Get Used to It: Ep. 86, "Teaching Tolerance in Schools"

(typewriter clacking) (upbeat music) - Hi, welcome to get "Used to It". I'm Sheila Kuehl, your a host. And today, as usual, we have a really great show for you and three wonderful guests. There's been a lot of discussion lately about tolerance, and about how the best place for us to start to learn about tolerance and to make peace is right away in preschool, elementary school, in our schools. And we have three people with us today who are engaged in this work in one way or another, and a discussion about those who are not so much in favor of this work and what we also try to do about that. My first guest, Norma Bowles, who is the artistic director of a theater group called Fringe Benefits, about which you'll hear more in a minute, and the editor of a magazine called "Cootie Shots", which you'll be able to buy actually in a bookstore in anywhere in the United States. Welcome, Norma. Happy to have you here. - It's great to be here, Sheila. Thanks for inviting us. - You bet. And my second guest, Cynthia Ruffin, who is also a member of the company of Fringe Benefits, but she is an actor, a writer, a poet, and a teacher. Welcome, Cynthia. - Thank you. - Happy to have you here. - Very excited to be here. Thank you. - Thank you. My third guest is Myron Quon, who is the deputy director of the Lambda Legal Defense and Education Fund here in Los Angeles, which is not directly engaged at the moment in some of the suits we're gonna talk about, but certainly part of this issue. Welcome, Myron. - Thank you. - Norma, let's start with you 'cause people don't really probably know around the country yet, about Fringe Benefits. Tell us a little about this theater company and how it came to be, and kind of how you came to be with it. - Okay, great. Fringe Benefits is a groundbreaking theater company that was born in 1991 with work with GLBT Street Youth. Fringe Benefits works to turn lemons into lemonade. We turn the lemons, that hurt that comes from discrimination, into lemonade. Plays that heal, plays that help reach out to people and let them know that discrimination hurts. - And where do you perform? - We perform these plays, "Cootie Shots" included, most currently- - So "Cootie Shots" is the name of the set of plays that you perform? - "Cootie Shots" is our set of plays for elementary school students. And we have performed all of our plays K through 12. "Cootie Shots" is for kindergarten through sixth grade and we've performed in public schools and private schools, and Catholic schools, churches, temples, and community centers throughout California, and even in New York city. - Now why do you do this work? I mean, what does it kind of mean to you and what do you get from it? - I began this work because as a child I had been a perpetrator of hate speech, certainly. I'd just called other kids names. I had been the target of that and I'd been a bystander as well. And all sorts of put downs for all sorts of reasons, people trying to be cool, people posturing. And I also grew up getting to do theater as an actor and as a student and a director and just enjoyed so much what you could learn doing theater and what you could communicate to other from your heart to tickle the funny bone, to reach through to other people's hearts, and realized that it could do a lot through theater to reach people and help them understand that name calling, bullying, discrimination is so destructive. And the "Cootie Shots" book in particular. I've got it with me. - And there it is. - So proud of this book. "Cootie Shots" is about early hate crime prevention. It's an anthology of really fun plays, songs, and poems four years in the making, 500 youth, parents, teachers, and professional theater artists collaborated and contributed their words and their art to help get across the message that every man, woman, and child deserves to be treated with respect. - And how are you received in schools? I mean, do you go and say hello to the principal? We've got a cool play about tolerance of every single kind in the universe and would you like us to come and perform, or do you involve the kids in the performance, or how do you start with this stuff? - How we start is we work with school teachers and parents first in creating the plays and editing them and making sure that they're all age appropriate. And then those parents, and those teachers, and the students often say, "We want you to come to our school." When we first began "Cootie Shots" we thought we'd reach maybe 20 schools, but the demand was huge from the get go, over a hundred schools invited us and we ended up reaching over a hundred audiences of elementary school children, over 25,000 youth. We talk the teachers and the principals through what's included in the show and make sure they really understand that we're inclusive, that we deal with all kinds of families, and all forms of diversity. Ways that we've been received in schools too? Here's one, that's sort of a, not a typical story, but I think a really important story. One school, we heard that a kindergarten mother was very upset that we were coming and she was going around and talking to the other kindergarten parents, the teachers, the principal, and saying, "Keep your kids home from school. "This is gonna be a horrible thing "that's coming to our school. "We have to protect our children from it." She kept her child at home, but she came and she saw the play herself. And afterwards she apologized to all the other parents, to the teachers, the principal, and she bought a book on tolerance for the school library. - Now there's a good story. - There's a happy story. - Now what do you think she was expecting and then like, didn't find kind of? I mean, you must see this more than once. I can't imagine that everybody would go, "Oh, isn't this wonderful. "We're gonna have, you know, "plays about tolerance on the basis of race." Well, we can do that, that's okay, that's American now, but gay lesbian stuff, I can't imagine everybody just welcomes, even if you call it tolerance, skits that have anything to do with our community. - Yes. Yes, though the play includes tolerance based on religion, and race, and disability, and class, and gender, and appearance, size, weight. The fact that we also say that it's important for people to be appreciative of diversity in families, that not all of us have a mom and a dad. Some of us have one mom or two moms, two dads, an older brother who might be gay. We say that everybody, whatever family structure they have, needs to be treated with respect and I think that there are sometimes families who think that to say that you have to respect someone, no matter what their sexual orientation, nor their family structure, is to say is to start talking about what people do in the bedroom. And we don't go near that in "Cootie Shots," it has nothing to do with sex. But I think perhaps some people think you have to talk about sex, to say that it's okay for someone to be gay, or for someone to have two moms or two dads. - Well, it is interesting. I think that one of the tasks that the right wing has taken is to define us as being only about sex, not sexuality, but about sex. And that's how they say, you know, you don't wanna have anything to do with them because it's the whole notion of being gay is not age appropriate from their point of view. So do you think that's what this mother was thinking would happen in this play that she kept her kid home? - It would be my guess that she thought perhaps something would be said that was not age appropriate, or that had to do with sex as opposed to about tolerance. - But don't you think tolerance sometimes is a dangerous thing? - In what regard? - Well, I sense that people would feel, if you wanna control what people think and believe, you know, in a very, let's say even in a religious sense, that it's a very dangerous thing to let in another message. I think isn't this why parents want certain books taken out of the library, et cetera? - I think you're on the right track there. It's just so hard for me to understand, for instance, one of the religious trainings that I think is so exciting is the Unitarian, which asks their young people to keep thinking about questions, keep raising more and more questions, to have the courage of their convictions and beliefs, but to keep learning and being curious about other people, different cultures, different beliefs. - Well Cynthia, how long have you been involved with the Fringe Benefits? - For four years now? - And how did you get involved and why? - I met Norma the opera and she like, (ladies laughing) No, well because she was talking about it, I mean, I teach, I've taught for years and I teach theater mainly. And what she was talking about was so in line with my thinking and my philosophy, just the idea of early hate crime prevention, the idea that we really have to talk to children when they're young, because when it's something that you said earlier, and I agree with so 100%, I think that children are born loving, and children are born wanting warmth and wanting touch, right. And I think they're taught to be intolerant. I think they're taught to hate, and we do have to kind of retrain them. And I think the earlier that we get in and start talking to them about diversity, I really don't like, I know the word is kind of tolerance, but I really don't like using tolerance. I so much more appreciate diversity and celebration, celebrating peoples for their differences. So I believe very much in getting in early with that message of, you know what, what you came up with and what you know to be real is what's right, and all that other stuff is stuff that you're learning and stuff that's coming from somewhere else, from outside of you. And that really fuels me, fuels my passion, and I love working with young people, really inspired by young people. - So what's the experience of your audiences? What do they say to you after they see a performance? If they come up and talk to you? - They do, well it's built into the show. One of the things, yeah. So it's built into the show that we actually do have a talk back, a question, answer period with them, and then we invite them to come up and say hi to us, and you know, and they're so excited. So a lot of schools don't have shows that come into their schools, you know, so it's exciting to see stars. Oh yeah, you know, it's like we came in and brought them a movie, you know. So mostly what we get, what my experience talking with young people afterwards has been this incredible sense of validation. You know, like we talk about why we do the show, what brought us there. And one of the things that I say, and we kind of have a rehearsed thing that we say stemming from our own experience. And my experience was that when I was a kid, I was always called a tomboy. I was called a tomboy, my dad told me what's wrong with you, wear skirts and stay out of that tree. And I have so many young girls who always come up and talk to me about, "Oh my gosh, people call me boy all the time. "And they call me tomboy, "and they invalidate me for being who I am." And so just the whole idea that I'm validating young girls and boys and just giving them a voice and letting them see that, oh, I'm real, and wow, and I'm not what you expected me to be, huh? That's okay. - And do they keep this lesson with them do you think? Or is it like a show to them? - Both. I think it's a show to them, and one of the good things about it being a show is that everybody likes a show. Everybody likes to be entertained, and to laugh, and the idea of being able to feel your pain or just go right along there with you. So yeah, it's a show, and I think because it's presented as a show, it's theatrical, I think it stays with them. - So you were talking about taking a group of kids to The Museum Of Tolerance here in Hawaii. - [Cynthia] Yeah. - Was that part of the school stuff that you do or part of this stuff? - I also work for another nonprofit. I work in an art based after school program. I teach creative writing, I teach literacy through creative writing. And one of the things we're dealing with specifically, is the beginning of this semester, is we're looking at issues of diversity, and tolerance and oppression. So we have spent this entire month dealing with, we started with Native Americans, by reading "Island Of The Blue Dolphins," spoke to a native American storyteller. We looked at the civil rights movement and freedom writers specifically. We did journal writings on being a freedom writer. This week has been all about the Holocaust and what happened in the second world war. So we spoke to a Holocaust survivor this week and went to The Museum Of Tolerance yesterday and just talked about how the whole idea of remembering so that we don't let history repeat itself, and the whole idea of contemporizing all this stuff and bringing it right home, you know, not only bring it to what's going on today, you know, the Taliban and all that, but bring it right to the schoolyard and say, Hmm, how does hate get perpetuated? And what does it feel like when someone says, "Oh, I hate you," and you've gotta one up them and one up them. So it's a great experience just because it opens up this great big dialogue. - You know, it's interesting, my experience in the legislature has been a surprise that I've had at what an attack there is on culture. I mean, I should have known it. I mean, people want the NEA defunded, and they want, you know, radio not to be there, and no public this and no public art. And it seems, everybody says, "Oh well, they're just attacking art, "and it's bad art or something." but it seems to me there's an incredible power somehow that is threatening to people whose messages are the opposite of tolerance and the opposite of this. What kind of barriers have you experienced say in Fringe Benefits, or doing "Cootie Shots" or any of this culture work from parents or schools when you go in? - Well, like one of the things that Norma was saying a moment ago is that people it seems, one, there's the fundamentalist belief that really anything that's different is we don't want anything that speaks of difference. I mean, I think sometimes it speaks a little bit more than the feeling that we're instructing sex. It's a feeling that, no, anything that is gay is wrong. And we don't want our children to see you as someone acceptable. We don't want them to even look at you as an acceptable person. So, and it's just such a resistance to anything that's not what they are. - Well, I remember there was a piece on PBS, I guess, a class in the south somewhere where the teacher was teaching about evolution and it was to a group of maybe 10 and 11 year olds who had only been taught what the Bible said about creation and creationism. And when the teacher started talking about this theory of evolution very gently with these young people, they were stunned. They started to cry. They were terribly, terribly upset that there could be another truth. And I think sometimes that parents feel, maybe righteously, I mean, you know, that they want to protect their children from some other information because they're either not able to handle it or something. And I don't know if you've ever had a direct conversation with parents who told you why they didn't want you have. - Well, I have heard that, that very argument that they're too young to handle this information. And really they're not too young. I mean, a lot of the time we look at children as lesser human beings. I mean, we call them kids and that kind of invalidates them, and they're not human beings they can be talked to. And I'm finding, especially the age group that I work with. I work with every day 10 to 14 year olds., and I find there's such a place for there to be an easy dialogue. There's such place for me to show them respect, and for them to learn what respect is by my modeling it to them, and then in turn to learn how to be respectful to me in terms of how we speak to each other. And sure there is age appropriate language, and I think it's one of the great things about "Cootie Shots" is that it is handled in such a wonderfully age appropriate way, but there's age appropriate language, but very much we can talk to young people, and let them have a dialogue right back with us, and let them have ideas, and let them have opinions. Might not agree with all their opinions, but we can say that we don't agree with their opinion and they can say that they don't, you know. And I think parents aren't willing for that to be there. I think by and large, almost as a society we aren't willing to do that, to let children have their voice, to let young people have voice. - But I think that's right. Well, Myron, you're actually in this in a kind of a different way in the mix because we've been in the business, certainly from my point of view of sort of mandating tolerance. And if you're not going to have it, you're going to have to at least not discriminate in the schools. And it certainly led to a backlash, I think. And frankly, there's been a case filed recently involving this troop in Northern California. It's not really your case, but can you tell us what you know about that case? - Sure. It's a case involving the NABALA Unified School District. Essentially there's this radical right organization called the Pacific Justice Institute and they filed a lawsuit against the district and they're arguing that the stuff that Norma and Cynthia are talking about, the work that they're doing, they're trying to argue that it's a violation of the law, and clearly it's not. In terms of what they're doing, they're basically saying Norma and Cynthia are going out to schools, trying to do their performance, but there's one part of their performance that's bad, and the part that's bad is the part about gay people. And the way they try to claim that the law prevents it from happening is that the part about gay people violates the sex education code. In other words, they're doing this thing that we see again and again around the country where the radical right will say gay equals sex, sex means you need parental permission and there's a way of opting out children from exposure to sex education. And again, that's totally wrong, that's not true, but it is a tactic that they're taking right now. - The Pacific Justice Institute has never been very happy about my bill that protects students against discrimination at school. Are there other cases that they're sort of interesting at, it feels as though they're thinking of ways to kind of attack this law. - They've attacked diversity, and tolerance and acceptance education in many different ways. Whenever there's been any gay, straight alliance activity in schools, they've certainly tried to support parents who are against the formation of gay, straight alliances. Again, the parental opt out issue. They've tried to help parents remove students from teacher's classrooms if the teacher ever talks about gay issues, or is openly gay, or supports gay issues. Whenever there is the possibility of a local school district, or local school itself passing a sexual orientation, non-discrimination policy, again, they're there trying to support parents on the other side saying, "Well no, you know, "you can have a non-discrimination policy, "but don't talk about gay people, "don't use the word sexual orientation. "We think harassment is wrong, "but do not list sexual orientation "alongside race, religion, or disability. "We don't accept that." - Well, what do you think about this? I mean, people are generally pretty, I think supportive of parents saying, "Look, it's my child, "I want my child to have the experience "that I want them to have." I mean, what's wrong with it. - To a certain extent they're right. I think that when you send your child to public school system you should have a say, but again, in the United States, we have things set up a certain way, and that's called using a school board. So in other words, parents are able to advocate on a local level by electing a school board and by talking to their school board members about issues that are of concern to them, that's absolutely fine. But in terms of any parent, whether it's a progressive parent or a not progressive parent, going into the classroom, trying to tinker around with curriculum, trying to totally hold the entire school system over a presentation on diversity, that doesn't make any sense whatsoever. So that's certainly one point. And the other point is, again, what we're all what we're talking about is one thing, diversity, acceptance, and tolerance. It doesn't make any sense for anyone, anyone who wants to have a healthy school system, and have a healthy state or healthy nation, try and oppose these sorts of initiatives. - Well, it seems as though, you know, we don't have any laws mandating hierarchy, but it's a sort of regular fallback, I guess what we'd call now with computers, the default position where this thing that Cynthia was talking about, where I do something and then you do something, and then I do something and it's always the other guy's fault. I think in America, we took a major giant step in the last half of the 20th century and started to say, thanks to Dr. King and the civil rights movement, no, not anymore. You know, this is not gonna be a country that's about who's better and worse. This is gonna be a country about equality just like we wrote in all of our documents. The tough part is making that real. And interestingly enough, the student group that is organized to help bring to the schools programs that will uphold this law of anti-discrimination is called Making It Real. - Correct. - That's the name of this group. And they are a very courageous and innovative group of students, but they really couldn't do it without the law. I mean, to some extent, I see that we have not two different sides of the same coin, but a kind of a synergy where the law needs to back up this notion that we have that diversity is a good thing, and tolerance is a good thing, and the law says, and we really mean it. - Right. I mean, there's even beyond that, it seems to me there's several things going on. One is certainly make it real is one of the pieces of the puzzle of having of peer training, and it's really about empowering the youth. Because again, we can pass laws and we can try and tell kids what are the right things to do, but unless their peers believe it and say it, and kind of bring the message out to everyone, it's not going to work as efficiently. And certainly again, it's beyond empowering them and sort of advising them and sharing knowledge with them about the law. You also do need lawyers and advocates who are willing to go into the school boards, going to meet with principals and superintendents. Because again, all around the country, I'm always dealing with students who know their rights, have laid out a paper trail in terms of what's not going right at their school district. And at this point we really need a lawyer or an advocacy group to come in and push it to the next level. Because despite clear laws saying you can't discriminate, you can't treat these students differently, they're still being discriminated against. - So it's a national problem? - Oh, it's clearly a national problem. - And you work with Lambda in other states or with organizations in other states? - I mean, Lambda's a national organization. So in terms of the work that I've done, whether it's teacher harassment, student harassment, gay, straight alliances, that's across the country. I do have our focus here in the Western region, attend Western regional states. But again, I've spoken to people around the country on these issues. I've gone to GLSEN conferences, the Gay Lesbian Straight Education Network. And again, I've worked with the NEA. So I've worked with many different organizations, all of us who care about youth and student issues and trying to ensure that it is a safe environment for everyone. - So are there issues in other states similar to this where you have sort of programs concerning tolerance and diversity in schools that are being attacked as well? - Oh yeah, definitely. I mean, in terms of, again, you had the story about creationism and how there's sort of this conflict or this tension. Certainly anywhere in the country, we're having the exact. In fact, I just spoke to Carolyn Wagner, she's the vice president for PFLAG. This is actually going on in Arkansas right now, is exactly what's going on. She contacted me just a few weeks ago because all of a sudden in this small rural school district, this parent has shown up with this so-called parental opt out form claiming that her child should not be exposed to gay issues, because that would be a violation of the sexual education code for that state. - So this seems to be sort of a national project, as I might say, on the other side, because if everybody shows up suddenly with the same opt out form, this is clearly, you know, a great email list at work or whatever exactly, and must be part of a national sort of movement to make certain that these kinds of issues about tolerance get attacked at a very fundamental level school, by school, by school. - School, by school, by school. And also it it's really frightening to me in that they go ahead and argue that, you know, something about this so-called parents' rights. And again, parents certainly do have rights, they have rights to elect the local school board. They have a right to enroll their children in public school versus private school. But again, if you focus in on the actual issue, does the law truly say that kids can't be exposed to gay issues? And that's not true at all. I mean, again, what Norma and Cynthia are doing and all these other people are doing, they're just trying to talk about culture, they're talking about acceptance, they're talking about discrimination, they're trying to create a safe place for all kids. That's all that's going on and that has nothing to do with sex education or sex. - So you were saying that, before we started the show, that you guys had been in New York after September 11th and doing sort of performances. Have you found other kinds of intolerance growing? I mean, we were worried about, you know, Muslim kids, and Arab kids, and everybody sort of picking on them suddenly because they're gonna be, you know, the enemy. Have you found that as well? - Well, certainly touring the show when we talk to the youth, every single reason that a child can be picked on, they will be picked on for it, by each other and by adults unfortunately as well. From wearing glasses, to being larger than the norm or smaller than the norm. And Cynthia told me a heartbreaking story and I don't know if. - Yeah, we've got one little boy you know, and that's kind of speaks to our need to, especially in the schools, to really talk from the top down, everybody's gotta be on the same page of not tolerating discrimination at all. November probably, it came to my attention that we had a boy at our school named Osama. - [Sheila] Oh wow. - And he was being tormented, tormented. Spitballs, rocks, kicks, fist, cuffs, everything. He was being tormented and it was not being dealt with by the school. It finally got dealt with, and the solution finally was that he would be released from school 15 minutes early so he could get a head start on his tormentors and they would start calling him Sam at school instead of Osama. - Oh my gosh. - And that is I'm speechless. - Well, this is a lot with gay kids too. It's kind of like, well you know, it's your fault you're gay. And I'll tell you what, this notion of getting a headstart on your tormentors it reminded me of a TV show I saw once where you were the prey and there were the hunters, and they said, you take off 15 minutes and the rest is sport. - [Cynthia] Yes. - I wanna add too, that when you were saying, what are you met with when you call up and speak with schools about bringing your show in. "Oh, wonderful, wonderful, we're so glad you deal with diversity issues and make sure to say to them, we include dealing with sexual orientation. Oh, well we do have a lot of children calling each other fag on the playground. Elementary school. - Yeah. - That's so gay is the big put down. We have to deal with that in the office a lot, but we're really nervous that our parents won't feel comfortable with us dealing with it proactively. Now proactively seems pedagogically, and they will agree on just about every other issue, the way to go. You're proactive so that that child doesn't ever have to be called a fag, doesn't ever have to be chased or beaten up. You let them know at the beginning of the year, this, that, and the other language is not okay. It's okay for people to be who they are and to treat each other with respect. - Well you know, what's interesting we were talking about how, you know, "Oh, that's so gay," was the big put down and everybody was very uptight in our community about that. And I reminded them, the older ones, that when we were in school, we used to say, "oh, that's so lame." - Yes. - And never did it occur to me that I was putting down people who were people with disabilities, never thought about it. And yet the choice of a word, you know, Connie Rice is a wonderful activist on all civil rights issues here in LA says, "Defamation always precedes annihilation." The notion that you'll begin with language or some attitude. I mean, this is why Cynthia, I think it resonates so much when you said, and you as well, Norma early, hate crime prevention. So do you think it works? I mean, we're adults, we've got this notion about what works with kids. What makes you think it works? - 100% Believing that it works? - Yes. For one thing I wanna just say generally the work that we're talking about here and the work that people are about in teaching schools K through 12, it's about creating wise, compassionate citizens. People who can relate to people of all kinds in fair and equitable, equitable ways. For one thing, we have a play in our book called "Four Heroes" where we talk about just what you said earlier about, you know, equality, we all believe in equality, but there's hard work in going about learning about and working towards getting everyone to treat each other equally. In "Four Heroes" we meet Rosa Parks, Susan B. Anthony, Cesar Chavez, and Harvey Milk, and learned how they each worked very hard to make sure everyone was treated with respect. In terms of the impact our work has, long term I received quite recently a fax from a teacher from a school where we performed "Cootie Shots" And this fax came through quite early in the morning, and it said, "I was just on the playground," wrote the teacher, "and I saw these two children "and they were calling each other names, "and I was just about to step in and do something about it "When another child stepped in and said, "You guys shouldn't be calling each other names, "don't you remember "Cootie Shots?" Then the teacher said, "so I didn't need to step in. "They apologized to each other and went back to playing." So there's a lasting impact to the work and we need to keep doing it. - And I just wanna add to that, just the idea too of opening a dialogue. I think there's so much power to just opening up a dialogue. I mean, I've been in instances where people have been afraid, you know, before the PC African American came out, there was not knowing how to, "Well, can I call you black? "Can I call you African?" And you know, and just the idea that, you know, Well okay, I prefer to be called yabada baba, you know. So it's on the table. and it starts to lessen it, impact is an issue because now it's something that we can actually talk about. We can open up our mouths and say, well, this is how I feel. And again, we may not agree, but it's something that we can actually talk about. And when you something that's there that can be talked about, then the problem solving has begun. Might not be halfway there, well, at least it's begun. It's like it's going in proactively. - And the words are really powerful. - [Cynthia] Yeah. - I mean, sometimes it's almost like a put down. It's like, well, I don't know what to call you. - Right. - You know. And if you gonna let me know, then you're also gonna put me in my place about it. It's not a put down, it's you know, whatever name I choose for myself. And I think often people feign not understanding in a way. You know, how can you call each other something that I'm not allowed to call you? Well, because that's how it is, you know. I mean, I get to choose how I use the word. - It's exactly like a meeting I had recently with the actually the LA County Sheriff's department talking about the gay lesbian community and its perception of the Sheriff's department. And it was a safe space more or less in that we had about a dozen activists from the community, plus two reps from the Sheriff's department. But I kept on saying queer this, queer that, and eventually one of the older gentlemen said, "Excuse me, what are you saying?" And I said, I'm really glad you're asking and I explained the history of the usage of the word queer. But I also explained I'm using it here amongst my peers. You should never say that when you're out in patrol, use LGBT you know, and then he needed explanation as to that as well. He said what's LGBT? So it's just, again, it really is a part of the beginning to try and address the problem at the very least. - And it's not an unusual thing in culture. I mean, with some people you say, can I call you by your first name? I mean, in a way it's the same thing. It's like what permission you ask for for a certain kind of familiarity. Calling by the first name or Mr. Jones in public. I mean, in our house, we refer to each other as Senator so-and-so, my esteemed colleague. And everybody goes, oh, well, you know, all these things, but it is a way of creating an atmosphere of respect even where there may not be one on a particular morning or afternoon because words are a powerful thing. And I think that in terms of our communities and the kind of language we use. It's important for kids to understand that language hurts as well. It was interesting when you started out this very thing Norma was talking about, making lemonade out of lemons. Can you say more about that? I think I understood, but from hurt comes healing. How does that work for you? - Exactly. One of the things I really is the best example of it is actually a play that Cynthia Ruffin wrote together with the Gutierrez family, and Fringe Benefits actors, and PFLAG moms and dads. Here's the lemon. We heard the story of Lydia Gutierrez and Mike Gutierrez. They told about how their fifth grade daughter had been tormented, teased, harassed, called names every day in school, fifth grader, because the children knew that her older brother was gay. So she was called all sorts of things that we could never put in a play that would be shown to other elementary school students. They shared that story with us in a play development session. We improvised, we acted it out, tape recorded it, and then Cynthia Ruffin and the Gutierrez family, and we all would look at the script and look at the story as it continued to unfold, as the family went to the principal, and went to the priests, it was a Catholic school, to discuss, how are we gonna handle this and make sure that the children don't do this name calling anymore. And Cynthia ended up creating this absolutely beautiful, powerful piece called "Doing The Right Thing." And it's lemonade. It helps the children see and understand what Natalie Gutierrez, the 10 year old girl, went through and how her family stood behind her, and how everybody teacher, family, other students in the school began to learn through her courage about doing the right thing, about standing up for yourself, standing up for your brother, accepting everyone. - Well, it's interesting to me, there's also a hierarchy of what's a bad kind of discrimination, and what's a not so bad kind of discrimination. I mean, we kind of run into this when we tried to do law about sexual harassment in the schools where we got a lot of pushback from people in the administrations of schools saying, "Oh, boys will be boys." You know, how the heck are we supposed to control this? - Hello. - I mean, and of course we heard the same thing in offices. But do you run into anything like that in terms of, well, this is a safe thing to do a play about because it's kind of a feel good thing, but this is not a safe thing. I heard you say about gay and lesbian stuff. You know, people don't think that's safe, but do you get objections to any of the other issues or is this kind of it at the moment? - People seem to be very responsive to all the pieces that we do, dealing with disability, religious diversity, race, class, gender, and by and large open-minded, fair-minded, educated people are really moved by and understand the importance of including GLBT issues in the same context. But there's, you know, when something is causing concern, when something elicits a response, a negative response, it is a GLBT play, a play that deals with GLBT issues. - They always want to take out my piece. - Right? - Just take that piece out. - Just don't say gay, just don't say gay. But I must tell you, that again, one of the principles who was concerned, we love the idea of your play, we're so excited about it, but can you just take out the word gay and all references to that? And I talked him through the play and I said, every instance where that occurred, some five times in the hour and a half, and he said, okay, that sounds reasonable. At the end of the play, he came to me and he said, "I am so glad you stuck to your guns. "That made a lot of sense, "it was really age appropriate, "and it's gonna really help our teachers discuss this "in an age appropriate, educational context." Because when we ask the children in the audience, who's heard these words before? All their hands go up. And unfortunately, most of them have seen it on "Jerry Springer." Most when they say where they've heard it and seen it, they've watched "Jerry Springer" in the afternoon. They hear kids saying it in the playground. They get called it, walking home from school. - They've heard it at home. - They've heard it at home. Mom or dad yelling it at somebody in the next car. So what we're doing is we're saying, it's not okay. We're not introducing any terms to them. - We're not introducing anything new, not at all. We're dealing with something that's that is right there, and we are really, really taking an approach, well, it's there so let's talk about it and let's move forward. - And you really don't tell the kids, this is bad. It's essentially, from what I've seen of the plays, it shows the hurt that it causes and hoping, I suppose, in a sort of a faith based way, that the kids don't mean actually to hurt each other that much, or if they do, they strike out of their own hurt or something. - Yeah, well that's also what we get all the time is like, "Oh, we don't mean it." - Yeah. - "Oh, it's just a word that we use." It's like, "Your shoes are so gay, "we don't really mean it." We actually deal with that in one of the pieces. So then if I said that those shoes were so black, that would be okay? Or if I shoot said those shoes were so Latino, that would be okay to say? It's like, well, no. But you know, so then we start looking at, okay, well then it is hurtful when you say those words. - And they really get it from a standpoint of what's fair. Kids really, really have a strong sense of fairness and equity so. - They do until they think they're gonna lose something, and that really comes from the outside I think. So what's next for Fringe Benefits? What are you guys doing, planning, thinking about? Where's this book go? How do people use it? - Great, well, there's all sorts of great things are happening with the book right now. - Yes you know, everybody's saying, "Why don't they read something out of the book." But you know what, I don't think I'm gonna have you do that, I want everybody to buy the book itself. - Yeah, yeah. There is a wonderful free curriculum guide available on the GLSEN LA website. Www.glsenla.org. - So that's G-L-S-E-N? - .org. Glsenla.org. - Glsenla.org. - And that has language arts, social studies, PE, cooking, all sorts of different tie-ins to the 56 plays, songs, and poems. - That makes sense, actually. - Also, the publisher has afforded us a wonderful opportunity to follow up the work by going into the schools and doing theater for social justice workshops. We're doing free workshops for schools where the children work together with us and their teacher to create an original play of their own to deal with a discrimination issue they think their campus needs to reckon with. In some schools it's disability, and others, it's the new kids, and some it's race, it's whatever's appropriate for those schools. We're working on a Spanish language video (speaking in foreign language). A group of Latina moms who saw our play for their children asked us to come back and help them create a film to help their husbands understand how these issues hurt, affect their children. - Wow. And what's next in the legal world, I guess it's a network from what you've said. I mean, you're in contact with lawyers in other states and it's just interesting to me how these things come together. You know, here you are and it's like, we're just doing this positive, really sweet and wonderful thing, and the kids love us, and then boom, you know, somebody else really doesn't want you to do it. And it's kind of like, you're the hobbits, you know, and you're doing good things, and suddenly there's a big, bad world out there. - Right. I think there's still some areas. I think in terms of the formation of gay, straight alliances, we finally, as a nation, understand that that's okay and the law requires that. I think the three areas that we still need to work on are curriculum, where again, it's very related. But again state managed curriculum and having inclusiveness and diversity, and tolerance as a part of integrated part of K through 12 education, we're not there yet. Again, just still anti-gay harassment where Lambda is representing Derek Henkel, a kid who was harassed terribly during high school, his high school years in Nevada. So again, throughout the country, I think there's still cases of anti-gay harassment that require litigation to resolve. And again, this is so called parental opt out thing. Again, I think the laws on our side, so there's not really a lot to be worried about, but I think it will slow us down and I'm worried that these radical right people will, again, sort of just slow down progress by putting out these red hearings and making administrators, and principals, and teachers afraid to do the right thing. So those are sort of areas right now where we need to kind of like keep an eye on and try to do as much litigation, as much proactive discussion. - And has this suit worried you guys? - Well, I tell you, yeah it does concern me that schools and school districts have to be spending time and money dealing with things like this, that they should be spending, taking care of their children. But the good thing that's come of it is that many of our supporters, the Anti-Defamation League, National Conference For Community And Justice, southern poverty laws, teaching tolerance programs, all of these programs which include in the roster of diversity issues that they support, they definitely include support for GLBT youth. They're coming out loud and strong and saying, we still believe what we've always said that everybody needs to be treated with respect. - And what were you guys doing in New York? - Well, I didn't go to New York. - Oh, I'm sorry. (ladies laughing) - I do get to write about it. I do get to write about it. - You get to write about it. - Yes, we actually, one of the things you're talking about where we're going in the future, one of the things we're doing is, Christina Nava and I, who's also another company member, we're creating a newsletter. So I get to interview everyone who went to New York. - And is this somebody who went to New York? - Yes, so what did you do in New York? - What were you guys doing. - Tell us. - We had a grand, grand time in New York. We got to- - Well, I feel bad for us. - I'm so sorry. But we had a wonderful time hooking up with people from different universities from Connecticut and New York. Universities and theaters, and school boards who want to produce "Cootie Shots" and tour it back east. And there folks in Chicago who want to do it, and here in Los Angeles, there's middle schools and high schools where people wanna produce "Cootie Shots" their own tours and take it around. - Now you said that "Cootie Shots" per se, is really zero through six, but then you talk about middle schools and high schools. Is there also a set of plays for them? I know age appropriate. - Well one of the things is- - Quite different. - We went out and toured with this show as playing the parts. And one of some of the interesting things we saw a high school last week that did a couple of the pieces, and it was so cool to see younger people, not that I'm not very young, but it was so wonderfully cool to see younger people then doing these plays, because then it's such a great form for younger people to present to even a younger audience, it's a great form for that. And the workshops that we're teaching in theater for social justice workshops that we're teaching Norma, you know, said more than once children, but actually it's going through the whole spectrum of young people. Last week, we were in San Francisco teaching theater for social justice workshops to high school aged kids. And I've been in Agora, teaching in Agora, and dealing with some of their social justice issues at their school and teaching them how to build a play to talk to their peers about it. So, you know, a lot of the stuff in the book and some of the stuff that the company's doing is really hitting a broad range of kids. - Well, you know, the experience that you have in high school about this, it changes you in a way that isn't just about the message of tolerance. Participating in doing this stuff. I mean, I don't know whether you were actors from a very young age, you know, I was. - Yeah, I was, yeah. - It changed me in terms of the things that I was engaged in and what, you know I wanted to do. And I'm always interested to know kind of what leads a person into ending up making their career working for social justice, 'cause it's kind of a, it's an interesting thing. Was it something that grabbed you as a kid? I mean, what did you think about. - You know I think it always had. Well, apart from the fact that I was a handicapped child. I had a leg length discrepancy that I still have. so I went through all of elementary school with a big lift on one shoe. So I had one big old (clunking), right, one big shoe. So I mean, but I was still a very big athlete, you know. So then in grade six I had surgery, big, long cast and crutches. And so I think that's partly it. And I also had an uncle that I was very close to who was intellectually handicapped, and who I was always very close to. So I don't know, I just think it's always been just a part of my life and a part of how I've communicated and who I've communicated with. And so really, really young, I started working with, I mean, my first degree was in counseling. I counseled teenagers, and so I think I've always worked in that. - Well, it's interesting 'cause I work, you know, all members of the gay and lesbian community, and at some point we come out and even if it hasn't been about us to begin with, it's about us, you know, from that point on. Although people of color, of course, experience this from day one. So it's not like you have to come out. - Yeah. (indistinct) - Right, I also wanna say that Fringe Benefits is ready, willing, and able to travel to any part of the country and do theater for social justice work to help young theater companies, or schools, or anyone, community centers, get started in creating their own anti-discrimination plays. - Well, we're gonna put up a, you know, phone number and address and everything where people can find you, but I don't wanna skip over kind of what got to the point, how early in your life you started thinking about fairness. 'Cause I was just thinking off on what Cynthia said about involving kids in doing these plays and the impact, even when you're in high school, about not only thinking about it, but engaging in the work of social justice. - Okay, my earliest memory, Cammy, I won't give her her last name. I was in Sunday school and this young lady said something about Jews going to hell. And I looked up to my Sunday school teacher and waited for her to say something to contradict this and I don't remember anything coming out of her mouth. And that hit me very early and it hit me very strongly. So that coupled with having the tremendous joy and good fortune to get to study with wonderful teachers of all kinds and to get to do summer theater programs. In my high school we did, "The Me Nobody Knows." Beautiful piece written by children from the inner city in Chicago, Los Angeles and New York. Powerful story about that life. And it just felt so important to me that everybody's voice be heard and respected, that everybody be cared about, that we are all interdependent. It isn't just blood that connects us. We all have a responsibility to be there for each other. - And what got you into this social justice business? - Interesting, similar to Cynthia, as a person of color it kind of hit me at an earlier age, like age four. At the time my parents owned and ran sort of like a mom and pop grocery store in Point Richmond. And pretty much very early on, I saw that there was discrimination against them on a daily basis, both from wholesalers and from the customers based on their race, their national origin, immigrant status, accent discrimination, every way possible. Pretty early on, I saw that they were being treated differently in a bad way for no rational reason. - Well, I just think these experiences, I mean, I don't have to tell you 'cause you're engaged in it and we all did it. But the other thing I can't believe is the hour's already up. I mean, it was- - No. - I tell you, I just had such a good time with this show. I am so very pleased that you were all here. Thank you so much for being with us and sharing the stories, and thank you for being with us as well. You know, if we can just get this word out the earlier the better to the kids, because if they learn about tolerance, they'll just get used to it. (upbeat music) (upbeat music continues) (upbeat music continues) (upbeat music continues)