Get Used to It: Ep. 175, "Don't Ask Don't Tell: Is It Over?"

(upbeat music) - Hi, welcome to "Get Used To It." I'm Sheila Kuehl. And as always, I'm going to guide you through this wonderful hour. We have a very timely subject today. Don't Ask, Don't Tell, which has just recently been repealed, but we're not sure is it over or may not be over? So I have four wonderful guests today. I want you to meet, we're gonna talk with them and hopefully, answer all your questions. Thanks for being with us. My first guest, Tom Carpenter, who's on the board of the Servicemembers Legal Defense Network, and co-chair of the Forum on Military Chaplains. Welcome Tom. - Thank you for having me back Sheila. - Really happy to have you here. Next to him is William Hayes. Who's a specialist in the army Reserve. Mr. Hayes thank you so much for being here. - Thanks for having me. - You bet. This is Corporal Evelyn Thomas, who is the executive director of the Sanctuary Project Veterans. Thanks for making the long trip to be with us. - Thank you. I'm honored and humbled to be here. - Well, we'll see. I'm honored to have you. So we'll see who can be most humble about this whole thing and finally last but not least as they say, Peter Renn, who's a staff attorney at the Lambda Legal Defense and Education Fund in Los Angeles. Welcome Peter. - Thank you for having me. - Well, Peter, let's start with you because I think a number of our viewers know there is such a thing as don't ask, don't tell, but maybe a little history would be helpful starting maybe right before don't ask, don't tell passed what it was like in back in the day, as they say. - Sure. So don't ask, don't tell was a law that was passed in 1993 under President Clinton, but as we all know, essentially banned open service for lesbian, gay, and bisexual service members. But the starting place for discrimination in the military, as you alluded to actually goes way back before that there was all the way back in the times of the revolutionary war, even policies against sodomy that were essentially used to kick out people who I think we would now realize today are gay, but they may not have been known as that at the time. And it really wasn't until I think around World War II, that the military began focusing, not just on sodomy, but on "Homosexuals as a group of people who were deemed unfit to serve." So that policy has been around for a long, long time. Well before 1993, and we've seen it enforced in various degrees. There was uneven enforcement for quite a while because the military would sometimes kick out some gay people and yet not others again, under the pre don't ask, don't tell regime. And there used to be an exception that was sarcastically known as the queen for a day exception, which was "Queen for a Day," apparently was a television show in the 1950s. - [Sheila] Right. It was. - A precursor to modern day reality television, where I think women would win a prize on the show. And so the reason why it came up in the context of anti-discrimination was that some service members, who were seen to commit homosexual acts could still stay in the military if they could prove, that it wasn't likely to happen again, whether it was because they were drunk or they were coerced. - [Sheila] Boy was I drunk that night? Yeah. - Exactly. - [Sheila] I think we all heard that. - The queen for the day exception. So things really tightened up of course come 1993, President Clinton had run in part on a platform that he would repeal, or get rid of discrimination in the military. And the problem was I think that he had underestimated the amount of opposition that he would face in trying to do that. And his initial tact was to do it through executive order. - [Sheila] Right. - But after he was elected, he discovered that he didn't have the support of wide swaths of Congress. He didn't have the support of the joint chiefs of staff, even the public was modestly in favor of open service, but was still pretty split. And so in the face of all that opposition, of course, we ended up with compromise, which was sold as an improvement upon what we had before, which was an outright ban on gay people serving to the status quo, anti, which was essentially, you know, you can be discharged if you engage in a homosexual act, which includes marrying someone or attempting to marry someone of the same sex stating that you're gay, but that the government wasn't going to ask people whether or not they were gay. And so that is the policy that we've been up until recently laboring under for approximately 18 years. And I think history has proven that it was a pretty disastrous policy, even though it was sold as an improvement over what had happened before, we saw 14,000 service members discharged under don't ask, don't tell, and that doesn't even begin to talk about the harms that were felt I think by a number of service members, who had to conceal and frankly, sometimes actively lie, about their lives in order to not be kicked out of the military. And I think it also had a very harmful effect on the country as a whole, for even people like me, who frankly had no desire to join the military because it sent, I think a very, invidious message, that being gay is something that you should be ashamed of, that you should try to conceal. And that if you want to participate in the same parts of civic life as everyone else, then the price of admission is essentially to hide who you are. And so I think those harms are important to keep at the forefront of our minds. When we think about how incredible it is that we've managed to get rid of, don't ask, don't tell now. - Well, it is a status thing. I mean, really when you want to claim that people are less than full human beings, you would deny them marriage. I mean, it's not the first time we've seen it. You deny them the ability to serve in the military, even if they wanna serve their country. So what's happened recently that changed this? - So I have to say that I tend not to believe in miracles, but I think that politically, it was a miracle that we were able to get don't ask, don't tell repealed. And I think which happened in December of 2010, after pretty hard fought battle in Congress, including two votes in the Senate that were unsuccessful in passing the Repeal Act. But I think that the reason we got there ultimately was twofold. One was that in November of 2010, the Pentagon had issued a report, which basically showed that all of the parade of horribles that people had long trotted out in defense of don't ask, don't tell were completely unfounded. And that in fact, we could transition to a post don't ask, don't tell repeal world fairly smoothly. And that in large part, the military itself was supportive of that change. So I think that was an incredibly powerful. - But the report had been a sort of a condition really of the repeal, right? I mean, there had to be a study, there study had to show no great effects on morale, et cetera. - Correct. So the repeal act itself did say that also the certain key military officials, including the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, and President Obama would need to certify that repeal could happen without compromising military effectiveness. - [Sheila] Right. - And then repeal would happen 60 days later. So I think the science in general was one very important reason why we were able to repeal the law. I think the other important thing that happened was the litigation, and the anti-gay military policies have been challenged even before don't ask, don't tell. But the one that I think really was the catalyst for political change was the Log Cabin Republicans case, which was a federal lawsuit that was filed by the Log Cabin Republicans in 2004, went to a full blown trial in 2010, at which point, Judge Phillips out in Riverside, California declared the law unconstitutional for everyone under both the First Amendment and the Due Process Clause. And I think that that was frankly a kick in the pants to Congress. And it was a signal that if Congress doesn't do this, there's a really good chance the courts will do it for them and will do it on the court's terms, rather than on Congress's terms. - It also gives cover to certain members of Congress where you say, "Well, look, the court actually said it was unconstitutional, so I'm right in getting rid of it." - Absolutely. And I think it's a great example of the synergy that can happen between working in the courts and also working through the legislature at the same time, for precisely the reason that you mentioned. So essentially I think the combination of the Pentagon report, plus the Log Cabin Republicans case, led to the passage of the Repeal Act. And unfortunately, the Log Cabin Republican's case victory was recently at the end of September, dismantled by the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, at least for now. The Ninth Circuit said, "Well, the government has repealed don't ask, don't tell. And so we think that there's no live controversy for us to decide anymore." And I think that- - So it may or may not be unconstitutional, but we're not called upon to decide because it's been repealed? - That's essentially the court's position that it ought not reach constitutional issues if it doesn't have to. I think that the reason why that decision was wrong and may still be reversed on further appeals, is that there are still people who are experiencing ongoing harm. As a result of don't ask, don't tell particularly, some of the 14,000 plus service members who were discharged. And I think that if the court had been willing to affirm that don't ask, don't tell was unconstitutional, that would've gone a long way towards helping those thousands of people sort of regain their dignity, and also regain some of the tangible benefits that they should have been provided. But for this discriminatory law. - Well, Tom, you've been in this arena a long time. Tell us a little bit about your story. - I have. I was thinking last night, I've had people in every war from the revolution to the present in my family. I've got a nephew, who's a Marine Sergeant in Afghanistan, and a cousin who's an Air Force General. So I have a long military history in my family. My father was an army officer, and I guess he thought I was a little unusual when I decided to go to Annapolis rather than West Point, (Sheila laughs) which I did. I went to Annapolis, graduated in 1970 and then I heard the call of the infantry and decided I'd go into Marines, went to Marine infantry training, and then decided I really wanted to be a fighter pilot rather than be on the ground and dealing with hand to hand combat. And I went to Navy Flight School became, excuse me, an A-4 pilot, which is a single engine, single pilot attack airplane. I was on active duty from 1970 to 1975. I was in three Marine squadrons. At that time, I met another Lieutenant and we became partners for 20 years. And while we were on active duty, we really had a difficult time because we essentially had the liberal eye for all those years. And I think the critical point was when a good friend of ours who was a Marine major, he had returned from Vietnam after his second tour, he had two or three purple hearts, which you get when you're wounded. The silver star, which is the third highest award in the military was picked up at a gay bar in Oceanside, a month before he was to retire. And he just vanished off the face of the earth. He had been discharged, which meant he lost all his benefits, his retirement. So we looked at each other and said, "Well, that could be us." And at the time we were, what, 27? He was 42, and that many years that could be us going out the door and we just can't go on like this. So both of us left the Marine Corps. I went on to fly for Continental Airlines as a pilot. Then we both went to law school and practiced law for a while. And he died in 1992. And when he died, I decided I was gonna become engaged in the fight. Basically in his honor, I went to Washington with the campaign for military service. And because Strom Thurmond had appointed me to the Naval Academy. How's that for interesting rule. - I'd like to see that certificate up on your wall. - That's right. I've got a photograph of me and Strom Thurmond and we were both very, very young. (all laughing) - Yeah. He was 70. - That's right. Yeah. He died like at 101, I think. - I know. - But anyway... And I actually dated his wife in high school. - Now that is an untold story. - That is a very untold story. - All right. Good. - Right. But anyway... So they said you need to go and meet with Strom Thurmond while I was in DC. So I went and he wasn't around, but I met with his military liaison and the senior liaison, was none other than Joe Eli Wilson. And I spent two miserable hours arguing with him and telling him that this don't ask, don't tell was never gonna work. It was bankrupt from its inception because it went against the core values of all the military services. People had the little eye and they didn't get it. So when we ended up at don't asks, don't tell and Peter's rendition of the facts. I think are very accurate. The president wanted to allow open service, but Sam Nunn and other members of the Democratic party were against it. And so we came up with this compromise, which has been almost as bad as the ban with the number of people that we've lost. And it only counts to the 14,000 or so that were thrown out. There were countless people that just left highly qualified and highly skilled people that said, "Like me and my partner, we just can't live like this." So I then joined the board of Servicemembers Legal Defense Network in 1995, I started to work with them. I was the co-chair for seven years and I wanna correct one thing Peter said, it just wasn't the litigation. I think there was a huge effort made by Servicemembers Legal Defense Network. And we're joined with our allies from HRC. - It always takes organizer to get anything done. - It does, it takes everybody getting together. And one of the beauties of this movement, I think, that we should learn from as a community is we all have together and try to work together. And you know, that there's a lot of territorial fights that go on and that sort of thing. But somehow we managed to go to Washington and lobby and make this happen. And I really think the real key to our victory was personalizing the cases, and having the people stand up and talk about how it affected them. And it was for many, many years, that's what we did. And you saw people like Keith Minoff and recently, Faren Bach and Mike Allie, and the list goes on and on and on of these people that got out there and stood up, and put a face to what was going on and told stories. And I have suggested that maybe that's been the problem with end days is that you don't hear those kind of stories. You really need to do that in order to get the public attention and make sure that people understand what's going on. Because I think most Americans are very fair minded, but they just don't get it. They don't think about it. So at SLDN I was a co-chair for a while. And one of the things I'm most proud of is that we recognized about five or six years ago. The biggest problem we had in 1993 was with the chaplains. So we created this organization called the Forum on the Military Chaplaincy, started out with five, six, seven chaplains. Now we're up to 70. And we have been fortunate enough to meet with the actual chiefs of chaplains, advise them. We were asked to go to Washington to meet with the working group when they were doing their report, spent a lot of time talking to them about this chaplain issue. 'Cause we understood that that was gonna probably same situation. When we tried to repeal, don't ask, don't tell these chaplains would the evangelical fundamentalists, which have taken over the military quite frankly. And people don't realize that we got 70 or 80%, of the chaplains in the military are fundamentalists and they're very much opposed to this. So we were fortunate enough to be heard. And I think just today we found out well about a month ago, the Navy issued an order saying that they would permit marriages in states where marriage was legal, and that they could do those marriages on base chapels. And then they reversed when these chaplains and members of the Congress who opposed the repeal, started to scream and yell, they backed off and said, "Well, think about this later." Well later was today, the DOD set forth a policy going back and saying, "Yes, now we can have marriages in states where they're permitted. And that chaplains can participate off base and on base. And they can use base facilities for these marriages where they're permitted." - [Sheila] That's a big breakthrough. - That's a really big breakthrough. I'm very proud of the work that we did when you work for so long under the radar, no one even knows you're there. This is kind of one of the many hidden stories that I think will eventually come out about what was done, and what groups really participated and made this happen. So it's a joyous time for me. - It's interesting. When you said about sort of making ourselves known and telling our stories. I remember when Jean O'Leary and Rob Eichberg kind of invented National Coming Out Day. And the whole notion of it was people already know you, but they don't know you are gay or lesbian maybe. And so if you let that be known, then they say, "Oh, the nurse that took care of me in the hospital, my third grade teacher," whatever. It's very much the same with it doesn't always make people really love and understand us necessarily. - [Tom] Right. - But at least it puts a face on it. - It does put a face on it and that's such an important thing for people to do is to come out and be known. And I think that's one of the reasons our opponents fought so strongly against the repeal, don't ask, don't tell, 'cause they knew that this will have a huge societal impact because people are gonna go in the service, and they're gonna meet gay and lesbian people, and bisexual people. And hopefully one day transgender people. And they're gonna say, you know, "This soldier or this Marine or this airman is doing a hell of a good job." Maybe I came from a place where we didn't have many gay people, but now I know 'em and they're just like the rest of us. And that's gonna cause a transformation. I think it's gonna have the same sort of effect that Truman's order in 1948 did for African Americans. I mean, when they finally forced African Americans and White soldiers to be together, many of the White soldiers realized that they were just wrong in their view of. - Many of them did, but they have to keep learning the lesson over and over again. It's probably, what's gonna be same with us. Right. Exactly. Well, Evelyn, you are really one of those stories. - Yes. - Which you've now converted to service to a lot of other people and veterans. But tell us a little bit about your story. - Well, my story starts where I'm a descendant from a people that always have to fight for some form of equality in this country, Africans who had to fight to be considered whole, not three fifths. They had to fight for their freedom. They had to fight against the Jim Crow laws. They had to fight for a fair, and equal education. They had to fight for their right to vote, and they had to fight for their right to serve in the armed forces in a true essence, as a gay patriotic American. My battle be began on May 17th, 1986 that's today that I enlisted in the armed forces 17 at the time, two weeks before graduating high school, too young to sign a contract. So I had to get the permission from my mom to enlist in the military. And shortly after that, I participated in the military interest processing evaluation. And I went through the mental examination where they asked me two questions. And that was the only process for the mental examination. Are you a homosexual, and have you ever participated in homosexual activity? For the first time in my life, I realized that who I am and who I love was considered illegal, no one in my family, none of my teachers ever told me that I was illegal. And I knew if I spoke the truth, I would be denied to serve my country, to enlist in the military. So I compromised my integrity. I lied at the time I was in the Army National Guard. About a year later, I transferred to the United States Marine Corps where I was stationed at Camp Pendleton, with 1st Marine Division headquarters, Battalion Supply Company. My barracks roommates broke into my foot locker, stole my letter, read it. And they gave it to my commanding officer. I was ordered to report to my commander's office, standing in front of his desk at attention. He reads me my Miranda rights. The first thing that went through my mind is what crime did I commit? I didn't kill anyone. I didn't steal anything. I don't wanna go to jail. What did I do wrong? This next statement was, "Your roommates are afraid of you. They think that you're a lesbian and they think that you're gonna do something to them." Are you a homosexual? The second time within a year that I asked that question I began to vitally shake in my boots, literally shaking my boots, my commanding officer and my supervisor thought it was funny. They began to laugh. That's very same day they had three Marines who were sharing a room, move out of that room. They moved me into that room. They isolated me from male and female Marines for an entire month they came into my room and they trashed my room, and they harassed me on a daily basis. About a month later, they decided to transfer me with two other female Marines to a different battalion, to an isolated area of Camp Pendleton. We were "The problem Marines." One of the female Marines was caught shoplifting. She shoplifted a negligee out of the country store. The other female Marine was the girlfriend of the top drug dealer on Camp Pendleton. So I was transferred with a thief, an associate with a drug dealer because I was considered a criminal because I am a lesbian. And that's one of the reasons that I established the Sanctuary Project Veterans. I experienced it. I remember that that time of being in my room and being alone and wanting to cry, and having no one to turn to and didn't know what to do. And so going through that experience and then surviving it, that's one of the reasons I established a Sanctuary Project Veterans, because I know what it's like to serve in silence and to serve in secret and to live a double life, and to always be constantly walking on eggshells. When you discuss with your colleagues, what you did for the weekend to make sure you use the correct pronouns. And that's one of my stories and my story is not unique. There are many men and women who have went through the same thing. One of the reasons I established the Sanctuary Project Veterans, is because of a Seaman August provost. He was an African American sailor that was stationed with the amphibious assault unit five on Camp Pendleton, on June 30th, 2009 while on guard duty, someone came there, forced him on the ground, handcuffed his hands behind his back, shot him three times, poured flammable liquid over his body and ignited it. The Department of the Navy, when they first broke out the story, they said that it was a terrorist attack. And when he brought that out with the people in a general area, this happened in North county, San Diego county, people went on higher alert and they were terrified. But after they came out with that, his family and his partner came out and said, "They believed that he was murdered because prior to his death, he was harassed because of his perceived sexual orientation." And he went to superiors to get help, but no one helped him. He couldn't even go to the chaplain because under the don't ask, don't tell, chaplains do not keep confidentiality. So he didn't have anyone to turn to. And my wife and I, we live just less than a mile from the murder site. And this gut feeling went down in my stomach said, "I can't believe this happened again. They're gonna kill us off. They're gonna kill us till there's no one of us. There's not a lesbian, gay, bisexual, or transgender person living on this earth again." So I decided, you know, I couldn't change what happened, but I'm gonna make sure that it doesn't happen to another service member or a veteran. So we create a safe haven, 100% confidentiality we invite counseling, spiritual guidance, attorney, referrals, whatever they need. And we don't just service the individual. We also service the family because you have to remember, we have LGBT military families also. - [Sheila] Right. - Yeah. - So how did they find your project? These service members are at Pendleton or around the area? - When we initially began it's an activist outreach ministry. When we initially began the ministry, it was just to help the service members within the county of San Diego, because we have the Marine Corps base and we have many Naval bases within that area, but the word started to get out. We began to help people all over the nation, not just in that general area, because there are a lot of LGBT service members, a lot of LGBT military families that need help and support and guidance. - So how many service members take advantage of the Sanctuary Project? - Well, we wished more would take advantage of it, I would say about less than a hundred. And once again, each case is different. It's on an individual basis, some cases where we just give them someone to talk to, because they're going through a tough time. - [Sheila] Right. - Or some cases, we go visit them in the hospital. And some cases we help them if they're trying to obtain their earned and entitled benefits, we help them through that process. So it all depends. - I mean, there are a lot of people that see when things are wrong, but what led you to do something about it? Do you know what I mean? It's kind of different, not in this group. - When I heard about his death, I thought of Emmett Till, and as a kid, my mom used to tell me that story I mean, over and over and over again, I didn't understand it as a child. But now as an adult, I understand why, because she was preparing me for as an African American person living in America, you have to be prepared of what it's like for us to survive. And hearing Emmett Till he was murdered, just because of his skin color, Seaman August Provost, he was murdered just because he's gay and who he loves. And I thought, you know what? I have to do something about this. I have to do something to stop this. I know that I'm just one person, but if I can do something and prevent another death, I'm gonna do it. - That's great. I'm in awe. So Hayes, tell us your story. - My story it starts out sort of close similar to hers where I was going through MEPS. And the first lie you tell the military as you're looking at that paper that says, are you homosexual? Have you engaged in homosexual acts? And of course, you don't say, yes, you put no, 'cause you wanna continue on. - [Sheila] Right. - So that was the first lie I told to the military. 'Cause when I first joined, like I was 17 still in high school, I didn't even graduated yet. And I just wanted to get in for experience, benefits, be a soldier. So being kicked out because of don't ask, don't tell is like, I wasn't even thinking about it. I just wanted to get in, get through train and get it done. So as I'm going through training saying pressures, everybody else, you know, drill sergeants in your face. And one of my battle buddies as probably around week two, 'cause you get to know everybody. He asked me he's like, "Are you gay? Are you bisexual?" And I was like, "No, why would you ask?" He's like, "I don't know. I just wondered." He's like, "If you are, it's cool. But I just wanted to know," but still I didn't confirm it for him because I was afraid he might tell somebody else and then they tell somebody else, and then they tell somebody else. So I get through basic training, get to AIT first day in AIT my roommate within five minutes, he goes, "Are you gay? Are you bisexual?" So I'm like, "No, why would you ask that?" So it's the same story again, all through AIT. I didn't tell anybody because it's so easy to get removed from training. 'Cause you're not actually a soldier yet. You're still in training. So if they found out about that, they can just you're gone. No benefits, anything like that. So I get to my first duty station in El Paso, Fort Plus Texas, and it's going good. They're actually getting ready to deploy to Korea. So I was excited about that first deployment within three months of being active. So on that deployment or on the way to deployment, as I'm in processing, I see another soldier out processing and he's being kicked out because of don't ask, don't tell. So right then and there I knew that it was serious and I had to start to safeguard myself, because I was in it for the long haul like I wanted. I wanted my benefits. I wanted the experience. I wanted to go overseas. So at that time I became a recluse. I didn't talk to anybody because I didn't want any more people asking, "Hey, are you gay? Are you bisexual?" I didn't want any of that. So the whole Korean deployment, the first six months was probably the worst time ever in my military career. Because on an deployment, you know, you have to be a team member and I wasn't on anybody's team. I was just that soldier. And then I met another soldier. She's not gay or bisexual, but I could talk to her about it. And it was the only person I could talk to because you couldn't go to the chaplain. You couldn't go get counseling because if you said anything about it, you're gone. So I talked to her all the time and like, she helped me get through Korea and gave me hope about being able to be myself with her. 'Cause I needed to be myself somewhere because I wasn't myself anywhere else in formation. So I could be myself with her. And then getting back to the States, I was a little more optimistic about my service and then I moved to Fort Sill Oklahoma, and there with her, she was a medic, you know, medics are tight knit. So all the other medics you know about me and nobody cared. So it was like, this is getting a little bit better. So making friends with all these other people and joining groups, not necessarily with my own unit, but with the medic groups, it's still a group. - [Sheila] Right. - So, I'm sorry. So with her and the groups of medics, it was getting better. I should say, it started getting a little bit easier. So I sort of felt I was still hiding myself from my squad leader, my commander, my First Sergeant, but I had this group that didn't care. And that's where I started to learn that most people really didn't care. And I guess this is just my generation joined in 2006. So it's just this group of young people that just wanna do their time, doesn't care about you. As long as you get the job done. And that's what you're supposed to do as a soldier, just get your job done. - So you're in the Reserves now? - I'm in the Reserves now, yes. And I wanna say around January of this year, I found a group on Facebook called OutServe. And OutServe been a huge help in the whole process of being bisexual and in the military. And they have their main OutServe network. And then they have different offshoots of support groups. And I'm part of the Bisexual OutServe Network. There's only about 60 of us in there compared to the 4,000 in the main group, but we're still there. And that group, like they have announcements for like, I guess San Diego Pride was the first time, I guess a military marched in a pride parade and they put that announcement up. So I got to be a part of that. - So things are changing, but it was a hard time for you too. Still, even very recently. - Yeah. Up until September 20th, the repeal of don't ask, don't tell still had to hide half of myself up until that very point. - [Sheila] Right. - Even in the Reserves, you still have to, even though you see your unit only once a month, you still can't tell the unit or let them know that you're bisexual. - So all of you have really talked about benefits and families of service members. So we have this decision that we don't really, it's not unconstitutional anymore because we've got this repeal. But you said you all in a way have said there's still a remaining problem. So talk to me about this. - Just like in the military, we've learned that we can't leave no man behind on the battlefield. And even though we have the repeal of don't ask, don't tell there's still a man on the battlefield, our transgender brothers and sisters, because of the diagnostic statistic of mental disorder, there's a ban they still cannot serve openly. And due to the Defense of Marriage Act, LGBT marriages are not valid. We're still in a fight that we need to... There's still a battle, the war still rages on because you have those LGBT military families, they're been denied their earned and entitled benefits like their heterosexual counterparts. And so there's still a battle that we need to wage until that has happened. And one of the things that we must tackle is Defense of Marriage Act. 'Cause all those marriages can be valid and then they can claim the earned and entitled benefits. As a matter of fact, the Sanctuary Project Veterans, we have a mission, a goal. Our goal is to enroll 1 million LGBT veterans into the veterans healthcare system by 2014, because more likely than not, if they were kicked out under don't ask, don't tell and they received the other than honorable discharge. They were told by their last command that they lost all their benefits, but what the Sanctuary Project Veterans has discovered recently, as we trained to become veteran service officers that work directly with the Department of Defense, under the 38 Code of Federal Regulation, if you received any type of service injury, while in a line of duty, while in active duty, until you sign those discharge papers, all right? You can claim and you can enroll into the VA healthcare system. Even if it's just something minor. For example, you twisted your ankle while marching, and we've all been in the military and you march wherever you go, if you twisted your ankle and maybe that was 10 years ago and you're out of the military, and the same ankle is giving you problems. You need to go and enroll into the VA healthcare system because that is a service connected injury. Maybe you cut yourself, there's abrasion and it left a scar and it permanently disfigures your body, that is considered a service connected injury, any type of injury that occurred while in your service to the armed forces, you can claim health benefits, but it has to be service connected, even if you received an other than honorable discharge. And what we have discovered they've been misinforming LGBT people who have been kicked out of the military, because they don't want them to claim those benefits. - Well, let me add, you know, I think we're at a point where we now have open service, but we don't have equal service. And I think that's where we're gonna be looking going forward. The benefits are denied mostly to people that are in relationships, 'cause the military doesn't recognize these relationships. I was in a meeting in Washington with the working group and the general that was the chief of staff, turned to us and said, "I'm very concerned about the fact we're gonna create two classes of citizens in the military." He said "As a leader and a commander that's very problematic." And he turned to me and said, "Would you be willing to talk with us about a workaround of the Defense of Marriage Act?" And I said, "Well, General, this is the Pope Catholic. (all laughing) Of course I will." And I think they really do want to try to get around DOMA, but there's also other internal regulations that define dependence and spouses that they probably, could change pretty easily. And I quite frankly, I'm wondering why they haven't done that yet. They wanted all this time to train the force. They wanted a 60 day waiting period allegedly to address these issues. So maybe what we saw in regards to the chaplaincy today is the beginning of that. I'm very hopeful that they're gonna do just what they said they wanted to do, which is to try to make a level playing field for everybody involved. But I think the Defense of Marriage Act is gonna continue to be a problem. - So let me unpack this a little bit. - Sure. - So let's say you're in the service right now and let's say you're married. And you're a gay or lesbian person married to a person of the same sex, right now that person does not get the same kind of benefits that the spouse of a person in service gets? - [Tom] Correct. - Correct. Because the marriage is not deem invalid. - Because of DOMA. - Yeah, no ID card, no commissary privileges, no PX privileges. Can't go on the base. Can't take the kids to the dispensary in the hospital because they can't get on the base. The list goes on. That's all denied. - Some of those benefits are because of the Defense of Marriage Act, like family. - Right. - Health insurance is one that I think Evelyn pointed out. And some of them are administrative or regulatory. - Correct. - Which the administration could without Congress change. And that includes for example, family housing. So there's some things that the administration can still do that it has not yet done, but some of it is inevitably I think a DOMA problem. And until the courts or Congress repeal DOMA, then those problems will remain. There is another class of benefits, which I think fortunately have been fixed post repeal. And that is the class of benefits that are essentially member designated. So for example, life insurance or hospital visitation, any service member can designate anyone to receive that benefit. And some people chose not to do so for fear that without them essentially. So fortunately post repeal, at least that risk is no longer there. - So that's one kind of, I'm sorry. Go ahead Tom. - I was gonna say, and it's not a hypothetical problem. We met a woman at a press conference on the 20th when repeal occurred 1st Class Petty Officer in the Navy Loise Baptista, she's four months pregnant. She has a partner down in San Diego, Coronado. They have a six year old daughter. She was transferred to Great Lakes Naval Training Center outside of Chicago. She went into her commander and said, "Look, my partner, who's also in the Navy and I should be transferred together, which straight couples would be able to do." And they said, "Sorry, we can't do that. Your relationship is not recognized." So here is this young woman, four months pregnant, going to Chicago, leaving her partner behind with this child. Now what's she gonna do when she has that baby? I mean, that's a real world situation that we faced this week, and this is not makeup stuff. This is really going on. - So it may say seem simple, like you were saying, for example, if they were heterosexual and her partner was not in the military, but had to quit her job, in order not to transfer, they would actually provide her employment and she would get first priority just because she's a spouse of someone who's in the military. There's tons and tons of benefits that heterosexual spouses get because their partners are in the military, that LGB people are denied because of the Defense of Marriage Act. And that's a still battle that we have to continue to wage on, because until we're all considered whole or equal this battle will continue. - There's also another preliminary problem just beside the benefits issue. And that is when this law was repealed. All it really did was take this personnel issue from the Congress and moved it back to the military. And I maintained it as it sits right now, the military could through regulations go back and bring the ban back, or don't ask, don't tell. And because we don't have any discrimination protection, that's a possibility. And we've been pushing at SLDN the president to either issue an executive order or to have Secretary Panetta, change the Human Goals Charter to include sexual orientation in it, just like it does for the civilian non-uniform employees of the Pentagon. - Which already has that non-discrimination. - That's right. And that would cure it at least temporarily, but it wouldn't stop President Perry or then the list goes on to turn the clock back. I mean, that's the true danger. And that's why, what happened yesterday with the Ninth Circuit is so important. And in that we now have at least until there's another reconsideration on Banc, that's gone, that unconstitutional finding is now gone. So there that risk still exists. I don't think it's practical in the sense that once the cow is out of the barn- - Yeah, but maybe not currently, but like you say, I mean, things are... But haven't you found out with everything in life. I mean, things are always vulnerable. - [Tom] Yeah. - Things are always vulnerable to roll back. It always takes a movement. It always takes a new generation, saying, "Nope, I'm in the fight too." - [Tom] Right. - So we were talking about one kind of person, which is a person still in service and benefits. And there as you say, there could still be discrimination reinstated through the military itself. I don't wanna come back to the training that everybody is supposed to be going through, but let's talk about the person who was less than honorably discharged. So they are told you don't get any benefits. - [Evelyn] Yes. - And you're maintaining that with the ban removed, if they were discharged, because of that, don't ask, don't tell there's at least an argument that they should be qualified for healthcare at the VA. - [Evelyn] Right. - Where they were told that they weren't. - [Evelyn] Yes. - You're also maintaining that they should have gotten it all along because it was a service related injury of some kind. And therefore it shouldn't have been distinguished so that if you're discharged less than honorably, you still can seek service at the VA. If you were injured on duty? That's the question. - Excuse me. - [Tom] You wanna give a shot at it and see if you get it right. No. Then I'll do it. (all laughing) - So you have many LGBT people who are told by the last battalion that you don't have any benefits. So a lot of them don't even bother to enroll into the system or to research it themselves. Like I said, I'm a veteran service officer liaison and I train and I looked at the law and I was amazed and blown away, because it cannot be changed unless they amend this law. You have earned an entitled benefits. If you served in the military 90 consecutive days, and you were discharged with honorable classification other than honorable classification, and you accrued an injury while you were giving service to the armed forces, you have entitlements to enroll in the VA healthcare system. - Now, are there other benefits that you don't get because you were less than honorably discharged? - You don't get a flag when you die. - Well, I wouldn't make fun of that. I mean, people serve their country, serve their country. - You don't receive educational benefits. - VA, right. But I think if I understood your question correctly, these people that have less than honorable discharges now have to go through what's called the Board of Correction of Military Records, which is an administrative process. You have to go through at SLDN we asked the Pentagon to streamline that because it's an administrative process. Usually you have to have a lawyer and they go back and they take a look at what happened to you. And then they can go ahead and upgrade your discharge. And the Pentagon has said that if the discharge was solely because of sexual orientation, there wasn't something else to tain it, you know, not sexual misconduct that they're gonna automatically do that, but they won't create a streamlined system. You still have to go to the Board of Corrections of Military or Naval Records. So that's what all these people are gonna... And we're talking like 14,000 plus people. - But the fact that the Ninth Circuit said it wasn't, I'm so sorry. - Oh, I was just gonna add to what he was saying, but if they're just enrolled into the VA healthcare system, they don't have to go through that process. All they have to do is go online, they actually go to the- - But this is to really change the circumstances of their discharge, right? So you have an honorable discharge. - You gotta have to honorable or what's the other than? - Other than honorable. - Other than honorable. - Yes. - So the Ninth Circuit saying that don't ask, don't tell was not unconstitutional. Exactly is different from saying it's constitutional. Well, it's different. You went to law school, why? Because you had to quit. Okay. Does that make a difference in terms of a claim for benefits that a person could make after they've been discharged? - I think so. I mean, the Ninth Circuit essentially said, pretend as though what the trial court found didn't happen. No one can rely on it in future cases. And some of the people who might want to do that are people who let's say hypothetically had other than honorable discharge that was undeserved in some way, some of them might want, for example, to have full separation pay, because people who were discharged under don't ask, don't tell only get half of separation pay. And frankly, it's helpful precedent in other contexts too, for example, ongoing challenges, the Defense of Marriage Act in the immigration context where like the military courts tend to defer, to whatever the judgment of the military or Congress is. And so many people I think would like to rely on that precedent. And so I think it is extremely unfortunate that the Ninth Circuit chose to get rid of it. And all these ongoing harms we've been talking about are good reasons why it shouldn't have done that. Why it's still actually alive and ongoing issue. - Well, that's the argument I think to the 9th Circuit on banc is that you're saying it's not a live issue, but it is a live issue. - [Tom] Right. - Because of these factors that are ongoing, which leads me really my last question, which is where are we really going from here? I mean, what is the activity? What's the Servicemembers Legal Defense Fund doing? I hear what you're encouraging veterans to do. Is there organizing online and OutServe? Or is it more of just a social network? What's the next sort of legal thing? What happens next and what do we need to do? - Well, Servicemembers Legal Defense Network is working with the Pentagon to try to correct. There's like 40 issues that need to be addressed and they're working informally with them. And I think that's gonna be the hard work that we have ahead decide trying to get some statement of non-discrimination. And OutServe is just not a Facebook group. If I just talk about them for a second. - [Sheila] Please, - They were set up by Air Force Academy. Now I can say his name, Josh Seefried, about a year ago, he and a guy up in San Francisco, Ty Walrod, is his name decided that they needed to create this network. So they went on Facebook, you know, as you correctly point out it's a generational issue. They said, "How can I reach out to my contemporaries?" And they went on Facebook and put this group together. And in a year they're almost 4,500 people all around the world. They have members in Germany and Afghanistan- - [William] Okay, everywhere there's a base. - Everywhere there is a base. - [William] There's so many on there. - And they're having a leadership summit, the 14th and 15th of October in Las Vegas, with about 300 participants. I'm gonna be there with some of my chaplains. The DOD is actually sending official representatives I found out today that the West Point is sending cadets to it. We're gonna have representatives from the foreign militaries in uniform talking about their transition. So I think OutServe as the future of gay and lesbian people in the military. - And bisexual people. - And bisexual people and transgender, which is the other thing I neglected to point out is that SLDN is dedicated, to reforming those medical regulations so that all people that wanna serve their country can do so proudly, including transgender people. - So is that your experience on OutServe? I mean, it sounds like you kind of got engaged because here's a bunch of people like me. - Well, I got on there because a friend of mine that's in the military, that's gay. Somebody has to add you that's already in the group because it's a secret group. Like nobody from the outside can see it. So I was added in, I was like, "Oh, this is great. Look at all this information." It's really good at just sending information, like the whole repeal process. If you go back on Outserve look at from where it started, it's a whole timeline of the conduct that you're allowed to do on this day, this time and whatnot. - [Sheila] Wow. - And it just keeps informed. And it's really good because I guess, when the repeal happened before and they said, "All right, it's gone, but it might not be gone. So don't come out and then get angry." - [Sheila] 'Cause you can't go back in. - Yeah. You can't go back in once you come out. So like, stuff like that just keeps you informed. - So is there given the 9th Circuit challenge. Is that the next step legally? I know there are challenges to DOMA that are not related to the military as well, and that's going to probably dovetail down the line, but do you see sort of what the next legal moves are? - Well, I think that we haven't seen the last of the Log Cabin Republicans case, they've indicated that they will most likely seek review by a larger panel of judges. I think that it's quite likely that we'll also see some of these potentially benefit cases that we've been talking about, sort of start to percolate in the courts. And I think that we'll continue to see as you mentioned, DOMA cases, which we'll try to attack DOMA maybe on multiple grounds, sort of, you know, the more of the thousand plus benefits that are affected by that law, some of which may implicate military benefits. So I think that will continue to be major headline news in the next couple of years. - Do you see any people who've been discharged who now want to re-up? - [Tom] Yes. - [Evelyn] Yes. - [Peter] Yes. - That's interesting, given to the fact that they probably didn't have such a great experience. - What we see going on though, is there's a problem. Some of 'em are aged out, you can't go back in. Some of 'em are as physically fit as they were. Even if they get back in, then what do we do? Do they come back in the same rank? Because generally when you have broken time, they make you go down a couple ranks. What do we do about promotions? Their peers have gotten ahead of them. It's a complicated issue, but there are people that are going back because they wanna be in the military. I spoke to a guy today, he was a Sergeant he got thrown out. He was soldier of the year at Fort Sill and they threw him out a year later. And now he's going back in the army. They're making him go in the Reserves 'cause he's too old to get back in at what is he, 32 in the Reserves. And then he can come back in, the other problem is we draw down in these two wars. We're gonna cut people. Again, a hard time getting back in because the needs of the service always come first. So it's not a pretty picture. - It's a eerie knowledge to know that that the repeal of don't ask, don't tell could be changed. It could become active again, because recently, I participated and went to a talk by Congresswoman Susan Davis. And she said that it's really important that we make sure that we have a Democratic president, because if a Republican becomes in office, they may enact on don't ask, don't tell again. The next step forward for the Sanctuary Project Veterans is one to advocate for transgender men and women to serve openly, to help advocate to end don't ask... I mean, the Defense of Marriage Act so LGBT marriages can be deemed valid. And also our next goal, like I mentioned earlier, is to enroll 1 million veterans into the VA healthcare system by 2014, because they have earned an entitled benefits and they served, so they deserve, I'm sorry. - I don't hear any regrets from the three of you really, having served in the military. I mean, difficult experiences, but one of the things that struck me about so many people, I know who served in the military, whether they were discharged or whether they came out afterward is their patriotism. I mean, it's interesting to love a country that didn't appear to love you, even though the notion of this country is quite different from discrimination, you know? In the military and other places, it's almost like something we wake up from slowly. So do you feel hope about the future in this matter? - I feel hope about it, 'cause if I didn't, I wouldn't have joined the Reserves. - Right. - 'Cause as soon as I got out, I enrolled in school, but I was like, "Man, I miss the military so much." - [Sheila] Really? - So I got in the Reserves even though being active duty and having that six month period where I was just at the lowest of lows, and because of don't ask, don't tell, even before it was repealed, I joined the Reserves because I love being a soldier. There's just something about it. - Yeah. - It's true. And I think some of the finest people I have ever met and worked with in my life were in the military, when they talk about honor and integrity, they really mean it. And I think people miss that and as Hayes pointed out, when you're in a small unit and that's what makes us win wars, and accomplished missions are people in small units, you're part of a family. And I think you saw when he talked about this, what happened under don't ask, don't tell is that you had to push these people away from you. The people that you're really the closest to in your life. I mean, they're like your brothers and sisters and you can't share your life with them. And the military said, "Well, if we allow gays and lesbians and bisexuals to come out, that it'll adversely affect unit cohesion," that's just the opposite. What's gonna happen in most cases, there's gonna be bumps in the road. But in most cases, I think it's a generational issue. And so many of the younger people today, I call them the "Will and Grace" generation, you know? They've seen it on television. They have gay straight alliances, all the progress we've made in our lifetime- - [Sheila] Right. - For acceptance. We're seeing that manifested in the military. So I have great faith that this is gonna be a non-event we're all gonna look back in 10 years and say, "What the hell was that all about?" (all laughing) I think it's gonna be just like what happened with African Americans? You know, in 1948, we all look back how in the world could the military have operated without the diversity that we find in the military today. And we're gonna see that same thing in the midst of it. - Unfortunately, our time is up went fast, didn't it? - [Evelyn] Yes, it did. - It certainly does for me. I thank you so much all four of you for being with us and for your service and your work, and telling your stories and being with us and thank you for being with us as well. The military is part of us in America and we're part of it. So get used to it. (upbeat music)