Get Used to It: Ep. 95, "3 Generations"

(upbeat music) - Hi, welcome to Get Used To It. I'm Sheila Kuehl your host or hostess as you like. Get Used To It is a show that we do around the country on issues of interest to the gay and lesbian community and everybody else. And every so often, sometimes at the end of the year, we do a show that's really about family, because a lot of our issues these days, in the gay and lesbian community, has to do with whether we are a family, whether we have families, what our families are like, et cetera. So I wanna give you a really cool example of a wonderful family I have three generations here today, essentially to share their lives and their experience with you and with each other, I think is probably the case as well. And I am going to defy convention and instead of starting with the elder in the family, I'm gonna start with, I guess the opposite would be the younger in the family, but to introduce you to them, Emily Gold, who I guess we'll call the daughter and granddaughter, Simone Wallace, the mother and daughter, and Faye Wallace, who is the mother and grandmother. Among a whole lot of other things as you'll see so as I said I'm gonna start with Em. I think the issue for me about our discussion today is really kind of how, as a family with so many changes that so many of you have gone through, kind of how you weathered them, how you felt about each other and stuff. So I think it would help the viewers if they knew a little bit about you starting with you Em and we'll work backwards through time. Tell us a little about where you were born and where you grew up and what your family situation was like. - Born and raised in Los Angeles, At the age of two, mom and my father were divorced and we were living in Westwood at the time. And, my parents both spent equal time co-parenting me because they both lived in Santa Monica. And my father remarried his second wife and my mom subsequently got in a relationship with another woman. So I spent both times, equal times between a gay household and a straight household. - So how much do you remember from sort of early on in your life? Did you remember anything about your mom and dad's split up? You were only like three years old or something right? - I was two I think, I have no memory whatsoever of my parents as a couple. I have their wedding picture to remind me that that did occur. (Sheila and Emily laughing) - Yeah I think that's the case with a whole lot of people. Maybe especially in LA, but I think not. So, tell me what was it like for you, there's really sort of two issues about it? What was it like for you as so many kids are being sort of going back and forth between two households and was it a big difference because one of the households was gay couple or were there other differences? - There was a tremendous amount of differences and that I remember very clearly. With my mom's household, I was an only child. And in my dad's house, I was one of four children, three siblings. And that in of itself was a huge difference, especially considering that I only spent half the time with these other siblings. So I felt part of the family, but also separate in a way, because I was only there half time, With my mom, there was much more of a community atmosphere. I was involved very much, I felt in her life with the bookstore, with the women's building, with the community and I related very much to other adults. In my dad's household, there was a very clear distinction between adults and children and the adults related to each other and the children related to each other and there was not a lot of intermingling in that respect. - That doesn't sound like it had much to do with sexual orientation though. - No, not at all. - This is what I hear from all of my friends that grew up in- - I think that was the least of it, because I was so young that when my mom came out that it felt like this is how I grew up, that there are gay people and there are straight people and there are single people and there are married people and it just, I think I always grew up knowing that there are differences and difference was just good it wasn't something that was bad. - So was that different from some of your friends though? I mean did you feel as though you grew up more, I don't wanna use the word tolerant, but you know more experience with diversity or... - Very much and so much because I was being raised in the height of the feminist movement in Los Angeles. So there was so much going on, not just about sexuality issues, but about feminist issues. And that was just a wonderful experience too, and I think that had a lot to do with the fact that there was a lot of engagement with children and we were part of the family structure and we would have family meetings in my mom's house where I don't remember once a week or so, we would all sit around the dinner table and talk about how we were feeling about being part of the family. And I was about five. I didn't have much to contribute, but I said I liked- - [Simone] You did. - I Liked the plants. (all laughing) Is what I was my contribution. - That was sort of a, I mean that's an aspect of course, Simone will talk much more about those times in terms of your experience with it, but it seems like an aspect of the time this sort of the theory of how we would deal with our children but were there many women in the community that you were engaged in that had children? - No, you mean of my mom's friends and community? Not too many and I think that was nice in a way because there were a lot of women who I was their child in their life and so they related to me on a level where they wanted me as part of their life because they maybe had come out as lesbians and were not gonna be having children in the immediate future anyway. And so there was a very much of a community aspect that included children, in some aspects but I know, I think my mom's gonna talk about in other ways that children were not included so I think it's, but we'll talk more about that later, maybe. - So was it weird for you at school though? Did your friends know that you had two moms and- - [Emily] Three moms. - Three moms that's right. Absolutely. - [Emily] Three moms. - Three moms and one dad. - And it became many more after each got divorced and then remarried, again and again, but, I always felt different in many ways and I think it's hard to separate the reasons for feeling different, but I was very conscious of feeling unique in having the family structure that I did and feeling that I didn't know how to, I think, talk about it and integrate it into sort of what the other kids were talking about with their families. But I felt like it was because they wouldn't understand. I have a very strong memory feeling, not feeling ashamed about it or bad about it, that it was something that people just, our society hadn't quite cut up with, I felt like we were sort of cutting edge and this was the future and this was consciousness and awareness that people just didn't quite have yet. And, so it felt isolating and it felt very different and lonely, but I don't feel like I felt bad about it. - You were never sort of brought to feel ashamed about it I mean it seemed like you were very secure I think I met you when you were 10 or 11, and you seemed pretty secure about your home life, but one never knows. Parents don't even know what their kids go through at school. And you won't sometimes won't report. - I was pretty secretive about it and I made a point of going over to other people's houses and sleeping over at other people's houses and, I just didn't invite people to share that part of my life. And it didn't seem that anybody really noticed, it seemed pretty easy thing to keep secret. - Because a lot of people are ashamed of their parents and don't want anybody to come over to their house for a lot of different reasons. - [Emily] Exactly. - Well Simone, Emily has talked about, I think a pretty unique time actually in the history, not only in LA, but I think around the country. In terms of the feminist movement in the seventies and it certainly, you will talk about Sisterhood Bookstore, which was a real central place and I know Emily has talked about feeling a real part of that and loving to be in the bookstore, but starting a little earlier with you, tell us a little bit where you grew up and how and meeting your husband, et cetera. - Okay. We came to this country, my parents' brother and I in the fifties when I was in elementary school from England and lived in Atwater village and the LAS Files area. I went to John Marshall high school, and I went to UCLA and it was there that I met the man that I married when I was very young. And this was in the late sixties and it was pretty much what was the plan for me, was to stay at home with my parents and meet a very nice Jewish man, preferably an academic and that's exactly what I did. And, a few years later, it was time to have a child and we were blessed to have our beautiful daughter Emily, and in around the early seventies, the women's movement came into my consciousness. The late sixties, early seventies, women started to organize on Crenshaw and Olympic at the Crenshaw Women's Center. And the woman that I met first who was involved actually was the woman that married my brother. And she was going to this woman's center and she wanted to tell me all about it. And as soon as she started talking about the women's movement and feminist thought, it was just, click, click, click, thank God, this is what I needed to hear all my life. And especially as a young adult, and especially as a young mother, we had so little support then and so little understanding for feelings and as soon as I heard the personal is political, the way I took that was, so many insecurities I had, postpartum depression was not ever discussed when I had it. And I was just isolated and so to suddenly discover a women's community where we started sharing our thoughts and feelings was just tremendous. And there was a lot of going to meetings, organizing, everything that we have heard about, talk about I was right in the midst of it and it was very hard to go home. It was very difficult, I was very torn, it was very painful time. - Well, I think it was a real upset for people because often your life is settled, or you have expectations for your life, and it was such a heady time kind of a scary time too. Because it felt like everything was being questioned and that's a very difficult thing. I think sometimes happiness has to do with, in some people's minds, with just not questioning. Kind of like, leave it alone and it'll be fine and we'll just bury all the bad stuff underneath but the women's movement wouldn't let you bury all the bad stuff because we were incessantly talking about everything. And so, it changed your life. - It did change my life and my very closest friend with whom I was partners in the bookstore. The bookstore developed out of the Crenshaw center we were three politically active women in the feminist movement and opened the bookstore in 1972 and very soon after one of my partners, who I said was my closest friend who had actually married my cousin, was a very much of a family operation, suddenly left her husband and it was just shocking to me and set up a new family with her woman partner and with two small children who were Emily's cousins, and it suddenly became harder and harder for me to stay away from that community. We spent more and more time, I spent more and more time with women, with the women's community and I would go home and it would really start to feel like a foreign country. - So you decided to get a divorce? - I did, yeah And I will say that I had a really very nice husband, there was no, I didn't really have a history of extreme negative marriage. It was just that it wasn't a lifestyle that I really wanted to continue. It felt like the institution itself was oppressive, not the actual person. - And was it sort of scary to you to, or, I mean it's hard for me to speak for you because it was both exhilarating and scary as I said and especially I think, when you found yourself, as I assume you did, falling in love with a woman, which was nothing in our generation that was acceptable or allowed, I mean how, what was your process? How did you, to use the old terms, I mean how did you come to terms with this? - Well, it's when you say, how did you come to terms with it, I think it's just a continuous process of coming to terms with it in continuing into the present. It's not something that, I didn't feel comfortable and then suddenly I felt comfortable. I think that coming out, developing an understanding of who one is just keeps, for me anyway, it's just a lifetime experience. And I think that when I first got involved with a woman, when I was first in the women's community, I kept thinking that I was developing self-acceptance and I was there and now looking back, I just see that each year I become stronger in who I am and I keep reevaluating and revising my history. And re-understanding it. - Well, I want to go back to Emily for a second because we didn't really talk to her about what happened to you Em as you went on in your life, in terms of your sexual orientation, which I think is an aspect that is an important element of sort of this discussion, because Simone was married and then made this change, but you are now and always have been, I guess, always a lesbian. And was that a difficult thing for you or easier because you had grown up in this family? - I think it was incredibly fortunate. I feel like my coming to terms with my sexuality was probably the easiest thing that I've had to come to terms with about myself. I recognize at a very young age that I was drawn to mostly women, not girls my age but particularly women that were part of the community. And it was very much of just wanting to be part of and around just these amazing women in my life. And then I started recognizing that I was having crushes and I would go to the movies and tootsie, and I would have a crush on Jessica Lang (all laughing) and so I was 10 and I said to my mom that I'm gay too, I don't remember the exact words that I used. - I bet she does. I don't know, Simone do you remember? - I remember it so well. You see I, as you said, had a very different experience of living in the hetero world, marrying, having a child and later on coming out and I, without really thinking about it, just assumed that if any child of mine would do something similar. And I, at that time, went on speaking engagements periodically, talking about, what it was like to be gay, and have a child and how perfectly okay that was because we had all these statistics about how the children of gay people don't become gay and that was part of the whole conversation about, "Please don't discriminate us again. "Don't discriminate against us. "Don't think we should lose custody. "Our children grow up to be just like your kids." And then suddenly here's my little daughter, growing up, I guess we would've said a tomboy growing very much as a little athlete, tomboy, and then one day when she's 10 telling me that she says, "Mom, I think I have feelings about girls." And it was hard for me to deal with it. And I, just like the stereotype of any mom , I'm saying, "Well Emily, you're young, "you can go through so many different changes and thoughts and feelings, and you might feel this way now, but you might not, don't get too set in your thinking. And basically I said, it's just a phase. - [Sheila] Wow. - And I got over that it was just the initial thought, in terms anyway, so. - No, I understand and I'm thinking here about Faye has gone through this twice now. - [Faye] Now you're really gonna hear it. - Yes, but Faye start by telling us a little about your life, where you grew up. - The typical British housewife. Never worked, just knitted, listened to the radio and wrote and read and that was my life. All this was all a big secret. I'm sure you're aware of that. And then my husband particularly, I mean we didn't know about such things in England. Even when I went dancing and I'd see a couple of men dancing together, I thought, we didn't seem strange then because we just didn't talk about such thing. But of course, I'm going back now into the, 1950, I came here in 1953 and all I had to preface this by saying all this was very secretive. My husband and I used to guess things we would talk and I would say, with Simone and with Emily and back and forth and back and forth, and I spoke less and less about it to my husband 'cause I knew his feelings about this. And it was very difficult to be honest with him, to try and persuade him and you say, "I love them just the same." But it's something you have to accept then. This is how they are. And then when Emily came and suddenly said that, it was really a shock, although I suspected it, I really did. And of course at first I'm saying, and Leslie's saying it's Simon's fault. No, it isn't, she's born like that I read it in the book. (all laughing) I read it in the book and he doesn't really, but eventually he did accept me, you don't stop loving your children. - Well, some people do. - Well, I know that and that's terrible I've argued. In fact I've become so brave lately, see all my English relatives I talked to are all asking me why Emily's not got a boyfriend, why she's not married, and believe it or not I was very brave about a month ago and I said, Beth you know, my Emily is gay. (Faye exclaims) She didn't say that but I knew and I'm sure the minute she got off the phone, she was on the rest of the family telling them. But see, it doesn't bother me anymore because it's just a way of life. - Well, it's clear to me- - It really didn't, but it was a shock at the beginning of course, 'cause it's something I couldn't comprehend at all. In fact I asked, I'm not even going to go into it, I always asked silly questions about it. (Faye and Sheila laughing) - Well, you're not alone believe me we've all had parents. (all laughing) - Shall I tell her the question I asked you about somebody? - [Simone] Sure, go ahead. - Well, I was asking about this young man and everything else, they said I'm very, very close to (indistinct) it is gay and I said well really then is a woman then? See? Because this is how my mind works now I realize, I understand now, that a woman can love a woman and a man can love a man. - Well, but when you- - But it took years. - When you first, I think probably the first shock for you I'm thinking of my mother's own reaction to my sister's divorce. My sister is a straight woman and she got divorced. That was kind of the first. (Faye exclaims) - That was terrible. But I had a feeling that things weren't right between them it just didn't seem so loving somehow. And once had visited them on the Sunday afternoon, he'd been away for something with the Sierra for the weekend. And he came in and he walked across, I mean you come home after a couple of days, you'd get hold of your wife, you'd give it a kiss, hold her, you have a good time. I went in the kitchen with all the dirty washing everything when you going home, I said to Les you know there's something wrong there. (all laughing) I mean, Les go to go out and say for the whole day and he'd come on, give me a hug or something. Really. So I understood the divorce, well we accepted it, let's put it that way after a while. But it's something very foreign to me I couldn't understand. - Sure of course. And did Simone talk to you about this? - No, no we didn't. - I assume that's what you meant by it was a big secret. - That's the problem. see if they've talked about it years ago, I think I would've understood more, but not knowing and always guessing. And I used to say used say, "Who's that good woman in the house?" "Oh, that's Simone's lodge." See, she helps to pay the rent and all that sort of stuff, that was when people asked me question, because at the beginning I was embarrassed you know when you don't understand something and they're not talking about it so that was what I was grateful when Emily told me right at the beginning, she didn't. - [Emily] Right at the beginning 10 years later. - But you must remember, I mean its 20 years ago, it was different then. - Yes it was, definitely different - Nowadays, it's not, I definitely think it's an accepted thing. - Well, and Simone I don't know what your experience was, but you know often these family things and I think it's fortunate that you're all as loving of each other as you are, because there's a lot of acceptance and a lot of of love here, but I know, I wonder about your experience with Maureen in, I think that was your partner when you had talked to Faye and I guess to your dad as well about it, what your experience was in terms of their, I knew you knew that they would be shocked. - Right and I think that what my mother's saying is absolutely right, because when we first started being part of the women's community, we had those of us in my generation, my peers, we had a chance to get used to the idea little by little and as I'm saying, when my partner, my business partner and friend came out, that was like my shock. And then little by little, I started learning, about what it meant. And so I had a lot more time to get used to it. - Why didn't you tell me then? - Well, I think that what happened was I made many, many false starts. I made many, many starts sort of checking, what is it? checking the water, whatever it was. - Putting you to in the water. - Yeah and because of whatever the response I was getting, I knew it was no longer safe to continue in the direction of the conversation. And so, I do remember exactly when I finally decided it was time to really put this out on the table and I don't know if you remember it, but I remember I was having a really hard time talking about it and you said to me, "Are you trying to tell me about the women in your life?" I remember it very clear clearly and it was like, what a relief! She did know, she does know, we've talked about it. What I didn't realize though, that I would have to remind her every few months. (all laughing) I thought you just have one conversation and that's it, but it continues. - Well, it's a difficult thing. I know other parents that I've spoken to, sometimes their concern is this will be hard for you in society. Do you- - [Faye] What will the neighbors think? - Yes, what will the neighbors think about this issue? - [Simone] And how will the neighbors- - And also you had- - And the relations too, they're even worse. - Oh I know, my mother would never tell anybody of beyond California. That was where the boundaries you know for a long time and then of course I became a little more famous as an out person and there was no hiding it anymore. But- - You making things worse though. - [Sheila] Yes. - You're making things worse for yourself, you're only making yourself miserable by that exceptionist anyway. - But you know you are afraid Faye that you will lose that person. That's the major thing, I don't know if this is been the issue, but you think maybe they won't love me anymore or maybe they won't talk to me anymore. - Well, that's right, that's true. Yeah you think that. - [Sheila] And that's what holds people back, I think. - Yeah. But there was also another issue, you had a child and there may have been some concern about what is this gonna mean for Emily? But I wanted to come back to something that Emily talked about, Simone, in terms of this time in history in the seventies and number of women who were recognizing that they were gay, but not many of them had children and there was a whole political issue, about children did you experience that as a, I mean, you were still a young mother. - Right, as Emily said, there weren't that many women with children, and so we were a little bit of a minority, those of us who had children, but I had a few close friends with children. There was the issue of the boy children, she had a son and you know in terms of separatism and at what age were boys excluded from women only space, things like that but it was very, very different than it is now when the women's community and the gay community are so child centered. But as Emily said, she was very unique and she got a lot of wonderful attention and made friends when she was a child that like yourself, that she's still very close to from that time. - But did you experience any critique from the community because you had a child? - I knew that people were critiquing, but I personally didn't really feel it, no, if anything, I felt like the place that I was, whether it was Venice, West LA, Santa Monica, I actually felt valued that people really liked having Emily around and my friends' children also. - And is it different now Em? In terms of how, I mean Simone says the community is very child centered, and you're not a child anymore, but do you experience that? 'Cause you're very active in the community. - There's just a huge surgeons of the gay bee boom, and it's amazing to me, there's a number of organizations that are specifically focused on you know the lesbian moms, and the pop luck dads, and maybe baby for gay people just considering having children and there's a number of family oriented space now that's for parents, gay parents with children. And they're almost, I mean particularly in urban cities, but there's almost in every school, there's a child that has a gay family. And I just think of it as so different from when I was a child. - And how is it different for the kids? I know you may not know because they're not talking yet you know. - Well, I do work with an organization called Collage, which is Children Of Lesbians And Gays Everywhere. And that's the only organization that is specifically focused around the needs of children who are being raised in gay families. And there is so much support now, not all kids, particularly when they get to be a teenager, want to, necessarily go somewhere just because there's gonna be another kid who also has a gay parent or family, but the resources and the support that are available are so different and for the most part, what I hear from kids who do participate in collage is that it's great to have kids, other kids that they know of that have similar family structures and that have gay parents because the kids you could see, I mean we all know this, they don't think there's anything wrong with their parents, they don't even know there's anything different about their parents until they go into society and then are told this. So there's such an innocence and just knowledge about their family structure I hear kids eight years old and they tell their whole story of the mom going to the sperm bank and getting inseminated. (all laughing) They just talk about it as so matter of fact and it's very different and I think it's also different a child such as myself who is the product of a heterosexual marriage and then having a parent come out, whereas kids today who are getting older from gay families to gay people deciding to have a child together. I think that's very different. - Yeah I think it is different and why do you think, Simone, in the seventies we had such an ambivalence about this family stuff 'cause we certainly did. - Right, well I think part of it was questioning women's role. And so anything from the past, which was biological, which so it's a little bit absurd really, but we were new at our politics and our philosophy and we were trying on different things and we had some ideas that turned out to be great ideas and some ideas that we discarded. And so I think that, certain elements in the feminist community or the radical lesbian community looked upon women who'd been married and had children as having consorted with the enemy and here were the products of those enemy relationships. I mean that was an extremely radical view, but some of it kind of filtered around the women's community. - And it must have been painful for some of the mothers. I remember, there was an organization in Orange County, the first one I heard of that had quite a conference and women drove hours and hours and hours, who were mothers because they had no support, who were lesbian mothers, and there was this huge conference way more than they expected and a lot of angst about how there was no place to fit in their own biological families had said, we're not that you were lucky and didn't have such rejection, but they said we want nothing to do with you. - [Faye] Well what about if they move into another state though Sheila? It's entirely different. - Nothing there. - It's another world, then they're really (indistinct) well you best stay and where you are. You know I mean that. Because you read so much about it in the various magazines and newspapers, even when I was in Phoenix I noticed that in the newspapers. - [Simone] Right, you mean more prejudice in other places. - [Sheila] More prejudice yeah. - But I think also you know the fact that I was not a full-time mom because, as Emily said, she was at her dad's half the time, which was a little bit different than the women that were full-time moms, I think had a greater need for each other and to identify with that. - Well, and you also had the bookstore, which was amazing. I mean not just community for you, but community for all of us. Sisterhood Bookstore was one of the central meeting places for feminists to, well to find all of the literature that we wanted to find. But also the speakers and the programs and it was wonderful. - And to find each other, the resources, yeah. It was and Emily grew up in that. - [Sheila] I remember. - Yeah, she started working behind the counter when she was barely couldn't reach- - Couldn't see over the counter, I know. - [Faye] 27 Years was a long time. - Yeah a very long time. - [Faye] That bombing borders when they arrived. - I understand, right. (Emily and Simone laughing) No, it's fine to say. That they moved in right across the street could not have been an- - There were a lot of factors, - [Faye] Terrible. - That caused small bookstores to have a very hard time. And a lot of changes in community and in people's needs for community. - But it was a wonderful place for so many years. - [Simone] It was. The seventies and eighties. - I think of you as a feminist as well, would you? - [Faye] Oh yeah, I'm very involved. - Would you characterize yourself that way though? Early on, did you have, not that you would be unhappy in your marriage, I assume you were not. - No, at 52 Years I haven't. - 52 years seemed pretty good to me. - Wonderful mom, yes. - But would you characterize yourself as a feminist? - In England? They didn't know about feminist in England. The man went out to work, the woman stayed home and did the cooking and the, whatever the washing with the washing board and all the rest of the stuff. - And did you find it different when you came here in the fifties? - Oh different? - [Sheila] Yeah. - I loved it the minutes I arrived, oh it was terrific to have all this stuff. I remember when my brother was in the Navy in England, he came home in 1945 he said, "Going to America after the war, "all the Americans are rich." (all laughing) He was station with Eisenhower in the south of England, the tank landing crap. And he came in 48 and gradually we all came here with my mother, to an entirely different life. I used to write to my friends, "It's wonderful here, "the kids leave all the things on the lawn "and leave the doors open in those days." - [Sheila] In those days. - I'm going back to 53, remember. - Right, so when the feminist movement began and the bookstore opened. - Gradually it came. You know it did. - It took a long, long time. - Well I think it's this, you have certainly been- - Well in going into the store and you see all these women there, occasionally a man would come in, but mostly the women would come in, I knew it already, but I very rarely discussed it with Les 'cause I know at the time, at the beginning, he was upset by it all. He had still that English gentleman sort of thing, we didn't know about such things, remember it? - Well, I think even feminism was a threat to many. Now the other thing that I know about you and your family, it's an interesting thing for me to think about the difference in sort of the generations, not just yours as individuals, but sort of the worlds in which you came from, where you grew up and how much we are kind of children of our time. And I was thinking about your religious devotion as well, 'cause Faye I know, is a member of her temple, very active in her temple, - [Faye] Yeah very, very active. - You I know, were very active in the sort of the feminist spiritual movement. Certainly that was a big part of the bookstore as I remember, and Emily, I don't know how we'd characterize it, questioning at the very most about it and that may also be a generational thing, yet I experience all of you as being, spiritual in your own way. What do you think Em? You're the only one that sort of experienced them from your point of view. - Excuse me, my temple is entirely different. It's a reformed temple, our rabbi, both lesbians they got married in the temple. So you see- - [Emily] What? - There we are. (Emily, Sheila and Simone laughing) What you laughing at? - [Simone] I don't understand, I miss the point of what you just said. - You remember the, our assistant rabbi, that went moved up north and they adopted the baby, she had a baby. - I actually didn't remember that, okay. - Well that is a whole new temple. (all laughing) - [Faye] Yeah. - Well that's been a very big change- - [Faye] Hail bet, the religion is at the Getty museum. - Yes right. - The Rabbi beerman, you must have heard him there, - [Sheila] Sure of course. - He's been arrested about 25 times. - [Sheila] For only good things of course. - Of course. He went- - But it was different for you Simone. I don't know, maybe this is too personal but I'm also interested in it because so many families go through those changes as well. That's not about sexual orientation, but it is also an aspect of our times and I'm not quite sure because I'm, a more Simone's generation, how to kind of characterize sort of the spirituality of your generation Em. - I've always felt very disconnected from my Judaism. I identify as a Jewish person and some of the cultural Jewish aspects I feel possibly connected to but religion and the institutions of the temples and even the traditions of the different holidays, I feel very disconnected to and I think that I go through the motions mostly to please my grandmother. - [Faye] Thank you. - You're welcome. But unfortunately, there's not a lot of meaning on a personal level. - Do you find that in a number of your friends or? - Yes, most yes and I think that's because I seek out like-minded people. So I don't think that's would be a majority of my generation, maybe it is, but I certainly haven't had a hard time finding people that I relate to on a lack of a religious level. - Right, well in a way it's very much the same thing, we believe what we believe and we think, I know you think that it would be also good for you know the other generations of your family to experience the joy that you do and yet that's not how it turned out. - [Emily] And I know that it's very painful for her. - It is. - Well, but it's the same thing as the sexual orientation discussion if you know what I mean. It is, I know that this is a good thing, because I learned this, but I also experienced, you experienced your marriage as a very good thing. - I feel it would be such a tremendous help for her. I really do, if she got involved, because it isn't- - What do I need help with? - Now, we don't need to do all of this discussion. - It's going the wrong way I can tell. - Well, but my point really being, it's very similar, sexual orientation is not the only difference that we all have in our families, in terms of what, you know my mother and father really thought was a good thing for me. Now, my mom and dad, my dad was Catholic and my mother was Jewish. So we never discussed religion in my family, at least in terms of what was better or what was worse or whatever but they were both people of faith and it was, my mother was more of a naturalist about her faith. She did not go to temple, women were not necessarily always going. But she had more of a sort of a household spirituality. And I don't know, Simone, how would you characterize kind of, was it about at the same time that feminism was happening that you explored or? - No, I think that from a very early age, I was not interested in really traditional Judaism. And, we did belong to a temple when I was growing up, and somewhere in the 50s and 60s, I sort of started becoming a very anti-establishment kind of person, which included religion. - [Emily] And so was my father. He was even more extreme. - [Faye] And still is. - However, when we met, we did decide that to please our families, we would have a Jewish wedding and we did. And so there's always been a link for me to Judaism. And then at the same time that the women's community was going through all of the various consciousness raising, as we talked about earlier, one of them was about our backgrounds, our heritage and our religions and I was in a Jewish women's support group and got involved with the gay temple, got interested in feminist synagogue, and, I was pretty active for a long time and now, I feel like I'm not any longer. - And was there any connection? About, because a number of people have said, well my religion rejected me and therefore I kind of rejected them. - Yeah, I don't feel that my religion rejected me and I feel very connected to my religion. I'm a big reader and I read Jewish themed books, I see Jewish themed films, I'm very, very interested in history, especially, I study world war II a lot, I'm very connected to issues about the Holocaust and survivors, 'cause my family, we were in England at that time. - [Faye] She went to the temple with me. - It was a scary- - She goes to temple with you, I know I've seen her. - She shot on young (indistinct) (all laughing) - But in terms of my personal inner life, I don't feel particularly interested in an organized Judaism, but I'm very glad that there is, I am very connected to Judaism, just not to Synagogue Judaism. - Well, it's just interesting to me because we have a, it's sort of like another, not a necessary progression because every family hasn't gone that way, there would be atheists and the grandparents generation and a resurgence of orthodoxy. - [Faye] Yeah I'm working on her but- - You're working on her? She's very young, we change as we get older. - You can always hope. - [Emily] And this way I'm my father's daughter. - Yeah I understand. Well, let me ask you Faye, - Yes Volo. - What advice would you give to parents and grandparents in terms of their kids, if they think their kids are gay or their grandchildren, or they come out to them, what advice would you give them? - I can't understand them suddenly not loving a person. I mean she's child, grandchild whatever. How can you stop loving somebody? That's ridiculous. They're just bigots. No really, it's something I can't understand and I haven't come across that fortunately. - In your friends, do you have others in your generation with gay kids or gay? - We talk about things like that, but I can't understand if you love somebody, how can you suddenly dislike them? - Well you might be terrifically disappointed I know that's what some have said. I'm so disappointed I can't talk to you- - But by that a part of your life's gone. Then, I mean I can't imagine not talking Simone. Okay, I mean we have arguments and all can like everybody else does, but we get friends again. (all laughing) But, I can't understand that, I really cannot understand that, sincerely, I don't understand that. - Well, what though, if they felt that way? What would you say to them? - If I have ever came across anybody like that, I would just talk and talk and talk and make them see some sense. (Sheila laughing) 'Cause it's stupid. Life is too short to do- - And Simone you're in the middle of the sandwich as it were. - [Simone] Yes. - Because you had the experience both of coming out and being come out to, I don't know what that is. (all laughing) - [Faye] Me driving her crazy. - Yeah, that syntax is not too good, but you know what I mean. - [Simone] That's fine. - What advice would you give to, well, people who need to come out to their parents. 'Cause you know everybody's afraid of it. - [Faye] All of them at the beginning. (all laughing) - [Sheila] I'm asking Simone. - [Faye] Yeah. - I think that the, you know the more places that you can be yourself, no matter how you imagine it's gonna be painful or it's going to hurt, ultimately, there's so much value in it. It's a risk and often the things that are the riskiest end up being the most meaningful. When you take the risk and come out on the other side, come out on the other side. - It is kind of on the other side I remember there was a, I think it was in the old days, a Shell gasoline commercial, where there was a car hurdling towards a brick wall and then it drove right through and it turned out that the brick wall was really just made of paper. - [Emily] Very nice image. - It felt that way to me, when I came out to my parents finally, as though they had been standing outside my closet kind of waiting for me to trust them enough, and actually it hurt them more that I didn't trust them to tell them, than it hurt them when I told them. Which was completely the opposite of what I thought it was gonna be. - I think the most difficult though, Sheila is, is for the Orthodox, the right wing class I call them that, really, they would never accept it. Things like Kaba and all that group, they just, and it's unbelievable, but it's true. - Well, it makes it very difficult for the families. - They won't even shake your hand, a man won't shake your hand in that thing, a woman, no way. You're separated and all. It's I don't think it'll ever change either. - Well you don't know what's gonna ever change, we've all gone through a number of changes. - [Faye] I can't imagine. - [Simone] It's hard to imagine but yeah. - There's the stubbornness there. I saw, when I was in Edmonton with the group, just like that. - Well it makes it very difficult for the families too. - [Faye] Of course. - So what advice would you have then as a parent, to the other parents? Cause there's gonna be a lot of kids coming out to their parents, I just know that's gonna happen. (Simone laughs) - Advice to, I'm sorry the parents? - [Sheila] Yeah. - You have only everything to gain. There's absolutely nothing, not to gain by having closeness, openness, knowing your children. Emily and I are very, very close and it's just a great source of pleasure. And you know, who would not want that in their life? - Well what do you think leads them to say, I never wanna see you again, get out of the house. - I think there's just tremendous fear. People have such tremendous fear about having to change values that they've always had and if they suddenly change one little value, what else will have to change? A questioning of their entire being and some people just really don't wanna have that happen. They just need things to just remain as they have always had it. - Yeah, I guess that's true. - Take the leap. - But at a huge cost, I mean a huge cost. How about you, Emily? What advice would you give? So far you haven't been a parent, but you have certainly been a kid and a grandkid. What advice would you give? - I've just been incredibly fortunate that I've had an opportunity to be myself and always felt that whatever that is was completely accepted. But I think I always would encourage people to be themselves and to express themselves and to articulate their feelings and their thoughts and just to always engage in dialogue about everything, including their personal life and from a very young age, I think. I think it's, I mean we have a great relationship and I see how unique that is with my friends and they're close to their parents but I feel like we have a very unique closeness and I think a lot of that is because of, the emphasis on communicating and having dialogue about the world and who we are. - Well, I wanna thank all three of you. I don't know whether you knew what you were getting into, I know you're all friends of mine and I really appreciate that you would be willing to do this because I just like people to see who our families really are, and the fact that it's not incredibly impossible, but it's also not easy either, that people go through their changes but that really love is kind of the triumphant virtue. And you certainly you certainly embody that. So thank you Emily, thank you Simone, and thank you Faye. - [Faye] You're very welcome. - And thank you for being with us too, we hope that you will take from this that sort of like old saw about how love conquers all which it does, and be sure that you don't deny yourself any of that if you can get it, and I hope that you'll get used to it. (upbeat music)