In the Life: Ep. 1711, "Talking It Out"

[Michael Billy:] On this month's "In the Life": Sandra Bernhard and Camille Paglia shake things up. [Bernhard:] Just to be gay, just to be a dyke, was never my motivation. If that was what it took, then I would, I would end up being, you know, involved with a man. [Billy:] Talking politics With Richard Kim. [Kim:] The way gay rights will sort of play out in the elections, you have to look back at 2004. [Billy:] And Dr. Marjorie Hill and Wilson Cruz take on some tough issues. [Hill:] Marriage doesn't save one, doesn't protect one. [Cruz:] Yes. Marriage is not a condom. [Hill:] Marriage is not a condom. [Cruz laughs] [Hill:] That's why you need condom sense. [both laugh] [Narrator:] "In the Life" is funded in part by: the H. van Ameringen Foundation; and by Arcus Foundation; and by Agnes Gund and Daniel Shapiro; and by the annual support of In the Life members like you. [theme music] Welcome to "In the Life". I'm Michael Billy. In this episode, we expand our popular Conversation series into a full special hour. In our first conversation, longtime friends, social critic Camille Paglia and the uber- talented Sandra Bernhard talk about celebrating sexuality in their work, the many faces of lesbian identity, and the influence of gay male sensibility in art and culture. Here is A Conversation with Sandra Bernhard and Camille Paglia. [Paglia:] So Sandra, the first time I ever saw you perform on stage was in 1992. The BBC had me go and, and see you. I came backstage and the first time we met. We've had a friendship for a long time now. I, I somehow, I think it's good for us to talk about how gay male sensibility heavily influenced both of us. Can, can you talk about that? [Bernhard:] Well, I mean, it's, it's kind of everything about our - interesting about our culture. You know, the whole, the whole gay camp sensibility. You know, we grew up with it, with Paul Lynde, with Charles Nelson Reilly. When we weren't even aware of that's, that's what it was. You know, in the day when, you know, everybody watched it and laughed and thought it was brilliant because nobody felt threatened by it. And then, of course, the minute somebody put a title on it and put, you know, a description to the face and the sensibility, everybody got intimidated. But for those of us who are creative people, it's something that's just always been a part of our lexicon, and our oeuvre. I'm - I've hung out with gay people, you know, gay men - well I can remember it but specifically, my first, sort of, you know, visceral reaction was when I went to see Bette Midler in 1973, at The Palace Theatre, here in New York City, in her first big show. It was a - I had just come back from working on a kibbutz in Israel for eight months and it was the first time I saw an earring on a man. [Bernhard:] And I was like - I remember I was walking up the stairs and there were all these men. And they were just fabulous and talking, and [with a lisp:] excited and "Oh!" And the, you know, the sibilants and the esses and, you know, and there was a man with the, that little tiny hoop earring. And I say, "Oh! This is a revelation." Well, I think it was like a kind of pre-Stonewall also-style among gay men that, that was shed for a while. And in the 1970s, remember, that kind of clone look with the lumberjack [Bernhard:] Exactly. That was it. [Paglia:] kind of thing and the mustache. Gay men thought it was too sissified and tried, and tried to get rid of, rid of it. It is still, still thriving that, that campy style, among gay men abroad. I find it everywhere in England and, and probably in any gay man, I mean, outside of America. [Paglia:] But I think people are a little uneasy about it now. I find it crucial for, for culture, for theater, for writing, for, you know, for, for comedy in general. And so I think one of the reasons for the impoverishment of our, of current, the current entertainment industry in the United States is because, not only we lost so many gay men through, through the AIDS epidemic, but because that particular style is regarded as kind of quaint or archaic or dated. [Bernhard:] Well also you have to remember that a lot of, of gay men now, have wanted to settle down. They want, you know, marriage. They want their family. They want children. So there's like a whole next wave of being a gay man. Yeah, there's the young gay guys that come to the big cities are still, you know, camping and, and, and whoopsing it up but, it's, it's all influenced by, you know, "Queer Eye for the Straight Guy" and, and that whole mentality, which I think is very commercial and it's not, it doesn't have the originality that, you know, we saw in the '70s and the '80s and even the '90s. The vogueing, the, you know, the street culture. [Paglia:] Yeah. [Bernhard:] Street culture in general, is, is on the wane because it's harder for, for artists and thinking people to live in the cities. It's too expensive. [Bernhard:] The wealthy people come into the city and there's just something about being wealthy, whether you're gay or straight. It takes, it takes a certain element out of your, you know, your persona. Yeah, I think the, I think the young men, yeah, do use wit to, as a form of drama in bars, to, to attract and to communicate and then, but, but why is it that lesbians never have? They don't... Why that's not, that's not the way lesbians, I have no idea. I have no idea how lesbians attract each other. I've always been a total failure, you know, at the social scene. Well, I think... Well, first of all when I travel around America - when I'm in the Midwest, and I see half the women who are supposedly married and straight, I go, "Who's that, who's that overweight, big-ass dyke over there?" And then they're with the whole family, a whole brood and, and some husband and it's like, I think, I think gay women have always found a way to be in a marriage, and just sort of settled. [Bernhard:] And, I just think, you know, I think that there's been a revolution and I was sort of at the, you know, at the eye of the hurricane in the '80s. I was like, you know, seriously attacked for, for being feminine and allowing myself to be sexualized. [Bernhard:] It was all, always done with tongue in cheek. And it was always like, you know, laced with irony, even when I was on the cover of Playboy. And of course, you know, I mean, it's like, when you look great and you work hard to take care of your body, you want to celebrate it. And I don't really think it's about a - really and truly about attracting anybody. It's just, it's really kind of self-aggrandizing. Well, that was the period when you were interested in the fashion industry, as I was. Yeah! Well, when it was, when it was interesting. Right, when it was interesting. And gay men always were, but it was a period in feminism that was very anti-fashion industry and anti-porn, anti-sexual images. [Bernhard:] Right. [Paglia:] So that's one of the reasons that you got, you got hit, as did I. [Bernhard:] I just think, you know, to play out, you know, your comfort with your body and your sex- and your sexuality, I mean, it's like looking at yourself in the mirror while you're having sex. I mean, you're just looking back at yourself and going, "I look fabulous, and I look hot, and I want to be hot." But I don't think it really means anything more than that. [Paglia:] Gay men never had a problem with pornography but you were getting all this stuff from, from Catharine MacKinnon, Andrea Dworkin in the '80s and early '90s, all about how, you know, pornography degrades women without any, any sense that porn is at the heart of the gay male culture. [Bernhard:] I know Andrea has been gone for a while now, but God bless her, she was never a looker. [Paglia:] No. The AIDS epidemic of the '80s or into the early '90s had, had produced a certain kind of militance and hysteria, I think, among, among, among urban gay activists. And you were either with them or against them. And, and you were like persona non grata and so on. It was just, it was a terrible time. A terrible Stalinist time that I'm very glad is over. Ugh! Who isn't? I, I mean, I just think that, you know, it was no, I, I mean, just to be gay, just to be a dyke, was never my motivation. I mean, if that was what it took, then I would, I would end up being, you know, involved with a man. I, I wanted, I wanted, I wanted true liberation. And true liberation is when you control your destiny and your life and, and, and, and your visual, and the thing, things around you. I love glamour. I love comfort. I love delicious food. I like wonderful conversation. I don't want to be depressed. I don't want to be unhappy and I don't want to be on, on pills. [Paglia:] Well these people calling for liberation and tolerance and they're being so intolerant to other people within the movement. I mean, it's just - I was called homophobic. I was the only openly gay person, okay, at the Yale Graduate school in late 1960s! What! But this is the same thing with me. I was on stage, you know, talking about, you know, sexual, sexuality and swinging. And all my pieces were about sexuality and yet, because I wouldn't come out in some sort of an interview and say, "Yes, I am a lesbian," a word I deplore. [Paglia laughs] Unless I'm going to the Isle of Lesbos. Which by the way, we were looking at going to Greece this summer. It is a barren rock of an island. I thought, "Well isn't this interesting." [Paglia:] It's off Turkey actually. [Bernhard:] We got stuck with this freakin' description? You know, I just want to be a woman, you know. And I want to be a woman who is allowed to control her life. And we should talk about the transition in lesbian culture to the lipstick lesbian triumphant, you know, since the early '90s. Now you you were on to two different shows. On "Roseanne" as a lesbian, and then on, on "The L Word" as a straight character. [Bernhard:] Right. [Paglia:] What do you feel, in terms of the way that the culture in general is processing the lesbian image? Well, when I, when I played the character on "Roseanne", you know, originally I came on to be Tom Arnold's girlfriend/wife. And I think that was such a brilliant statement, to be driven to, you know, to the opposites, you know, of sex after you've been, you know, fondled by Tom Arnold. Anybody would want to run into the arms of another woman. [Bernhard:] Roseanne just liked stirring up the controversy more than anything. I don't think, [Paglia:] Well it was pioneering. [Bernhard:] Yeah, it was pioneering. But that for me, playing that role, was just, it was just, you know, it wasn't like she got underneath it and like really like minded, you know, and got political. It was just, it was like funny and crazy. She had the gay men on there. She just wanted to like have a pastiche, have everybody on there representing, you know, the culture and the world as it was. So what do you feel about "The L Word"? [Bernhard:] I've known Ilene Chaiken, who created the show since 1984, when she was an assistant to an agent at CAA. So, you know, she's been observing over the years. [Bernhard:] The thing that she did capture, is like the kind of, like, passing around of women. [Bernhard:] Like there's a small gene pool, you know, of, of availability. The musical chairs aspect. Yeah, you know, so that's true. But then, there's that next level of, like, women that are just like, I don't know, they're just like, they're twisted, they're freaked out, and they call each other like late at night. Or now the whole thing is texting. And like, you know, I know these two women have been texting each other and one of them is like, "You don't want me. This is - I'm a disaster. And, you know, and you're moving in to close. You're moving in too fast. You're not fast enough," It's like that weird, like, so she did capture some of that. I mean, the obsessive lesbian drama aspect of it, I don't think is necessarily good publicity. [Bernhard:] Well. [Paglia:] And the other thing that really bothers me is Jennifer Beals, I think, looks absolutely phenomenal, okay, and really revolutionary character. However, why can't they - lesbians be shown as professionals? Why, why, why can't an ordinary meeting be conducted, okay, without lesbian drama being injected? I mean, I think it's terrible! [Bernhard:] I know! [laughs] It's like they can't separate it. [Paglia:] I mean, I think there could be lesbian drama in the office, but not in the public meeting. And no wonder Jennifer Beals keeps getting fired from job after job. [Bernhard:] Thank you! Of course it's inexcusable. And the other thing too is, she always looks like she's on the verge of crying. [Paglia laughs] There's none of that, you know, there's no carefree real happiness in, you know, in that show. [Paglia:] Yeah. [Bernhard:] You know, she wrote that character so that I could, you know, dress Jenny down, and make her become a more serious writer. But just, you know, it was a fun character. It was a throwaway. To me, the people that I liked best on the show, are Cybill Shepherd. But you know, some of the, some of the ancillary characters are more interesting to me than the main characters. At least it has changed the visual image of the, of the lesbian. It used to be, I mean, people thought, "Oh you can all recognize a lesbian. There's a certain way that a lesbian looked. And now, I think, it's - "The L Word" has made clear there is no... Hah! Yes and no though. I think that they still kind of go for like the cliché, you know, like, like the girl who, like, wears like all leather or, you know, the background actors. They, they obviously find local, like gay girls to like, populate the scenes. I just want to see gay women who are just like relaxed and cool. And, [Paglia:] Yeah. [Bernhard:] you know, moving and grooving, and navigating through life like... And I'd like to see that they would have, they have a work ethic. That, that really bothers me. That would be helpful too! I mean Shane never, you never see her cutting anybody's hair. [Paglia laughs] It's like, "Honey, get back to the salon." [Bernhard:] "Let's get back to work." Your public persona, okay, it's so, you know, utterly unique, just as a, you know, as a, as a, as a stage performer. I mean, what, what do you feel your influences are as a, as a theatrical presence? Well, I've always looked to women, you know, throughout, throughout my entire life that, some are comedic, you know, Mary Tyler Moore. But I love Mary because she to me was like the ultimate bachelorette in her day, you know, she lived that swinging lifestyle to me. That - I always wanted to be a swinger. I didn't care - I wasn't interested in, you know, one sex or the other. I just wanted to be perceived as somebody who was swinging, [snaps] hot, [snaps] knew how to put on a big nice boot and you know, and [snaps] laugh and throw my hat up. You know, that's what I really tried to perfect in my life, is being the carefree, fun, sexy, you know. And then I went to the Julie Christie's and all the European actresses. You know, the Charlotte Rampling's, so that I could have that mysterious pouty, you know, "I was sitting at the bar, you know, smoking a cigarette." Even though I don't smoke or drink. But you know what I mean? I wanted... [Paglia:] You do have a Charlotte Rampling - yes, yeah, that perverse period, where like "The Damned" or whatever, she was playing those sort of S&M things. [Bernhard:] Yes! Exactly. So I've drawn from all the, you know, the greats. And then, you know, comedically, the Bette Midler's and the Lily Tomlin's. But then, of course, I went to my musical influences, you know, Dusty Springfield and Joni Mitchell and Laura Nyro, Carole King. So I had my musical, sexy, hippie thing going on. So I, you know, I'm kind of an amalgam of all these women. And, you know, with a little [tongue pop] free salt of Mick Jagger and Tina Turner. [Paglia, laughing:] Oh right. [Bernhard:] Yeah, 'cause, you know, I always liked Diana Ross. I've always looked to my, my Black ladies for the ultimate in style and, and joie de vivre and sexiness. Well when you burst on the national scene, or international scene really, with "The King of Comedy", that particular, you know, psychopathic, you know, kind of, kind of a role, it was, it was like indelible. It's one of the, one of the great [Bernhard:] Right. [Paglia:] one of the, one of the great crazina [?] roles. [Bernhard:] Scary. [Paglia:] Yeah. And that, [Bernhard:] I didn't do myself any favors with that one either. [Paglia:] You're lucky you didn't get actually typecast playing that kind of role. [Bernhard:] There was - nobody else could create a role like that for me. [Paglia:] This is true. [Bernhard:] So, I, that forced me to go out and create my own, you know, genre of performing. To me, that, that role is like, it's like the role Jessica Walter played in "Play Misty for Me." Yes, absolutely. [Paglia:] It's those two. And it really, there really has been very few roles, you know, have had quite that oomph. I mean, maybe sort of, you know, Sharon Stone as Catherine Tramell in "Basic Instinct". I mean, like sort of walk that line, you know, between sanity and insanity. That was a little campier though. You know, Sharon, Sharon, speaking of a campy man. She's really, that's, I think she really drew from that. [Paglia:] Mmm Hmm. But there are very few great roles for women like that anymore. [Bernhard:] Uh, you're telling me? I mean, it's impossible to find anything because, they want their women to either be, you know, completely subservient and sitting there as passive observers, or if you're gonna be sexy, it's just sort of, you know, Angelina Jolie, "I'll devour you" sexiness. But, you know, there, for a woman just to have that, you know, '70s, '80s, you know, Mary Tyler Moore fun, a little introspective. You know, you can't find those char- I guess Tina Fey, sort of, you know, has walked into those shoes. [Bernhard:] It is difficult to be a bigger-than-life and controversial and sexy and threatening to a lot of people. And don't forget, we're living in a period where, I mean, with Laura Bush, who has just been anesthetized into oblivion. [Bernhard:] Now, now, I mean I love the way for the past eight years those daughters have been kept under wraps. And now in the twelfth hour, they're coming out with their, their books, and their weddings. And we have to endure this? In your stage show, how, how broadly do you deal with politics? Well I've been the most political I've been in, during the Bush administration, just because you couldn't turn the other cheek. I mean, obviously the Clinton era, the most controversial thing was his, you know, sexual peccadilloes. But I never touched on it because everybody, everybody talked about it and I just thought it was too boring. But, you know, I, I talked about the women. Yeah, I talked about Laura Bush. I talked about Teresa Heinz Kerry. I did a very interesting piece about Condoleezza Rice visiting the Martin Luther King Museum and having Rosa Parks, her - the, the, the ghost of Rosa Parks come and have a visitation with her, and have a big discussion about her, her Blackness, and how she was a, she was a, you know, a mark against, you know, her race. Well, it is difficult for women to find a, you know, the proper persona for, for politics in the, in the United States. [Paglia:] You understand, does a, does a woman have to, have to be a mother? Does that normalize her image? Or and if she's a, she's a single woman does that make her strange? [Bernhard:] No! I think, I even think at this point, a woman or a man can be gay. And I think there's, there's probably, you know, obviously they pop out here and there when they go into the more perverse areas, they get exposed. Well, gay men are definitely rising in terms of administrative positions. For example, there are a number of gay university presidents, including at my own university, the University of the Arts. [Bernhard:] Right. [Paglia:] Sean Buffington has just been appointed in the last year. I think it's becoming less and less an issue. And I really believe in the next administration we'll be close to gay marriage. I mean, unless it's John McCain, but you know, I don't, although, I don't think he even cares. Well popular attitudes do seem to be maturing. I think because the younger people don't, just don't care as much about these, these old, you know, hot-button issues. No, they don't. So I think that - I keep telling all my gay friends who are concerned to just, you know, hang tough for a few more years, and they'll have it all. You must represent yourselves and you must speak directly to the public. [crowd chanting:] Say "No" to Cosmo. Say "No" to..." [Man:] I'm trying to create a new sort of gay activism. [crowd chanting:] Don't ask, don't tell! [Woman:] It is time to wake up. You've got to wake up and you've got to make some changes. [Man:] We are going to be taking over City Hall. [crowd cheers] [disco music] [Billy:] Next month on "In the Life": coming off a busy season of LGBT film festivals, we take you inside the Miami Gay and Lesbian Film Festival for their 10th Anniversary, and also celebrate the best of gay and lesbian independent cinema. You need to see new films. You need to see filmmakers talking about the craft of their work. The whole film took on a kind of ease. [Billy:] All this and more on next month's "In the Life". [disco music] I recently sat down with Richard Kim, Associate Editor of The Nation to discuss some of the hard-hitting issues affecting the LGBT community in the U.S. From the politics of marriage to the influence of gay media. Here is A Conversation with Richard Kim. [Billy:] Richard, thanks for joining us. [Kim:] Thank you, Michael. During the Iowa caucus, there's an opportunity for the representatives of the candidates to talk about their main issues that they believe in for their candidates. [Billy:] What I saw on the grassroots level was people talked about health care, yeah, universal health care, safety, the borders, immigration. All these things that are very important. [Billy:] One person spoke on gay rights and civil rights. So, in a time where all these things are incredibly important to this, to the people of this country, where does civil rights and gay rights come into play? Well, you know, one way I'd answer that, is that, you know, gay rights. gay politics have taken something of a backseat in this election. I think that's an appropriate choice. I mean, we have an occupation in Iraq. We have an unfinished war in Afghanistan that we need to get out of. We have 45 million Americans without health care. We have an economy that is sinking every day. We have the greatest income gap this country has seen since 1928. Right? The top 300,000 Americans made more money last year than the bottom 150 million. Right? So these are really big issues and they cut across gay and straight America. They cut across Black and white America. They cut across all Americans. In terms of, you know, the sort of the way gay rights will sort of play out in the elections, you have to look back at 2004. And that actually, if it played out at all was to the Republicans' advantage. They ran these incredibly fear-mongering campaigns around anti-gay marriage initiatives in all these states. They turned out, you know, waves of religious right voters. So I think going into 2008, it's, it's a good thing that there're not that many of these initiatives on the ballot. [Kim:] And it's also a good thing that you looked across at the Democratic candidates and they didn't shy away, right, from gay people. They didn't shy away from appearing on the Logo debate, which was held, the historic debate for, for presidential candidates. They haven't shied away from mentioning gay people in their campaign speeches. Barack Obama says, "There's not a gay America. There's not a straight America." So I think, you know, gay issues and gay people, right, have been, you know, involved in this campaign. I think they've necessarily sort of receded a bit as these very pressing, very urgent issues have come to the forefront. You talked about four years ago. Where are we now? Where is this movement going? We have the web, which is influencing the movement. Is it what we saw, holding hands and singing songs and, and soulful? Or is it more of a new age of activism? [Kim:] The way I would answer that is to say, "I don't think we have A movement anymore. A singular movement." Some of this is because, you know, after Lawrence v Texas, the, the Supreme Court case, which overturned Bowers v Hardwick and, and, and legalized sodomy in this country, there was a kind of splintering off. And, and even before that, right? So you have people that are very invested in getting gay marriage, or some form of civil union on the books. You have people that are looking at Don't Ask Don't Tell trying to get that, you know, off the books and have gay and lesbians openly serve in the military. You have a really vibrant trans movement, right, that is formulating all kinds of new politics around gender expression in the workplace and identity. You have gay people concerned about other sort of progressive issues, that don't really speak about them from just a gay perspective. People advocating for universal health care. People looking at income inequality. A great group that I'm involved in, Queers for Economic Justice, that looks at the way, you know, wealth disparity impacts and, and poverty impacts gay people. So, you have a lot of people, right, doing a lot of different things. And I don't think that's actually a bad thing, right? I think it's a sign of maturity actually, of a movement that has achieved a certain basic level of legal protection and is now looking at other forums and people are prioritizing their, sort of, you know, political action in a different way. The '80s and '90s. ACT UP. Activism. Larry Kramer. The guy's been quoted as saying, "We will not accept crumbs." You know, the passion that was, that was fighting for the gay and lesbian movement at that time. [Billy:] Do we see the same passion in the movement today? The thing to remember about ACT UP, is that, you know, it wasn't just a gay movement. [Kim:] It had a sort of queer energy at its heart, but there were drug addicts involved, sex workers, lots of people of color, actually, who haven't then been documented as being ACT UP, because many of them sort of died earlier than the sort of wealthier white folks, who were in ACT UP. There was this kind of anarchic creativity there. And what did they take on? They took on pharmaceutical companies. They took on the NIH. They took on the CDC, right. They took on government interest. And they politicized AIDS and death and disease and health and all these things in a way. What might we learn from ACT UP? Actually, one of the great victories on the health care front, one of the only victories on the health care front in the past 20-30 years, has been ACT UP. If you are HIV positive in this country today, you will be provided with the necessary medications, either through Medicaid or Medicare, or private insurance or through ADAP, the AIDS Drug Assistance Program. That was an ACT UP victory. So, we need to go back and look at how they did that. Right? And, and, and get universal health care for all Americans in this country. And that wasn't, you're absolutely right, that wasn't by being complacent. That wasn't by just pushing through little legislation here and there. It was about holding massive demonstrations, taking over the stock market, throwing ashes of dead lovers right on the White House lawn. It took direct action. And I think we may need that today, when you look at the sort of entrenched interests of pharmaceutical companies, the, the medical lobby, who are gonna block, right, any plan for universal health care. [Billy:] If you show up to any march or go to any gay pride across the United States, in any major city, you see a multitude of companies that are selling products. You know, it's, it's a sort of tricky thing, because the sort of presence of gays and lesbians on TV, in advertising, all that stuff. You know, I'm not going to say that has had no impact, particularly in shaping the sort of opinions of younger people around, you know, sort of queer visibility. You know, I would say, you know, look at the gay pride parades, which are now - it is sort of unimaginable, right, 10, 15 years ago but supported by Absolut Vodka and [Billy laughs] Subaru or whatever, you know. And I do think you lose something. Right in there, you lose the kind of community building aspect of it. And to a certain extent gay people have become just another sort of a niche market. Right? And that's happened, that's the sort of, you know, plight of kind of diversity in this country, right? That, that you market things to African Americans that are under 35. You market things to older lesbians who have a dog. [Billy laughs] You know, that's sort of like where we are and, and, and, you know, that's a sort of larger corporate, capitalist, kind of, media-saturated society we live in. You know, I don't know what that spells going forward, but, um, you know, there you are. Gay marriage. [Kim:] Yeah. Arguably the biggest initiative. The top priority for the so-called gay movement. I think the main problem here, right, is that we've sort of narrowed our conception of what families, kinship, queer sort of social arrangements have been historically, right? And now we have this kind of idea that this one-size-fits-all thing, marriage, is gonna help all gay people. And it's not. And the reason it's not, is 'cause it doesn't actually help most heterosexuals, right? Most marriages end in divorce. The majority people now live in unmarried households, right? You have both heterosexual and gay people having all these sorts of creative arrangements, raising kids together in unmarried households. Someone might be the person that you turn to for your health care. Someone else might be your roommate. And then another person might be someone named on your will to inherit your property and, and an income should you die, right? So, you have all these very creative arrangements with gay people, right, pioneered, right, in the '60s, '70s and '80s, right? So where is that diversity gonna go? Right? And, and to my opinion, the fight for gay marriage, you know, while I believe in full equality, you know, in front of the law, has sort of short-circuited, right, this other kind of creative energy. Right, about improvising kinship relations, improvising legal arrangements. And I would finally say, right, that's what most Americans need now, right? It's not just a gay-straight issue. You have all these people who are raising children outside of marriage. You have all these people that live in these sort of naughty, interesting, kind of households, right? So, to raise gay rights as a civil rights issue, right, sort of really narrows the way families look. You've written about gay media consolidation. How is that going to affect the movement? Well, you know, I think it's a kind of mixed bag when you look at it. You know, you have PlanetOut, Incorporated, I think that's what they're called and they own both The Advocate and Out and all these websites. Then you have the sort of, Blade chain, that's a sort of chain of independent gay newspapers. So in terms of print publishing, you know, there has been this consolidation. And I think that's a bad thing. I think there - it has sort of limited the diversity of voices. But then you look at the internet, right? And there are all these fantastic, fantastic gay blogs. And they kind of actually remind me of the magazines, like 20 years ago. They're sexy. They're kind of cheeky. And they have an ironic tone and they also cover politics, right, on, in this sort of day-in day-out way. I'm thinking of Bilerico, which is this great blog. And Aravosis has this really great blog out of D.C. And, and, and all these sorts of people that are just, you know, blogging, having group blogs, and I think that's the kind of future, actually, of gay media. ["In the Life" theme music] ["Madame Butterfly" music] Hi, this is Patricia Racette. You are backstage at the Metropolitan Opera, where I am rehearsing "Peter Grimes". You are watching "In the Life". In our final Conversation, Dr. Marjorie Hill of Gay Men's Health Crisis and actor Wilson Cruz discuss the status of the AIDS epidemic, the impact of homophobia, and the importance of self-esteem for LGBT youth. Here is A Conversation with Dr. Marjorie Hill and Wilson Cruz. I just think that too many people think, not you, not me, and perhaps not the 45,000 people who were at AIDS Walk, but many people think that it's over. That it's not really a serious illness. That you pop a pill. [Cruz:] Right. I had a conversation with my hairdresser and she said, "Listen, if you have Type B blood, you, you, you have a higher resistance to HIV, right? You can't really get it." And I'm like, "Girl..." [Cruz:] No. Sit down. Get your hands out of my hair. Sit down, right? [Hill:] Right. I mean, you know, and while, you know, as the Chief Executive Officer of Gay Men's Health Crisis, getting my hair done, I can do HIV one-on-one, but you know, there's lots of people... [Cruz:] But, who else is thinking that? Right. [Hill:] ...who are in beauty parlors and barber shops and clubs and grocery stores and schools all across this country, who are not talking about HIV. Well, and here's the thing, you know, part of the, part of the bigger problems, I think, is that: A., there is this, this, this feeling that it's over and that it's, it's a manageable disease. Right? So people are taking it less seriously. But at the same time, we're also, as a community, giving out this message that, we need you to go get tested. And, so, we're trying to in, in - we're trying to let people know that this is still a crisis, but we don't want to scare people from not going and getting tested. And I think, you know, culturally, or even class-wise, I remember growing up and never going to a doctor unless something was wrong. You know, that's what we, you know, we didn't have a lot of money growing up so we went to the doctor when we were sick. [Hill:] Right. [Cruz:] We didn't go to the doctor for preventative reasons. So how do we get people to let go enough of the fear to actually go to the doctor and say, "You know, I need an AIDS test." Well, you know, that I think it's also about - and I just want to emphasize the issue of stigma because you're absolutely right. Lots and lots and lots of people don't go and do preventive health care [Cruz:] Right. [Hill:] for a whole variety of reasons. But to ask your doctor for an HIV test is owning something. [Cruz:] Mmm hmm. [Hill:] It may be owning that you're gay, heaven forbid, [Cruz:] Right. [Hill:] if you don't have a gay- or lesbian-sensitive physician. It may be owning that you're having sex, you know, and as a teenager that's like taboo. [Cruz:] Right. As a woman over 49 and a half, that's taboo. You know, because... Or, or owning the fact that you may not know your partner as well as you think you do. Oh! Now that's a big - [simultaneously:] that's a big one. [laughs] [Cruz:] You know, 'cause there are people who are, who are out there, married who, you know, who need to be getting tested as well. [Hill:] Absolutely. And so, you know, marriage doesn't save one, doesn't protect one. [Cruz:] Marriage is not a condom. [Hill:] Marriage is not a condom. [Cruz laughs] That's why you need condom sense. [both laugh] But, you know, yeah, you, you have to own these things. And it's also you have to be honest with yourself about them enough to go get tested. But then at the same time, we don't want you to think, "Well, now you're, you're dead." If you, if this comes back positive, you're not, you're not dead. Right. It is not a death sentence. [Cruz:] It is not a death sentence. [Hill:] And information is power. But I also think that, that adjacent to the stigma, is also issues of self-worth, and pride or lack thereof, that as African American women, heterosexual or not, as gay men, African American, Latino or not, there are so many messages that say we aren't worth it. [Cruz:] Mmm hmm. [Hill:] That the country doesn't value us. Our communities don't value us. We don't value ourselves. [Cruz:] So then why should we value ourselves? Right. [Hill:] So why get tested? [Cruz:] Right. Exactly. So, you know, how do... I, I don't know the answer to that. I'm asking, I'm asking it to the ether, I suppose, but how do we change that? And I think part of that is maybe having people who represent something to us, out here talking about it. I think you do know the answer, Wilson. 'Cause I see you, living that answer. I mean, I think that while you are a very effervescent and talented and fun person and successful, I would imagine that not every day has been wonderful. [Cruz:] No. [Hill:] And you have persevered and you continue to do that. And I've seen you. I saw you at AIDS Walk, encouraging other people. [crowd cheers] [Cruz:] Look how beautiful you are. Let me hear it! [crowd cheers] They said it was gonna rain today. You brought the sun. [crowd laughs and cheers] [Hill:] I am always amazed at the dynamic power of moving out of who we are as individuals, and coming together as friends, as family, neighbors, co-workers, and people of conscience, to make a difference. AIDS Walk New York is the oldest HIV/AIDS fundraiser and public health education event in the world. And it's really phenomenal because it really is about the power of each and every one of us to influence those people in our lives. Influence them to give money, influence them to get tested, influence them to be aware of HIV. And so, having a seven million dollar event... in this economic climate. [Hill:] in this economic... [Cruz:] It has to be overwhelmingly satisfying to you. You know, the thing that's, that's always been exciting for me about AIDS Walk, has been not only the fact that people get to have this opportunity to raise money and be active in this community. And people want to feel like they can do something. And it gives them the opportunity, but also at the same time, they have an opportunity to honor the people that they have lost. And to me, that's always been the most overwhelming moment. It's when you're walking down the streets of Manhattan and you turn around and there's a mother or a relative, who has a sign in their hand. Well, you know, in many ways, it's a walk of remembrance and commemoration. [Hill:] It's a walk, and I almost said "march" about resiliency, particularly in terms of the gay community. [Cruz:] What does that do for, for our message about stigma? You know, when we see on the news that here is a whole city saying, you know, "this is something we care about." The problem or challenge around stigma is that you really still need strength [Cruz:] Mmm hmm. [Hill:] and support to do that. And, you know, I think, Wilson, your being there, other celebrities being there, give other individuals who don't have your breadth of access the courage to stand up because, "well, he's cool, and he's here." Well, yeah, well I... "And he's good-looking, and he's here." [Cruz:] I've met some of the most amazing people on that stage. You know, I sat next to Ben Vereen one year and I almost flipped my wig. You know, but I think that what, what I hope people understand is that these, you know, quote-unquote celebrities are there for their own personal reasons as well, you know. And, and, and what an incredible honor for us to be there and stand on that stage and see them, the throngs of people. And if, if, you know, our being there means, you know, it gets a few more people in the street then fantastic. But it's also a lot of fun for us. [Hill:] It is a lot of fun. [Cruz:] And, and, you know, I get to talk to people I wouldn't ordinarily get to talk to, and, and I can't believe that I've been doing this for... 12 years now. [Hill:] Oh yeah. You're a regular. [Cruz:] [laughs] I'm a regular. Yeah. Yes. Well, yes. I mean, I, I just want us - I, I want to make sure that people know that, that it, it's necessary. It is... I, I, I need them. I personally need my people, our people to go out and get tested and take care of themselves. Because it's - it is something that we can deal with now. You know, and I've lost too many of my friends, too many people in my own family. And I, and I have people in my life now who are living with this disease, and living large. [Cruz:] Or as Toni Morrison says, "that are as big as life." [Hill:] Yeah. [Cruz:] And they're living them. And I need, I need that. I need to know that we're out there taking care of ourselves. And so I think that in many ways, while condoms and other tools of HIV prevention are key, pride is part of HIV prevention. Education is part of HIV prevention. Having a house, you know, having a home, you know, some place that is yours, and that is safe. [Cruz:] A touchstone. [Hill:] Having people who love you in your life. Being able to be out in the world is HIV prevention. And I remember once I was at a Women and HIV conference and they introduced me as the first African American woman to run, you know, Gay Men's Health Crisis and talked a little bit about that. And I talked about the work in general, but really focused on women, because that was the conference. And when I finished my keynote, I sat down at the luncheon table with a group of women who were from sororities and so forth, and so on, business women. And one woman said, "My, Dr. Hill, it must be really interesting working with the... GAY MEN'S Health Crisis. And I said, "Well, yes... it is really interesting, but not..." [Cruz:] The way you think it is. [Hill:] "for the reasons perhaps that you think. Because as a lesbian, I've done this for a long time." And, and they were sort of [clears throat] taken aback. And I wasn't trying to make her [Cruz:] uncomfortable [Hill:] uncomfortable. Well, I was trying to make her uncomfortable, but I wasn't trying to make her feel bad. But I think the issue of being out, whether someone presumes you are straight, or presumes you're gay. I mean, I just think that part of what homophobia does is reinforce silence. [Hill:] And you can't do HIV prevention silent. Stay tuned for more from Dr. Hill and Wilson Cruz. But first, here's a look at "In the Life" 's October season premiere. [cheering and "Chapel of Love" by Bette Midler] [Woman on left:] We're gonna get married. [Woman on right:] We're gonna get married. [Gavin Newsom:] What a day in San Francisco! What a day in California! [Newsom:] What a day for America! What a day for equality. [Billy:] Tune in for the October season premiere, when "In the Life" takes an in-depth and comprehensive look at the fight for marriage equality in California. ["Chapel of Love" by Bette Midler] [Billy:] When the landmark decision allowing same-sex couples to marry was announced in May, "In the Life" was there on the ground to document this historic moment. [Woman on right:] After being together for 32 years, we can now get married. The sunshine you're seeing today, is sunshine that is now going to extend to every place where it is hard to be a gay person in this country with this ruling. [Woman in foreground:] The best day of my life was when Diane and I met. And so this is the second best day of my life. [Man on left:] California history is now a history of love and we believe Californians are going to stand by love. [Billy:] We'll look at the hopes, fears, and struggles on the front line, as this crucial battle unfolds. [Newsom:] By the way, as California goes, so goes the rest of the nation. [crowd cheers] It's inevitable! This door's wide open now. It's gonna happen. ["Chapel of Love" by Bette Midler] [Hill:] So how you feel about marriage? [laughs] I can't wait to meet somebody to marry. That's how I feel about it. You know, do you know anybody? Talk to me later. [Cruz:] Okay, I will. I'm excited about what's happening in California. You know, I think, I haven't read the whole decision but - 'cause it's a lot, but the thing that was most exciting to me was that the court basically said, "that there's no room for a second class of marriage in the state of California. That all citizens are - have the right to equal marriage." [Cruz:] And, and we're talking about civil marriage here, so all of these arguments from various groups in which [Hill:] Religion. [Cruz:] - where they're talking about religion really have nothing to do with this. We're talking about a civil marriage in which the state of California is recognizing these relationships, some of which have been happening for 50 years. I know a couple, they've been together for 50 years and all they wanna do is be married. So it's, it's very exciting, you know, we're also talking about the validation that these relationships now will have, will get. And, and, and, and what that does to a person and their self-worth. Well, well, first of all, you know, we know from history that separate is not equal. [Cruz:] Hello. [Hill:] And so having different types of institutions for the same thing does not work, but I think that same-sex marriage is good, even for people who have no - for lesbian and gay people who have no interest in marriage, because it sends a message that if you choose to have this civil opportunity, and have your relationship cast in this way, and have the 1,102 rights and privileges that go with marriage, you can have it. [Cruz:] Mmm hmm. [Hill:] And that's like saying, "Well, you know, if you want to go to college, you can go. If you don't want to go, you don't have to." [Cruz:] That's fine too. Right. But you should have that opportunity. Right. And that this is the pinnacle of, of what you want in a relationship. That you are, are sharing a life with somebody, and that that sharing and receiving of life is acknowledged by your government. [Cruz:] That you are no longer - your love is no longer seen as something other. I was on "Rolanda". You know, that's a long time ago, [Cruz:] Wow. [Hill:] you probably don't even remember "Rolanda". Stop it. [Cruz:] I do. [Hill:] Stop it, Wilson. [Cruz laughs] With my, with my parents. [Cruz:] Oh really? [Hill:] And talking about marriage. So this had to be, you know, like before the flood, right? [Cruz laughs] And she asked my parents, did they believe in same-sex marriage. And that wasn't the deal, she wasn't supposed to ask them anything. And my mother kind of like panicked. But my dad said, "Well, if you gonna be with somebody, you oughtta marry 'em." [laughs] And it was so simple. How do we get him on a court? [Hill laughs] You know, but it was so simple. Yeah, because, because it is that simple. [Cruz:] The fight we're fighting right now is for something very simple, like marriage that says, "I just want to love this person. I want to share my life with this person. I want to be able to visit him in a hospital." [Hill:] Yeah. [Cruz:] "I want, you know, I want to share my life with this person." [Hill:] And I think around the HIV prevention connection, is, is both again, around self-esteem, valuing both individuals and relationships. [Hill:] If, if a person feels like, well, my relationship is going to be acknowledged, I'm gonna be acknowledged, I'm going to be validated, then what I do matters. I also think about it in terms of when I, you know, as growing up as a teenager, you know, and coming out and, and figuring out what it means to be a gay man. What, what it must do to our youth to know that they can live a life where eventually their relationships are honored. [Hill:] That's right. [Cruz:] As opposed to growing up in a place where you're, where they're frowned upon and looked down upon. What that does to our youth and what in the end that will do to their self-worth, that will end up helping them what we - do what we where talking about earlier? Well, I mean, just think about it Wilson. I mean, it's sort of like, I go someplace and I say, "This is my girlfriend. This is my girlfriend." And whether it's to my grandmother, to my employer, to the State Supreme Court, that's very different than saying, "This is my wife." [Cruz:] Yeah. It's a, it's two completely different things. You know, you're stating a commitment to this person. This was a wonderful day in the history of California, but what is about to happen in California is going to be mind-blowing because, you know, there's going to be an initiative on the ballot that will try to change the Constitution, and the battle that will rage between the two sides is going to be epic. There's a big state. [Hill:] The struggle continues. [Cruz:] Oh yes. There's no - it's, it's far from over yet. But I do think they're gonna have a hard time passing this initiative. And, and the numbers and, and the polling suggests that it, it all looks very good for us. [Cruz:] That's because we're changing hearts and minds one person at a time. And California really has been doing the hard work for a long time now. But it's, it's gonna be a long haul. [Hill:] Yeah. But you sound hopeful. I do, I - you know, come on. How long have we been fighting this fight? If I, you can't do this kind of work unless you're hopeful. [Hill:] Yeah. You know, and in, in - and I've always said this. It's not really about me. It's not about what it's gonna do for my life. It's about what it's gonna do for the life of my brother, let's say, and the life of, you know, those, those, the youth that I'm talking about, who are watching this. And they need to know that we're doing it for them. I sometimes feel like the LGBT community has a real opportunity to demonstrate the power of one. Joining with the power of others and focusing on those issues that impact us as a community, but also going beyond that. Yeah. Well, we have - I mean, we've, we have a long history of that, you know, I, I'm sitting here and you're sitting here because of the work that so many people, who've gone unnamed, but some of whom we do know their names: James Baldwin, Audre Lorde, you know, Bayard Rustin, Barbara Jordan. These are people who, who walked that walk for us, so that we can sit here and walk a little further for those that come after us. And that's what I think about. That's, that's what keeps me going. [music and crowd celebration] Thank you for watching "In the Life". To see extended versions of our one-on-one conversations, and to download past episodes, 24/7, please go to our website at inthelifetv.org, or call 1-800-627-ONTV. We'd love to hear from you. I'm Michael Billy. Thanks for tuning in and we'll see you next time. [crowd cheering] [music begins] [Woman:] Thank you! Aha! Put it home. [Man:] Put it up, put it up! [crowd cheering] Woo! Thank you for watching! Thanks Mama! [music and crowd celebration] [Narrator:] "In the Life" is funded in part by: the H. Van Ameringen Foundation; and by Arcus Foundation; and by Agnes Gund and Daniel Shapiro; and by the annual support of In the Life members like you. [logo music] [logo music]