Get Used to It: Ep. 87, "Voices of Our Lives: David Bender"

- Hi, coming up next on "Get Used to It", we've got a great guest, David Bender. Watch this. - You know, as long as I've known David Bender, he has been involved in public issues in one way or another. And I think really, what he's been able to do, rather uniquely, is kind of meld a lot of different worlds and channel them into focusing on public issues, whether it be Washington, or New York, or Los Angeles, the entertainment community, and kind of getting a group of like-minded people and focusing them in one direction. And I can't really think of anyone who has done it really, longer or as well as he. And really, he was sort of seized onto the importance of linking a lot of these different worlds way early on. - David Bender has been my dear friend for many, many, many years, and he's one of the brightest human beings I know. He's an accomplished writer, and has been my political mentor for many years. He has worked in politics on a number of different levels. (typewriter clacking) (typewriter clacking) (typewriter clacking) (heavy typewriter clacking) (punchy instrumental music) - Hi, I'm Sheila Kuehl. Welcome to "Get Used to It," a show in which we explore issues that are of interest to the gay and lesbian community, and everybody else in the entire universe. So, I'm glad you're joining us today, because we have a great guest. David Bender, author, activist, political guru, entertainment and media guru. See, you didn't know I was gonna use the word guru. - If I were a guru, I would've sat cross legged on your set. But -- - Well we would've given you a larger set too, and we could have both sat cross legged. - Is there an ash ram or a -- - Not yet. But David Bender actually has an incredibly interesting history, and rather than get completely lost in kind of starting at the end, I'm gonna start at the beginning, or at least at your beginning, David. Welcome to the show. - Thank you, it's nice to be here. - Really glad that you're here. So, tell us a little bit about your childhood, your parents, give us a context for you as a person. - I grew up in Southern California. Was born near the airport, which probably foreshadowed the fact that I'd be leaving a lot. (Sheila laughing) I didn't realize it at the time. I'm an only child. My parents were a bit older than most parents, when I was born, my father was in his 50s, my mother, late 30s. And I think one of the things that happened early on was I had to do a lot by myself. I did a lot of reading, a lot of watching of television, used to love this show called Dobie Gillis (Sheila laughing) that was on a lot. Actually I had a crush on this girl that was on the show. - I've heard of that show, and I know that girl well. - Well, the thing is I had this crush, I cut out her TV guide interview. (Sheila laughing) And I pasted it up on my wall when I was, and I won't tell you what age I was, but you know? - Now, do you remember that the title of that interview, however, and the thing that appeared on the cover of the TV guide was, "She's No Marilyn Monroe." - No. That didn't throw me off. - Yeah well it hurt me for a little while, I can tell you. - I didn't say it wasn't Tuesday Weld by the way, (Sheila laughing) so let's be clear. But no, it happened to have been used, so there's all foreshadowing here. When I was about 11, I started writing, and I had always liked to, I read a lot, but I always liked to write stories, I wrote a lot in school. And I started a children's book, figuring somehow that perhaps a child is the right person to write a children's book. - [Sheila] What a thought. - There was a little logic. Perhaps not having experienced what it's like to deal with publishers, I naively thought they would get that. - [Sheila] Sure. - And I wrote about 75 pages, and in fact a publisher very much liked it and wanted me to continue. It was a book called "Mouse Magic," with a mouse named Ebeneezer, and we won't, he has another show coming up. (Sheila laughing) Stay tuned next week. The time I was midway through this project, we were also, there was a clerical error in the school district where I was supposed to be attending. One school district thought I had transferred to another school, and I wound up getting lost in the clerical error. - [Sheila] Hmm. - Each school thought I was at the other. This was in seventh grade. - [Sheila] Ah. - And so instead of the transfer back to the school, that in fact I didn't want to attend, I was gonna be moving and wanted to go to the original school, I stayed home and wrote. This was now the beginning of 1968, and 1968, which amazingly enough, I was very insulated from the '60s. At that age, just at 12 years old, I was aware of the Civil Rights Movement, but in a very sort of abstract way. And around March of 1968, Robert Kennedy got into the presidential race. Now my family wasn't political. I had a great uncle, great, great uncle who I never knew, who had been mayor of Patterson, New Jersey. - And that's as close as it had come so far. - That's as close as it had come so far. But I felt drawn to Robert Kennedy. I remember getting up early, watching him on television as he announced, he had his family around him. I recorded the announcement with my little handheld recorder, also foreshadowing, and decided somehow that perhaps working on that campaign was more important to me than continuing my writing at that point. So, I put the book in a drawer. I happily still have the drawer, I don't know if the book's in it. But I volunteered. And because I was in a situation where school didn't know that I was leaving, I stayed out. - And your parents happily drove you every day to this? - My parents happily drove me every day because they knew it was something I needed to do. And I don't know why. - But why? Oh, well, see, I was just gonna call you out. (laughs) I was just gonna ask you why. I mean, it is an unusual thing when you think of it, although any of us who had heard Bobby, or worked for him, who were quite a bit older than you were at the time, I mean really can understand the draw to it, but often not to someone so young. So, what does a 12 year old do in a Kennedy campaign? - Well, I remember getting a corn beef sandwich for Teddy. (Sheila laughing) I was very proud, because I got the order right. I stuffed envelopes. At that point one of the things I, it's a funny memory because they don't do it anymore, but I went bird dogging, which was when you were registering voters, adults couldn't, the registrars couldn't go door to door and ask you to register, but they could stand out on the street at a legal distance and kids could go up and say, "There's a registrar over there." And we went bird dogging, and this is in 1968 in Watts, which was and remains an all African American community. And I had no fear, I was knocking on doors and was perfectly safe. It was one of those things where, and I remember the experience of learning about issues like civil rights, like the war in Vietnam, as I learned about Robert Kennedy's positions on those issues. And that's, to me, it was a kind of schooling that if I lived a hundred years, I couldn't replicate. - Well, and I met you only a few years later, as I recall, because you were just starting college, but you were already interested in student government. - I became interested in student government after arriving at UCLA, where you were a dean. And in fact, we have a very dear friend, Rick Tuttle, who was the head of students for Kennedy on that '68 campaign, he was your fellow dean, and that's how we met, because you had offices next to each other. And so one of the extraordinary moments was arriving at UCLA and realizing that this person who I had known, Rick, was there and helped to bring me into student government, and make me aware of how my activism could take a different turn. - But all through this time and I assume maybe in high school, you had discovered, that's not the right word that we used these days, I don't even know what it is, but you've come to the realization that you were gay. - Well, you know, when I look back on it, and it's a funny process, because we've talked about this, looking back and seeing it as that moment where the light bulb comes on, "Oh, I'm gay." There was never that moment. And what I do remember are some crucial moments that occurred in how I came to deal with it. Because it was a more evolving process of understanding I had feelings, not quite sure what to make of them. And one of the things that I think is a wonderful outgrowth of the success of our movement in this era is that people don't remember how hard it was in that era. They have no clue, many people, younger people today cannot envision a time when it was a torturous thing to say to your dean of students, "I think I'm gay." Which when I said to you, and you were the first person I ever told, it was as if the world was going to end at that moment. And to paraphrase someone, "I was afraid it wouldn't." - [Sheila] Yeah. - It didn't end, and you were a large part of helping me through that time. But I say that because I look at that, not as a, it wasn't a political action, it's become perhaps more so later on as people look at the context of coming out, and the importance for people, certainly in the public eye when they do it. And I've been a part of that, and proud of it. But at that point, it was a very personal thing. - Well, and the interesting thing for me of course, was I wasn't out myself. - [David] Right. And I had no clue. (chuckles) - No, and well, I mean, you probably did, but I really didn't. - [David] Maybe. - And it was a little bit scary to me that you would come out to me, because I wanted to deeply affirm whatever my students were telling me. It was a time when things were really beginning to change, there was more awareness of people being gay, but it was also very scary for me because I wasn't really out. And yet, I was very moved by your courage in talking to me. You know, this is the interesting thing, I think, about it. And I think you've really found this with a number of people in your life, especially as you went further and further in the political arena. Not just about gayness, but the fact that one's courage will then lead another person to have courage, and then they'll come back and, you know, it's a red on the waters kind of thing. - It's the ripples, right. - But you then, going through UCLA, and being pretty political in the democratic party sense, you then went way beyond college politics. And I don't know what the next move was for you, because I kind of lost track of you. - Well, right there was that period, and in fact I did a lot of traveling in, we're talking now from the mid '70s through through the early '80s, I was very fortunate our friend, Rick Tuttle, introduced me to a man named Allard Lowenstein. And Al Lowenstein became a mentor to me, as you were, as Rick was. But in an extraordinary way, here's a man who history will ultimately remember, but many people don't know now, as having been the central figure in the Civil Rights Movement. He was the one who organized the Mississippi Freedom Summers, going to register voters, bringing students down from the northern campuses. He was the one who organized the Dump Johnson movement in 1967, who got Eugene McCarthy into that race. I knew little about him when Rick asked if I would consider driving him around, which is how it started. In fact, he had come to California to work on the Robert Kennedy assassination case. And that was the connection that Tuttle made as to why, perhaps, as an 18 year old, I might want to work with Al. And I worked with him for six years, from my freshman year at UCLA to 1980, when we were working together for Edward Kennedy on that presidential campaign, I joined that campaign as a student organizer, and then became part of the national field staff, working closely with the Kennedy family, scheduling, moving many Kennedys around the country, and moving Al around the country. And that continued until March of 1980, when he was shot. And that was perhaps, as Robert Kennedy's assassination was for me, those two events are perhaps the touchstones of my life, politically. - You know, I think people know about Robert Kennedy's being shot, we've all seen it again, and again, we've seen much about it. Let's say more about Al Lowenstein, because I'll bet you there are a lot of viewers around the country for this show for whom, as you said, it's not a familiar name, they don't know the circumstances of his death, and I think as an aspect of remembering, it's good for us to say more. - Well he was, I think universally, considered to be one of the brightest, most charismatic public people. He was the quintessential activist, he motivated young people all over the country to causes, and he brought passion to everything he did. Sadly, one of the people who had come to the Mississippi Summers to work on the Civil Rights Movement was the person who ultimately shot him, a man named Dennis Sweeney, who had gone into a delusional state, schizophrenic, and was hearing voices in his head, and felt Al was trying to control him, and, you know, the classic schizophrenia. And it was, you know, the hardest part of this of course was that when you lose people in that way, and I was present the night Robert Kennedy was killed with the ambassador. And I had also had, I was on the phone with Al 10 minutes before Dennis came to his office. There's a sense of, I can imagine what it must be like for survivors of a plane crash. You know, it takes a while to have any kind of distance or understanding of that experience. And the loss is so enormous, and not just for me, but for all of the people who were touched by it. But for me, these are real people. Al Lowenstein was not a public figure alone to me, and I saw his public work, but he was a human being who I loved deeply. And that, as was true for Robert Kennedy, and you asked why at the outset, and I think the why comes in the afterward, I don't know why I got into Robert Kennedy's campaign, I'm not sure why I continued, but I understand now, looking back, that I didn't have a choice, that when you're touched by this kind of commitment, and passion, and belief, if you don't carry it forward, you've completely lost the experience that was so essential to knowing these people. And for me, that's what my life's been about, is carrying that forward and sharing it. Because that's how they remain alive, that's how you don't lose that. - Well, and in addition, you broadened the scope of it though in a way that I think a lot of people haven't. There's a lot of talk about the similarities and connections between politics and show business. And I've certainly seen that actors are just gaga over politicians, and vice versa. - Some of them become politicians. (David and Sheila chuckling) - Some, a little bit. - A few, a few. - They become little politicians, except for one president of the Screen Actor's Guild. - Who shall remain nameless. - Well, you know, he did get to be president of the United States, and I think everybody knows it. But they're really not the same. I mean, in a way actors want to be of service and of use. And they are, to the extent that they can be, they do, they show up for stuff. Politicians, I hope I'm not sounding prejudiced, are of service and of use in their work for the most part, but they really don't know how to handle the celebrity part of it, or be gracious celebrities in many ways. And the interesting arc of your career is that you have touched all of these kinds of people, sort of, not ad seriatim, but you know, one at a time, in ways that I think has brought it together. But I'm not sure. Tell a little about the media and show business connections. - Well part of what part of what happened, sort of organically, is that a lot of, and this happened when I was working with Al, I met a lot of artists, Mike Farrell was one, a wonderful man who is obviously deeply committed to his own beliefs and acts on them. - [Sheila] Speaking of officers of the Screen Actors Guild. - Speaking of officers. But so many other people who I met through Al who were from the arts, who got into the Civil Rights Movement, the anti-war movement, and I became fascinated. Growing up in Los Angeles, I was exposed to, my family wasn't in the industry, but I was exposed to it. I had friends whose families were, I was around it enough, and it's a company town. I saw the symbiosis, and you know, it's what you're describing, that each is fascinated with the other. It's the old story that Warren Beatty wanted to be Gary Hart, and Gary Hart wanted to be Warren Beatty, (Sheila laughing) and each suffered for it. But the truth is that the connection, when it's made, when there's an opportunity to bring those two worlds together, is very powerful. We've seen it, you know, when Rosie O'Donnell came out, and we saw the power that celebrity has to affect something that affects the way we think, the way we feel. Now, should actors be in politics, should politicians act? I mean, you know, it is a blurry line, and there are certainly questions that can be raised about where that line gets crossed. Where I've played a part, and where I'm very proud of it, is to try and channel the genuine passions and beliefs of people, working with artists who care about the environment, Ted Danson on his American Oceans campaign, many artists on gay rights issues, and bring them into, you know, the public arena in a way that can do some good. Not just show up, but do some good with it. And they feel great. You know, it is a great opportunity, but it carries with it some responsibility. And when you live up to that, you know, you have something to tell your kids about. - Well, one of the ways I remember you brought politicians into more comfort with our movement was when the Human Rights Campaign Fund, as it was called then, was just starting up. And I'm not sure whether that was before or after you were working with Rosanna Tom Arnold. - It was way before. The Human Rights Campaign Fund, as it was called, well, it goes back just a step. In 1980, when I was working for Ted Kennedy, I met a man named Jim Foster. Jim, who people, again, don't remember, was very crucial to our movement. From San Francisco, a political activist, but someone who had connected gay activism with democratic party activism. He was the first openly gay or lesbian speaker at a political convention in 1972 in Miami. They put him on at 3:00 in the morning, but he was, (Sheila laughing) he was the first person ever to address a convention as an openly gay speaker. And each of these little, you know, sort of upticks on the path of progress seemed so enormous and significant at the time, and it was. So from '72 to '80, we went from one speaker at a convention, to an actual gay caucus. When I was a Kennedy delegate in 1980 and I came to know Jim, we worked on the campaign together, and after 1980, I moved to New York, and there had been no organized national political action campaign for the gay and lesbian community. In Los Angeles, there was something called MECLA, which had existed from the mid-seventies, right? - The Municipal Elections Committee of Los Angeles. - Committee of Los Angeles. And I remember not having attended it, but I remember reading about their first fundraising event, a dinner somewhere in Los Angeles, that then Mayor Tom Bradley attended. Someone pointed out, it was probably held in a phone booth (Sheila laughing) with some room left over. But Bradley was the only politician, it was the very first baby step of political action for our community, but nothing like this had happened in New York. So here I am in my mid twenties, I've moved to New York, I'm working for the state senator, who I'd met through the Kennedy campaign, and Jim Foster comes to New York and says, "We need to organize, the Human Rights Campaign Fund nationally will become the national version of MECLA." A meeting is held, committees are formed. And the first idea that these, there are lawyers and bankers, and I'm stunned, some of these people, you know, who I would be absolutely certain are Republicans. (Sheila laughing) You know, it's one thing to associate with other gay people, but Republicans? (Sheila laughing) And some of them were. And imagine my surprise. But their idea of how to organize for our first big political event was to hold a gay cruise (Sheila laughing) outside the three mile limit. - Oh, on a boat. - On a boat. Yes, sorry, I should have mentioned that. (Sheila laughing) It wasn't at the bast. - It was the gay cruising boat. - It could have been, exactly, it was the right year for cruising actually. But it was to have been a boat that would take 800 people out on the water for an evening, and I remember thinking, "This is insane, no politician will ever do this. They can't, it's politically untenable, and it will be a spectacular failure if they try and do it." So here I am, this young kid, they're ignoring me for quite a while, and finally, I just kept pushing. They'd rented the boat, they were going to do it, and I said, "You cannot do this. I will help you organize a dinner, let me tell you about MECLA, let me tell you how this works." We shifted it, it went to the Walder four-story, which had never had a gay and lesbian event. - That they knew of. (laughs) - That they knew of, but certainly not openly, and that was a big deal, because it was the prestigious hotel to have something. We got Walter Mondale to keynote the dinner, and at that point he became, in 1982, the highest ranking elected official, or former elected official about to run for president in his own right to ever participate in any kind of gay political event. It made Time Magazine, it made Nightline, it was a huge success. And I'm very proud of that, because that was that moment of where I could bring together the sort of the background and the training that I had. The other part of it was that we had some extraordinary entertainment, Patty LaBelle, Harvey Fierstein. The dinner is now in its 20th year, they just went back to the Walder, they hadn't done it every year there, but to celebrate it, it went back to the Walder for its 20th anniversary. I think that combining those elements, bringing together, and we had a number of other artists participating, Lilly Tomlin participated early on, and honored her friend Vito Rousseau. I mean, we did things that brought people into a context where they saw that it was possible to expand our political power, and that was very satisfying. - Well, and it's been, you know, people know very little about work such as you've done really all your life. I mean, I was thinking about it because the people that we see on television, except when we watch West Wing, for instance, really are people who are celebrities they sort of choose to be, they come and go. And yet now, my experience in political office has introduced me to a number of men and women whose job is like what you've been doing for us, really through an extraordinary amalgam of talents. A lot of it is communications, bringing people together. A lot of it is, I don't know what the right word is, but if an actor is passionate about a subject, but will not be taken seriously about it, and wants to participate. - [David] Right. - Then, you know, I call David Bender. And there's a way to do that so that the actor has added to the cache of a project, or of a subject matter, or a politician who would like to do the right thing, but you know, how does he know how to show up at a gay dinner? - [David] Right. - And this kind of making it work I think has been the hallmark of your work. - It's a little bit, we were trying to think of a word, and it's a little bit of alchemy. - [Sheila] Yeah. - You know, you do have to try and transform people's sense of what is possible, even within themselves. And that's something I learned from Al Lowenstein. I said at his memorial that the greatest gift that Al gave anyone was that he could look at them and see what they were capable of when they couldn't see it themselves. And if I've been able to do anything, it's been to look at a situation where people say, "This can't, this doesn't work, it can't be done like the dinner in New York," or whatever it might be, and say, "Well, wait a minute. No, you're not looking at this. Think about this, you've got the ability." And it's not just to cheer lead, it's really to motivate, and inspire, and to draw things out of people. Sometimes, a little bit of it is on faith, but I've rarely been disappointed. People are amazing when you let them live up to their potential. - Well, now before we talk about George Magazine, and your book on OJ, and, you know, things that are very interesting, in my opinion, talk a little bit about some of the artists and entertainers that you work with, and what you felt, you know, what did they want from you, and what did you do for them? - Well, you know, it's been such a wide array. When I was in New York, I formed my own consulting firm, which did both political and entertainment consulting. And after working with the Human Rights Campaign Fund, and it's still, (Sheila laughing) that Fund's always gonna be a part of it for me, you know, they can drop the F, but that doesn't mean I can drop the F. And you know, one of the things I had to do was to start, I went to work for HRCF after the dinners, and having brought some artists into it, I was asked to help promote it in a way that would give it some visibility. I remember I produced some public service announcements, and brought some artists, including Mike Farrell and others, to tape spots that were the first of their kind, to go out and try and articulate the need for people to sign up. Remember, as you do, but perhaps a lot of people listening don't, there was not a context for gay political activism. It was thought that politicians would turn back the money, and a lot of them did. So at that time, just the threshold that had to be crossed of, "Why do this?" That's where I met and worked with a lot of artists. Then moving into sort of the mid '80s, I thought a lot about what I had been doing, and realized I had been working on the political side of it, I could also work on the entertainment side of it. And I made that leap. I think it was about 1986, I became a publicist for a film. Just promoting a film, no cause, no activism, a film called Dominic and Eugene. Tom Hulce, Ray Liotta, and it was a wonderful experience. I did another movie right after that, and then discovered that the talents that I had brought to bear in politics and government were very similar to what you needed to do in working within the industry. And they just kept crossing over, a lot of the causes. I met Steven Stills, Crosby, Stills, and Nash working on the anti-nuclear movement. I brought Robert Kennedy Jr., who had become a friend through the campaign, out to speak in an event in Los Angeles. Steven was performing. Steven and I became friends, then that led to some of the great artists driven events for the anti-nuclear movement, and I was a part of that, and helping to bring artists together, and working with that. Again, you know, there's no daily checklist. As the causes presented themselves, you would find who wanted to be involved, how we could make a contribution. I remember doing one wonderful event where, I guess this would've been in the late '80s, I found I had the cast of L.A. Law in my car. (Sheila laughing) You know, I'm looking rear view mirror, and there's Jimmy Schmitz. And you know, I nearly had an accident, (Sheila laughing) but you know, a lot of fun things can happen. This was on the issue of homelessness, there was a ballot initiative in California, and they were all supporting it. Susan Day was an activist on that. You know, these kinds of things. When the worlds come together, it can be very funny, because again, in the mid '80s, the first openly gay member of Congress was a man by the name of Gerry Studds from Massachusetts. This is even before Barney Frank. Gerry became a good friend, and someone on whose campaign I did a lot, and helped raise money around the country, and visibility. And I brought him to California. And Gerry is a patrician New Englander, very, very un-Hollywood. And he was in a very tough race, and he needed to meet some people who might be supportive of him, but he didn't know who they were. I remember coming to one event that Whoopi Goldberg was performing at, and we were sitting in the audience, and he leaned into me and whispered, "She's not Jewish, is she?" (Sheila laughing) I knew that we had a little educating to do. We went to an event with a number of artists, and I remember after he'd been talking very, very eloquently about, you know, issues, environment, gay rights, he's a marvelous man. He took me into the bedroom of the house where this event was held and said, "That very attractive blonde man who was speaking to me, who is that?" I said, "That was Jon Voight. Coming Home? Oscar? Anything at all?" No, no blank looks. So, the worlds don't always intersect, but if I've had any kind of, and I'm not sure if there'll be anything on my tombstone that says "Here lies David Bender, he knew who they were." (Sheila laughing) But I did. I had a moment, this came up the other day, where I remembered at the 1992 Democratic Convention, I found myself, and again, one of the things that inexorably happens is that you were looked to by artists as the person who can help talk to them about who these public figures are and where they stand. And we took a delegation to the convention of young artist activists. And I remember walking Ethan Hawk around the floor of the Democratic Convention, and he must have been about 20, and dressed down. (chuckles) And we got to Daniel Patrick Moynihan, the New York delegation. And neither of them had a clue, (Sheila laughing) but I pretended that they did. "Senator Moynihan, you know Ethan Hawk." - You of course know Ethan Hawk, and of course -- - "You know, Senator Moynihan." And of course for that moment, they were best of friends. - [Sheila] They did, right. (laughs) - And you know, that process just is not a bad one. - Well, you certainly worked a long time with Steven Stills, and obviously with David Crosby, not obviously, but -- - [David] That led to working with David. - And we know how they were associated. - [David] Right. - But what kind of work did you lead them into, or did they ask you to help them into? - Well, you know, again, they are very committed, Steven has been a long time Democratic Party activist, which is one of the ways we became friendly, as well as his anti-nuclear work, and I worked with him for a number of years. I met David in that process, and what grew out of that was a friendship with David that led to us deciding to write a book documenting this, and that book became both a book and a documentary called "Stand and Be Counted." And it's a five year project that took us interviewing some 40 artists, everyone from Pete Seeger, to Joan Baez, to Sting, Elton John, some extraordinary moments. And for me, as a gay man, to sit and talk to, you know, Elton John about his activism, or Melissa Etheridge about coming out at a Human Rights Campaign Fund event of all things. I mean, these are very powerful moments for me, and we documented it. It's something I'm extremely proud of as a book, and a record of what that activism is. So, that's that connection. - But then the next time I think I saw you, you were the west coast editor of George Magazine. - Yeah, where does he pop up next, you know? - Now we know, you know, John, John John, was certainly at least the front man for that magazine, and it was his magazine. - He was more than a front man, he really was, he had a very strong vision for it, and he worked on it day and night, sleeves rolled up. He really was an integral part of it, and nothing, it's easy, and I'm not saying you're doing it, but it's easy to imagine that he didn't have the role that he did. But he played a huge part in bringing all of us together to celebrate politics, to celebrate what he thought of, and what I know of in knowing many politicians who embody this as an honorable profession. And as we know, by the time the magazine came into being in the mid '90s, politics was in disrepute. This idea that public service, I remember this in my lifetime, watching the numbers, Gallup takes the poll every year, "Would you want your son or daughter to become president?" And when I was growing up, that was at the top of the list, it was 75, 80% thought that, they wished it. Now it's like a curse. Would you want your child to become president? Unless you're George Barbara Bush, the answer is no. And with good reason. And what John wanted to do with the magazine, and what we wanted to really help people to remember, is that politics is an extension of ourselves. Government is not something other than who we are, and if we're at our best, so is our government. And John understood that, and he lived his life that way. It was a great privilege, and something, I am very fortunate to have been a part of. We did a lot of fun things. I remember one of the, actually I helped him with, one of the first George interviews that we did of an entertainment person was John's interview with Warren Beatty. And he somehow, again, forgot to mention Dobie Gillis. (Sheila laughing) I don't know how that keeps happening. - Not one of his proudest moments, though it is one of mine. - Yes, as it should be. - Yes. Well, say more about, I think, the work on George Magazine, and what you thought it was about. Because I understand what you just said, about generating a real sense of pride in the enterprise, partly, I think, by helping people to understand what the people are like who are in it. But it was really so different from any other publication that I've ever seen, and that was certainly out at the time. What was your involvement with it, and sort of what did you task yourself to do in this enterprise? - Well, my role really was an amorphous one. I was Contributing Editor, but based on the west coast, I had a strong feel for entertainment related stories. So, it would be suggesting story ideas that connected entertainment and activism to politics, an extension of my work. And you know, sort of what John and I had talked about over a number of years, and we'd known each other long before the magazine is, is the interconnection and the interplay, a lot of what we've spoken about here. There were a number of story ideas I suggested, a number of pieces I wrote. But, you know, primarily it was, again with the thrust of not doing what so many do, which is to see where you can dig up dirt, where you can find fault, where the feet of clay of this person, that was never what George was about, it was about going to the higher ground, and saying, "You know, people make mistakes, but here's what they're attempting to do, here's what they're trying to say," and celebrating that and extolling that. And I think, you know, to the degree that we were able to fill a void, it was a very important thing. I'm sad that John didn't live long enough to see where we are today, which is people actually believing, perhaps for odd purposes, but believing that their government is an important part of their lives and can do good things, and trusting in government again. I mean, that's what John was about. Republican or Democrat, he was about that belief. And that's what I think we shared. - That loss must have been hard for you. - Yeah. - You knew him a long time. - Yeah. For, I don't know, 15 years. It was very hard. And again, you come to a place of understanding, that you don't really ever say goodbye because that's not the way it works. I lost my mother a few years ago, and that's without question the hardest loss I've ever had in my life. But if you try and make it make sense, it won't, so the only thing you can do is what we were saying about both Bobby Kennedy and Al Lowenstein, is you try and understand what they were about, and continue it. I mean, I try to keep my mom alive every day in doing the things that she was proud of me for doing. You know, I try and do the things that I knew John loved, and I continue to believe that it is important to celebrate those things. I mean, that's just, that's how I keep going. - Well, I can see the through line in all the stuff we've talked about, but where I never quite saw the through line was in your book. - Oh, O. J.? - Yes. I mean, suddenly -- - Yeah, that was a left turn, wasn't it? - Well, kind of. I mean, I honor everything you've done, I certainly read the book from cover to cover. - [David] Yeah. - And could you explain that? - Well, let's at least tell people that this was a book that does not extol O. J., it's called "The Confession of O. J. Simpson: A Work of Fiction." And while I was in the middle of working with David Crosby on "Stand and Be Counted," and you know, and we'd done many artist interviews, we had many more to do, the O. J. verdict came in, and then the more to the point, the civil case occurred, and he had been found innocent, but then the civil jury held him accountable. Fred Goldman made the challenge to Simpson, said, "You know, we don't want this $33 million, we just want the truth. And if you'll take out a full page ad, say you did it, we'll waive the judgment." And I remember, I remember the moment I was driving in my car thinking, "Well, I'm not a lawyer, but," and you're a lawyer, you tell me, double jeopardy. He could, having been acquitted of the criminal charges, come forward and confess, and get out of the $33 million penalty. And I thought, "How fascinating." This is something that, you know, at least playing out this thread, what would motivate him to finally tell the truth, which in my view, and the view of many others, he did not. So, I started writing it down. I couldn't, it actually started just appearing on the page before me, (Sheila laughing) And there was this other book that was being crowded away. And I showed the first chapter to Crosby and said, "You know, I just have to tell this story." And he read it, and he said, "Yes, you do." (chuckles) "And you follow this through to the end, and I want to see how it turns out." So, he was magnificent, and so was our publisher. And we took six months and put the book out. And, you know, looking back, the whole O. J. case seems to be surreal and unimaginable from the perspective of hindsight, but it was a fascinating moment for me, because, again, my life and career have been so much about the power of celebrity. And I then found myself, I was on a book tour, I was doing Good Morning America, doing, you know, a variety of national, did Geraldo. And in doing that for this project, I understood what his celebrity meant, and how people could not come to reconcile that a famous person could be also a brutal killer. And the power of that, and the way in which that work was, it was part of the through line for me. Because I learned enormously about how celebrity perhaps, and not in a good way, impacts our sense of justice, and the way in which we treat one another in a society. So, it actually does fit. - So, what's ahead for you now, David? - Well, I've been working a lot on campaign finance reform, which, happily, has now passed the Senate, and is pending before the Supreme Court. We have a big fight on our hands in the future of our electoral system. What happened in Florida I think was the tip of the iceberg. What's happened with, you know, as someone who's raised a lot of money in politics, I've seen the abuses of it. We have, you know, not just passing one reform, and I'm proud of, I worked for a long time with McCain and Finegold, David Crosby and I helping to bring public support for yet another issue that we care deeply about, but it's the tip of the iceberg. Because there is a disconnect, people do not believe that their voice or their vote matters when someone can buy an election, or when they can buy the passage of a certain piece of legislation, or that's the perception. Whether it's the reality or not is immaterial, people believe that. And the sad thing about campaign finance reform is that people, while they're for it, don't believe it makes any difference. And that's the battle, the battle is to change that, so the people think that, you know, they do matter, and one person does make a difference. That's the lesson, that's the thing I hope people take away from what I've done. - Well, it certainly sh shows up in California, where we see the numbers of people, and percentage of people, registered voters, who even bothered to vote, you know, going down, and down, and down. I've always had sort of an ambivalent attitude towards campaign finance reform. And not just because I need money to get elected, but because I don't have any of my own money. - [David] Right. - And it just seems to me that so long as the Supreme Court has said that the expenditure of money is speech, I wonder, under any aspect of reform, how one gets around the well financed candidate who just has to have breakfast with himself. - Right. (Sheila and David laughing) - And order a second course. - And give himself $3 million, and you know, off you go. - It's quite a tip that you leave at the end of breakfast. - [Sheila] Yes, exactly. - I think that the court is moving in the direction of reversing the idea that money is speech. Some of the decisions that have come down since Buckley Vallejo in '76 show that they're moving away from that. I agree with you, that's a fundamental problem. I think public financing is the only solution, and these reforms are the road, in my view, toward creating a climate for that. And those states that have already worked toward a public financing system, those cities that have done it, it's working. It's gonna be a long haul, just getting this little reform, relatively speaking, of banning soft money took seven years. - [Sheila] Right, right. - So, I agree with you, but you know, I'm a liberal. I'm a passionate liberal. - Yes, and you have to push somehow, or things never move at all. - Right, and I think we've accomplished something by showing that there is a need for change. But I think what I preface that by saying is that we can't stop here, this is not the end game at all. And that's something that, you know, I feel very good about, because again, it brought artists together, it brought other people to give voice to this. And Crosby calls, you know, the money in politics, in that way, the key log in the jam. There's so many other things now, and I've heard a number of people be very articulate on how healthcare is tied to that, the environmental reforms. I mean, if we really deal with it, we're doing something important. On the other hand, the Human Rights Campaign, no Fund, has a very big fund, and has grown wonderfully, and I think is certainly in the top 10 of political action committees. And that's great, this is not an effort to ban political action and organized groups to support the views and the policies they believe in. So, that continues, and should. - Well, we like to get information about the people we're supposed to vote for. I like to see a commercial, but I wish that it wasn't so crafted. You know? Because I never see anything real about anybody. Except of course the mail that I send out, because we're in a way down ballot race, and, you know, at my level, and we always tell the truth in our mailers, so. - Tell Sheila Kuehl to stop, you know, stepping on small animals. (Sheila laughing) You know, call her now. You know, that's what it's been reduced to. - Well, and interestingly enough in California, now that we have a limit on the amount of money that people can give you directly for your campaign, you see it kind of squirting out the other end of the tube, and there are "independent expenditure committees" who are not limited in what they can take in, who are not limited in what they can spend on your behalf or against you. They just can't talk to you about it. So, you see a commercial come on against your opponent that is the worst, sleaziest thing you've ever seen, you haven't ever seen this, you don't know these people -- - [David] And you can't do a thing about. - And they all call your campaign office and say, "How could you do that to that nice man? I'm not gonna vote for you." - Right. - [Sheila] So, it is just as complicated as it's ever been. - Curiouser and curiouser, as Alice said. - Very much like falling down the rabbit hole. It's interesting to me though, that in all of the places that you've gone, you've been out. I mean, people know that you you're a gay man, they know that you've been active in the community. Has that made a difference, do you think, to them? To your work? To, I don't even know where this question's going, it's a big -- - Well, I'll try and find it for you. I think it's over here. (Sheila laughing) - And I didn't mean to keep you from drinking your coffee. - No, no, no. You know, one never knows the effect we have. I remember thinking back to something that was, again, one of those places where we came together for the Human Rights Campaign. When I came to California after those dinners, I came back to organize city committees for the Human Rights Campaign. And I came back to my dean, and I said to her, you know, "We need to have a co-chair for Los Angeles. They want two people." And at that point, as I recall, you had yet to publicly put your name on, endorse in any way, any gay or lesbian project, you were very active in the woman's movement. - Right. - Now, you had helped me to become an openly gay man, there's no question about that. The notion of being an openly gay man was so foreign to my consciousness when we first met, and in that six years or eight years that had passed, there I was speaking, you know, I've spoke in Utah and Wyoming, and on this tour, and came back to you. And I know that my being out, and you're getting to see that, and we talked a little bit about this, had to have had an impact. Just as you, in turn, then had an enormous impact on me. - Talk about paying it forward. - Well, right. (Sheila laughing) Exactly, exactly right. It was, you just push it down a little bit, push it forward, push it down field. And I can't know. I mean, I know that when I worked with George Magazine, and John, or when I worked with members of the Kennedy family, when I work with rock and roll artists, when I work with film actors who are not gay or lesbian, and some who are and closeted, I know that just being who I am, I can't do anything more than be who I am. And it's not about proselytizing, it's simply being comfortable in your own skin. And if I've been lucky to be able to become that, you know, it's in no small part thanks to you. - Well, and again, you know, you did pay it forward. I was at a place, I wasn't afraid to be out, I was out at work, I was out, you know, I had just entered into a relationship with a woman who was just about to become the executive director of the Gay and Lesbian Center in Los Angeles. It was gonna be, you know, it was gonna be pretty public, but it was a real step for me, and I felt fearful about putting my name on as co-chair of the Human Rights Campaign Fund in Los Angeles. But it was you, David, so of course, you know, I always do it. I mean, you are not only the go-to guy, but you're the never say no to David guy. - Well, you know, it felt really good for me to know that I could help make it safe, you know? And I knew that what we were doing was something that was not gonna be a one-shot wonder, that this had legs. And it may not have kept its F, but it has legs. And, the thing about that experience, I mean, that really is, speaking of the larger experience of, do we know what our impact is? Not immediately, we just do it. And, you know, we're lucky. I mean, I consider myself so lucky to get to do what I do. Which, you know, wherever it's been, I just try and, I said this to someone once, there's no job description, you're just gonna get David Bender, and I'll be the best one there is. - Well, I think of the things that wouldn't happen, or wouldn't have happened, and I don't mean in my life, I mean in a lot of people's lives and a lot of enterprises, were it not for you saying, "Say, do you know him? And do you know her?" And something will happen, but it's not accidental. I mean, that is your job, you're the person who brings people together. And really, when I say you're go-to, I mean you make it happen. Because I don't know, somehow you apparently know everyone ever born in the entire universe. (laughs) - Yes. And it's so cumbersome to keep those files, you know? (Sheila and David laughing) I had to get an extra room just for the W through Z, you know? But yes. And I like that, you know, if I could have a dinner party to introduce everyone to everyone else, I suppose I would do that. And I've done that sometimes. - [Sheila] Ooh, what a great idea for a book. - Yes, a very big dinner party. (Sheila laughing) But no. And that's how you change perceptions, one person at a time. You know, you don't save the world all at once, you can't. And I mean, I look at you and I think, you know this, this has been what you've taught me, and so I feel a little ridiculous telling it to you, but I'm telling it to, you know, everyone, which is something that we've both learned and shared, is that when you can look into the eyes of an 18 year old, frightened kid and know that you've helped him or her to be a little less frightened, you've changed the world. And that's, you know, what a gift that is. - Well, you're not gonna believe this, because it seems like only 10 minutes, but the whole hour's up. So, I want to thank you very, very much for sharing this hour with us. And I wanna thank you all very, very much for sharing the hour with us too. You know, you never know when one thing that you do in your life, or people you bring together, or people that you help get to where they want to go is gonna make a difference, so I hope you really do those things, and I hope you get used to it. (upbeat instrumental music)