushing it. A director will call cut, and they will continue, doing what they're doing. And it's like you know, we've cut now you can unhand me. You're not going to get that, with um, on set working, with other women. [Conversation, whooping] [Shahi] When it comes to the sex part of it all, you just kind of got ah, as the straight girl, you got to ask questions, [Shahi] and, and thank God I work with open minded people that have no problems expressing like, well a woman's clitoris, you know what I mean and you just go for it. [Laughter] [Daniels] We get to [?] [Hailey] The funniest thing to me is that, um a lot of straight girls come up to me and they sort of whisper to me that they like the show they're like I really like the show, and they're like sitting next to their boyfriend. [Laughs] Like they're not allowed or something. [Holloman] I think we had some criticism earlier for like oh, [Holloman] it's too lipstick, it's too polished, it's too glammy. I mean I'm from New York, so I mean I had tons of friends in New York, um, you know, gay and straight. They'd be like, whew. You guys are just way to polished. [Daniels] I do get a lot of flack sometimes with, you well, you know, you're not representing this person you're not representing that person and, um, it's true but, [Daniels] we are representing this particular group of people. Obviously, I understand there's political things behind it, but, sometimes you have to just step away and step outside of the box. I don't think the cast of friends is necessarily representative of Manhattan. Um, but it's kind of hard to represent an entire city on one sitcom, let alone an entire community of people on one show. Being, the first of its kind, um, there is so much pressure, to get it right, and there are always going to be people who think we don't get it right. [Daniels] But we get it right for this group. [Director on set] You ready to rumble? Let's do it. It's not like working on another cop show or something. It's just, it has so much meaning behind it. [Conversation off camera] But, but, there's ways, [Hailey] Are we still friends? [Moennig] What? And I am so proud to be a part of something like that. It's funny doing what I'm doing now, being on this show and [Daniels] being, sort of this kind of role model, is, better than anything I probably expected to get out of my career. [Chaiken] Television is the venue in which we get to talk about our lives at large. And we get to keep on saying it because, [Chaiken] our stories don't end. [Chaiken] Television is the perfect medium for that. Everything we do in life should be on television. And should be analyzed. How well we're doing. Where it was. Where it is. And where it's going. [Music and conversation] [Billy] Ileen Chaiken had this to say about the series coming to an end. [Chaiken] I just, feel a little bummed that when, "The L Word," goes off the air in March of 2009, LGB folks stand to be cast back into the desert in terms of primary representation of our lives and stories, in mainstream popular television. [Theme music] Longtime collaborators, whose work together includes, "Safe," and "Far From Heaven," with director Todd Haynes, and, "Savage Grace," with Tom Kalin. Killer Films co-founder and producer, Christine Vachon and actress, Julianne Moore discuss lesbian representation, homophobia in Hollywood, and the state of queer cinema. [Julianne Moore] What do you think the criteria is for Hollywood to get behind a gay story? [Vachon] I think Todd Haynes said something once which I've always quoted. [Vachon] Which is, somebody asked him if Hollywood was homophobic. [Moore] Right. [Vachon] And he said, "Well, it might be. But who cares. Money isn't." [Moore laughs] That's great. [Vachon] And that's the truth. I mean. [Moore] Oh, true, wow. You, know I think it's the same thing will get Hollywood to get behind a gay story. I mean look at, "Milk." You know. [Moore] Yeah. I mean, "Milk," is a terrific script. Um, a terrific director. [Moore] Mm, hmm. Ah, and those two things are pretty much all you need, to get a terrific cast. Which it got. Well, does queer cinema still exist? Because I think, I feel like there was this sort of period, when it was like, queer cinema, queer cinema and I'm like, huh? [Moore] I mean, I don't feel like, [Vachon] Well I think a couple things. [Vachon] I think that it's important to remember that in the early nineties when that phrase was coined. [Moore] Uh, huh. [Vachon] It was kind of coined around, I think that Sundance in particular, where there was, "Swoon," an extraordinary film by Christopher Munch called, "The Hours and The Times," and, "The Living End," Gregg Araki's movie. Yeah. [Vachon] And, um, and then, "Poison," had been the year before. And I think kind of, a couple things, one is, what we have to remember about the early nineties was AIDS. [Moore] Right. [Vachon] And the sense of urgency, that it inspired in a lot of, you know, gay or queer, or whatever you want to call them, filmmakers. [Moore] Right. [Vachon] In a sense that, you know they, that time was running out, and they had to they had to tell their stories. In a sense that, you know, they weren't, if they didn't tell their stories nobody would. Right. Exactly. And also at that time, and even with something like, "Go Fish," which is much more lighthearted, Such a charming, I love that movie. But, even with, "Go Fish," there was no, I mean. Putting that out in the marketplace, I think people are gonna go see this movie because, it's basically about looking for love. [Moore] Uh, huh. [Vachon] It doesn't matter, you know, and that was absolutely true. But people are also gonna go see that movie because if you were a gay woman, there was nothing else for you to see where you got to see yourself up on screen. Right. [Vachon] Now, I think if we released "Go Fish," today, [Vachon] um, I don't think anybody, I don't think we'd be able to release it today. Really. [Vachon] Well, I think, [Moore] Because? [Vachon] that now people have other choices. [Moore] Yeah. [Vachon] You know, they can watch, [Moore] "The L Word." [Vachon] "The L Word." [Moore] Yeah. [Vachon] Exactly. Or, All these beautiful lesbians. [Laughs] [Vachon] Exactly. That's exactly what my life is like. [Laughs] Mine too. Mm, hmm. [Vachon] And, ah, ah, so I mean, but also I think there's just much more choice. I mean there's just, You, know there's, there's television shows, there's means[?], I mean, and also then you know, the notion of, of gay film festivals, was a way of bringing a community together that had no other way to gather. Right. And honestly now with the internet and DVDs, it's, just doesn't feel as, [Moore] Urgent? [Vachon] It just doesn't. [Moore] Yeah. [Vachon] So I don't know, I don't, I, I guess, the, you know, the idea of, there's the idea of what makes a movie gay or not gay? [Moore] Mm, hmm. [Vachon] And then there's the idea of, like is there still really, you know, the, does the notion of a sort of, queer cultural, cinema exist. [Moore] Exist. Well you know, I'm asked that question, ah, occasionally too, ah, because of my work with these so-called queer cinema directors and stuff. And I'm like, well you know, I, I said, I feel like it's sometimes, I feel like it's reductive, right, because you're, you're sort of, you know, you're putting yourself in this little tiny box. When I think women's films that I've made, I feel are about, humanity. It's about what it is to be alive and to love somebody or to be ostracized or any of those kinds of things, so for me it's always, it's very, very much about all of us. [Vachon] Right. You know the queer slash gay community, has never actually ever embraced the work I've done at the time that I've done it. [Moore] Interesting. [Vachon] Except for, "Boys Don't Cry." That, whenever, I got, that I got a free pass on that. Really. But, ah, but, "Safe," I was criticized for not really addressing the AIDS crisis. Oh, come on. [Vachon] And, um, and then, "Swoon," was criticized for, being, remember, there was this whole outcry at that time, that the whole idea of negative images. [Moore] Mm, hmm. [Vachon] That oh, Oh, oh, oh, because they're murderers so you shouldn't have it. [Vachon] Right. [Moore] Yes, yes. [Vachon] Right. And there was around and then remember there's the boycott of, "Basic Instinct." [Laughs] [Vachon] Because Sharon Stone's, Sharon Stone's murdering character was a lesbian. [Moore] Oh, yeah. [Vachon] Although, you know, I, I was a little like, I don't know, you know, she's beautiful. She murders rich, awful men. That's right. Yeah, so you could say, Yeah, so it works for me. [Moore] Yeah. So, um, and then, "Go Fish," was criticized, 'cause then I thought, oh they can't get mad at me about this. [Moore] Yes, sweet little, you know, girls holding hands kind of movie. [Vachon] It's ageist. Ageist! [Vachon] Not have any, you know nobody in it was like over twenty two. Just adorable young things. [Laughs] So, Julie. [Moore] Yes, Christine. Yes. [Vachon] You, you remain committed to doing, ah, smaller movies. [Moore] Uh, huh. You don't seem like you're afraid of first-time directors. Not in the least. [Vachon] And, um, but and that's really unusual. And, um, you know but you still also do, you know, you still do some of those moneymakers too. Yes, you bet I do. [Laughter] You know an interesting thing has happened actually. When I, when I first started doing, when I was, when, Earlier in my career, when I, when I was kind of doing both. There weren't a lot of people doing both. Right. [Moore] It was sort of, it was sort of like you got to choose one or the other. [Vachon] Right. And I always did it, it was purely practical for me. Because, you know, when I, when you do an independent. I would choose an independent film that i wanted to do. And you don't get paid. Right. [Moore] So I didn't get paid, so I would say, well I want it, I want to get paid, so I would do something where, um, where i'd be able to, you know, make a mortgage payment or something. [Vachon] Right. But what has happened, that's very interesting is, now because financing for an independent film has changed so dramatically, it's no longer this idea that you can make a movie for. We made "Safe," for just under a million dollars . That is correct. [Moore] And there was no expectation that, "Safe," would make money. [Vachon] Right. [Moore] The idea in the early days was that you're just gonna make back what you, [Vachon] Right. [Moore] you know, had paid. [Moore] And that was okay. Now, what has happened is, because people are so reluctant to finance an independent film at all, because they feel like, you know, how is this going to ever, [Vachon] Right. [Moore] ever be, ah, um, [Moore] effective. They depend on actors [Vachon] Oh, yeah. [Moore] who have some box office. [Vachon] Right. [Moore] Particularly foreign box office. So, my doing these, these, these bigger Hollywood movies has actually kept my career alive in independent films. [Vachon] Right. [Moore] Does that mean someday do I want to do something where they go, oh you know what, Julie is worth la, la overseas, [Vachon] Right, right. but I can finance a film. And I don't think there's any danger now, I mean, I think that when I first started making movies, there was that thing of like straight actors didn't like to play gay. Really. [Vachon] It really was, actually I think what was more likely, was gay actors didn't like to play gay. Right. It was too hard for them. [Vachon] Because they were so anxious, that. Don't you think also, I mean, I think it's really interesting, because, we both have children around the same age. I, I feel like, ah, ah, the world has changed so much. [Vachon] Absolutely. [Moore] And I also think our sexuality has changed so much. And, and, our kids are growing up in a world where, lots of people in their class have two mommies or two daddies and where my children will say, when we played the game of, "Life," they say, do you want to be married to a girl or boy? Right. [Moore] routinely. Because they know that you can be married to either. Right. [Moore] So, I think that's Well, actually, you can't be married to either, but, [Moore] I know. [Vachon] But, anyway, But they think, [Vachon] Right. I mean we're sort of working that attitude toward, you know, that in some places, ah. [Vachon] Right. [Moore] But, um, what would it take for Hollywood to, ah, produce a movie with a lesbian protagonist? I really have to believe, and this may simply just be the only way I can do what I do. I really do believe that great material, finds its way, somehow to the top. And it somehow gets made. Now, there's been you know there's certainly been, ah, movies that I've spent, as you well know, a very long time trying to make. [Moore] Mm-hmm. But I, I do believe that, like, great material will attract great actors, and will somehow, and I, you know what I mean it for the you know, it's not like "Savage Grace," made twenty million dollars. [Moore] No. [Vachon] But I know that, that movie's gonna be around, and people are gonna continue to talk about it, Yeah. [Vachon] and that it's going to be something eventually, that we'll all be very proud to have in our, in the long body of work, That's right. Yeah, yeah. You know when we're getting our Irving, when I'm getting my Irving Thalberg and you're getting your, [Moore] I'll present you the Irving, Exactly. That's right. [Theme music] [Billy] When it was released in 1986, critics hailed "Desert Hearts," as a film of undeniable power. It was also the first film of its kind that did not involve a bisexual love triangle or kill off its lesbian protagonists. We salute director Donna Deitch and leading lady Patricia Charbonneau for their work in this pioneering lesbian classic. [Car screeching tires, revving engine. "Desert Hearts," is about two women who fall in love when Vivian Bell goes to Reno, Nevada in 1959. There, she meets Cay Rivvers. [Frances Parker] Vivian Bell, Cay Rivvers. [Audra Lindley/Vivian Bell] How do you do? [Rivers] Woooo! [Cay Rivvers] Can I call you [?] [Bell] Vivian Bell. [Parker] [?] [Donna Deitch] I was given this book by a friend, "Desert of the Heart," written by Jane Rule. And I read the book seven times in a row, and I thought, you know, this book, would really make the sort of film that I'm after. [Western music] [Deitch] This was a film that was waiting to be born. [Western music, laughter] [Patricia Charbonneau] When I saw the script and I first read it I thought this is an incredible character. [Bell] Thank you, for a really lovely day. [Rivver] You're welcome. [Deitch] Every time she is around, the energy just has to like change. [Rivver] Good luck. [Bell] Thank you. [Deitch] And what an incredible challenge. [Charbonneau] I loved her from day one. [Deitch] I wanted to make a universal love story, you know, as told through two female characters. [Deitch] About two people, who, an audience would root for. [Deitch] You know, because that's what happens in a love story. They're either gonna root for, these two people, to get together or they're not. [Charbonneau] She picked my picture out of a, stack of pictures in New York here. [Charbonneau] And said, am I right? [Deitch] Yes. [Charbonneau] This girl is like what Cay, [Deitch] Yeah, I said this is how I always imagined Cay Rivvers to look. [Bell] Are you trying to shock me? [Rivvers] No, I was only telling you the truth. [Deitch] When she and Helen got together it was just, um, quite palpable, I mean you could feel the chemistry. It was truly the right combination. [Charbonneau, talking over] Yes, yeah I did. That was true. [Deitch] Mm, hmm. [Bell] Oh, God. [Charbonneau] I knew Helen was around that little corner. [Charbonneau] With her beautiful bathrobe on, her beautiful hair, looking so magnificent. My only clear memory is arriving. The rest is a blur. An absolute blur. [Charbonneau] I'm like going, oh God, here comes the camera, oh my God, here he comes again. [Laughs] Get ready. Do not show fear. [Laughter] Do not show fear. [Laughter] [Deitch] And it was certainly not a scene about showing fear. What do you think you're doing? Waiting for you. [Deitch] Honestly, I think Helen is brilliant with that moment. [Deitch] Just really worked. [Charbonneau] It did. [Deitch] Yeah. [Charbonneau] It's an amazing shot. [Deitch] Yeah. [Charbonneau] Yeah. I'm not, taking off my robe. Well, everybody draws the line somewhere. [Charbonneau] It's a really interesting question when people ask me about the intimacy, because I, I felt, so comfortable. I am, I am one of another four sisters. Um, I've been in an environment of women all the time. We always shared beds we always, I mean, it's just, I definitely come from a very maternal family. And I just never, I don't feel uncomfortable with women. I love being with women. [Deitch] Whether the women are straight or gay women, women tend to be more intimate with other women, than, um, than with men. In terms of friendships. And, um, and so, I really wanted to, I really wanted to mirror that. [Parker] Okay, now start talking. [Rivvers] You're gonna laugh. [Parker] This might be serious. [Lighter snaps] I think I found somebody who counts. [Parker] From the beginning and don't step over the good parts. Well, [Deitch] I didn't want that lesbian relationship to, you know, to sit outside, [Deitch] of you, know other intimate friendships. [Laughing] Well, rock and roll. It sounds a lot funnier than it is. Like the relationship between Patricia's character and Audra Lindley's. [Charbonneau] Mm, hmm. That's, um, full of friction, but it's, it's just incredibly intimate and when you see them talking late at night in bed. [Parker] You come with me. You can quit the casino and go [?] [Deitch] It's full of that, that friction and mixed agendas. [Deitch] And yet at the same time their body language is so intimate, [Charbonneau] It's beautiful. [Parker] I gotta go. [Parker] I'm not staying, so don't squeeze. [Charbonneau] I think the film is so intimate because we were all so intimate. [Deitch] The whole thing was tremendously, you know gratifying. I have not had that freedom, since. [Deitch] Not that much freedom and, and I yearned for it. [Deitch] The word is out. [Charbonneau] The word is out. [Deitch] The word is when though. [Music] We thank you for watching, "In The Life." To learn more about how tonight's stories affect you, or to find out about the issues and people shaping the gay experience, please visit our website at, inthelifetv.org. You can also sign up for monthly air date alerts and download past episodes 24/7. I'm Michael Billy. Thanks for tuning in. And please join us next month. My favorite thing, and I tell this story all the time, is that when you sent me, ah, "Savage Grace," fifteen, twenty years ago. [Laughter] [Moore] No. [Moore] Yeah, when you were, we were children, um no, when, it was, it was six years ago, 'cause my daughter had just been born. That's right. And I called you up, and you said, I knew this was for you. [Laughter] I knew this one was for you. That I appreciated because you know, you were right, I loved it. [Vachon] Absolutely. I have asked people, ask me like, why I wanted to do it. Why would you want to do that? Why? Why is that interesting? [Vachon laughs] Why? And I say, well you know, 'cause it happened. Mm, hmm. [Moore] Yeah. Even though some people like to deny it. [Laughter] [Moore] But, we can't really talk about that. [Vachon] We can't talk about that. "In The Life," is funded in part by, the H. van Ameringen Foundation. Arcus Foundation. Newpol Foundation. The Estate of Richard W. Weiland And by the annual support of, "In The Life," members like you. [Theme music] [Theme music]