Get Used to It: Ep. 173, "Learning About Our Lives: LGBTQ Curriculum in Schools"

(typewriter clicking) (instrumental music) - Hi, welcome to "Get Used To It". I'm Sheila Kuehl and as always, I will try to take us through this incredibly interesting hour. And frankly, this is an incredibly interesting hour because in California, there's been a somewhat new development in terms of curriculum in the schools where California has had on the books for quite a few years mandatory inclusion of positive information about people on the basis of race and gender, national origin. Never has this existed in terms of sexual orientation or gender identity, and now it does. Sexual orientation, gender identity's been added to these codes in addition to the code that says "and no negative stuff" about people on these basis. If you have something negative to say about a president of the United States or anybody, that's fine. But not on the basis of race or gender, national origin, or now, sexual orientation or gender identity. So that's what we're talking about today 'cause there's a big bruhaha really about whether curriculum should be politicized like this and if you agree with me that that's not politicizing, we'll see by the end of the show. I have three great guests that I want you to meet. The first is Daniel Solis who is the Southern California Program Manager for the Gay-Straight Alliance, GSA Network, which is a statewide organization now of GSAs. Judy Chiasson, who is the coordinator for Los Angeles Unified School District of Human Resources, Diversity, and Equity. Its office that really has as its charge trying to get people to treat each other equally and understand each other. And welcome, Judy. Welcome, Daniel. - Thank you. - Thank you. - And Benji Delgadillo, who is a high school student who's been an activist on these issues and actually went up to our state capital and testified in favor of the bill, which is always a very brave thing for any student to do. So welcome, Benji. Glad you're here. - Thank you. - Daniel, let's start with you. Maybe it would help people 'cause they're not all from California, people watching this show have a little history about sort of what's the problem. What's the connection between a problem and using curriculum to solve the problem? - Well, sure, Sheila. As a lot of your viewers will know, lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender students face a lot of harassment and bullying in schools. They face isolation and rejection at home and they often risk that with their peers. Some schools have Gay-Straight Alliance clubs, some schools do not. So there's a lack of really uniform support systems for these students. So students might have a really great experience if they're lucky to go to a great school with great staff, great school climate, a Gay-Straight Alliance club, but they might not have that chance. So it's really at this point, it's kind of a luck of the draw, where you happen to be born, where you happen to live, and what kind of school environment you get settled into. - But there's a difference between, or at least people think there is, between school environment and school materials because materials are generally adopted for all schools in a state or in a district, right? - Yeah, so the state standards are set by the Board of Education for the state and then those get implemented and really fleshed out by each local school district since we do have local control of schools here in California. And it might seem to be kind of an odd way to address bullying and harassment going through curriculum, but the reality is that we have had some studies that show that when students, and all students not just lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender students, but all students learn about the contributions of LGBT Americans and how we've been present in almost every movement for justice, how we've been present in many periods of history, that we become humanized, that we just become real people with real history, with a real presence in our communities dating back for many years as opposed to kinda these stereotyped ideas that often get portrayed in the media or through family or through some other institutions. And so, really learning the history of seeing how folks have struggled, have been there in World War II and other eras really is like, "Oh okay, these people are people. They're humans like me. They're part of my community. They're part of this country." So, it really personalizes who we are. So even if they don't necessarily meet an LGBT out person in their lives, just knowing the contributions of LGBT Americans really helps demystify and break a lot of stereotypes that a lot of people unfortunately still have. - Of course, there's a couple of aspects to curriculum really in terms of this kind of approach. I remember when we first started this bill out. Just talking about what it would do, there's the aspect that you talked about. It's kind of role modeling where... You know, Langston Hughes was not only a great poet. Langston Hughes was gay. James Baldwin, et cetera. Then there's the other aspect of the history of the LGBTQ movement which is a more political human rights kind of issue where it was about rights and about people banding together to say there ought to be equality. So does the curriculum bill in your... As you've approached it, does it say you need to teach about Stonewall, you need to teach about Harvey Milk, et cetera? - Well, just to clarify the bill, the Fair Education Act actually doesn't stipulate specific things that schools have to teach. Rather, it trusts local control and it trusts communities, parents, teachers, educators, and students to come together and really decide how to implement this law in the way that makes the most sense for their community. So the law doesn't actually say you have to teach these specific items from history or these specific constant standards. Rather, it just says make sure that you include LGBT Americans when we're talking about underrepresented communities like women, African-Americans, Mexican-Americans, and that you do it in an unbiased and non-stereotypical way. So as part of that, we do envision that school districts will wanna teach about not just Stonewall, but also about the current civil rights movement, even if it might be politicized. But really, we believe that having these additions to the curriculum will really reinforce the sense of America that relates about us coming together and pursuing a more perfect union. And the idea is that we might not always get there, we might not always agree, but as a country, we're moving forward to being a real democracy in a place where people can be who they are. And so we think, approach from that angle, there's no reason you wouldn't wanna talk about the civil rights movement of LGBT folks. - Have you been working on this for a while? - Yes, we have actually. As an organization and as a movement... I mean, you yourself know that this bill, since you were the first person to introduce it when you were in the assembly, it's a critical bill and for a lot of us who work with young people, we saw this connection early on that it's great that we do trainings for teachers, it's important that we have students that are empowered, that they're having Gay-Straight Alliance clubs, that people are getting the skills to really support these students. But we also realize that if we're really gonna become fully equal, people have to see us as fully part of our society. The only way that's gonna happen- - See us, period. - {Daniel] Or see us, period, exactly. - I mean, that's sort of invisibility has been part of the issue even if you didn't say bad things about us, which generally of course happened. - Yeah. And I mean, I remember when I myself was in high school coming out and starting a Gay-Straight Alliance club, I remember I went to a library and I found a book, like an LGBT history book, it was a public library, and it was like finding the holy grail. It was just this moment of like, "Oh my God, I'm not only part of a community, but I'm part of a community that has very deep roots, not just in fighting for my rights, but really fighting for the rights of other people." You know, like learning about Bayard Rustin who was fighting side by side with Martin Luther King for the rights of African-American folks during the civil rights movement to me was incredibly inspiring. And so what it does for students who are being bullied is just seeing that you're part of this community, you're not alone and that your community has been struggling and really doing beautiful, amazing things for many decades, so you should be proud of that. That is in itself is very life saving for students. - Judy, do you find the same thing in LA Unified? - [Judy] Oh, absolutely. - Say a little bit about what LA Unified has done and what you are doing. - Well, LA Unified has a very long history of it's very firm stance in support of inclusion and affirming environments for lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender students and staff. So we have... I think our first official proclamation was in 1988. So we go back a ways on this topic. - So the school board saying this is an aspect of inclusion. - Yeah, safe and affirming campuses since 1988. So we feel very strongly that all students and all family members in our schools should feel welcome. And one of the best ways to really show that we welcome a community is for them to be represented in the curriculum. I grew up... I'm old enough to grow up in an age when my curriculum was whitewashed. You know, and it wasn't until I started... When I got older, I started learning about really the richness of America and all that we've contributed. So we don't want our students to grow up in this isolated environment and not see what a pluralistic society that we have. So we definitely have advocated and practiced inclusion. We wanted to have sexual orientation and gender identity included in our book, in our textbook for health education. And at the time, there was no book. We couldn't even find one. There was a few, but they were negative. So our school board, the visionaries that they are, said, "Well, then you better get busy." And so we had to self-author it. And we worked with the publisher and we wrote the book, wrote the chapter anyway, and the publisher at first was a little reticent and then he went, "Wait a second, this is an untapped market." And now that particular health book is being marketed very widely across the country. And since then, other publishers have come forward to have more inclusive curriculum. - Well, you know, it's interesting how many aspects of curriculum there are. When you talk about a health curriculum, I remember when we were doing the bill to try to bring the sex education curriculum into the 21st century so that it didn't express negative points of view, that it was inclusive and fair essentially and not biased in terms of talking about sexual health and what that meant. And so, health is certainly an aspect of seeing ourselves in the curriculum. - [Judy] Exactly. - But what about history? What about social studies? Do they still have stuff like that? - [Judy] Yes, we still have it. (Sheila laughs) Knock on wood, let me check my email to see if I've gotten any... If there has been any changes. But no, we definitely still have history and social studies and what we have found is that we have not had a good selection of publishers who have had inclusive curriculum. That's why we're so excited about this bill is that we're hoping that the publishers will start to produce materials for us. So what we've been doing is we're making materials available for the teachers to incorporate them themselves. - You mean not as a "everybody gets one" but sort of "here's what you can use" when you say making them available? - Yeah, we might have things online. We sent... So I have lesson plans online on my website and different offices in LA Unified do. And so somebody could log on and pull down some lesson plans that might be incorporated into their curriculum. We strongly advocate for kind of this across the board, inclusion, recognition. I'm uncomfortable with having the gay chapter. I love the gay chapter. Excuse me. I love the gay chapter. I think it's very important to have a chapter in there on LGBT civil rights and I don't want this community to appear only on pages 110 to 115 because certainly LGBT individuals have contributed to math, to science, to sports, to every single realm of society. So we're looking at... Just kind of looking at how all people have had a voice and a presence in our communities. - Well, it's interesting because you identified kind of two areas that I think, and I wanna just tell you Benji, I wanna discuss this with you as well. But you were talking about people themselves seeing themselves, and Daniel said a little about this as well. Seeing themselves in their materials. Where am I in America? Do I see my face? Do I see my race? Do I see my gender and my sexual identity? And the other thing is when you're talking about diversity, the idea of diversity is not only, do I see myself? But do I understand them? - [Judy] Exactly. - So do you see a way that these things both happen in materials? - They need to. I mean, we're... I worked on a textbook adoption and it was so interesting because even just looking at the photographs that are on those pictures while we will intentionally select photographs that are representative of our school community. And we also have LGBT family members. 16% of our students have gay and lesbian family members. California is raising 65,000 children and being raised by same sex couples, and so people want to be able to see their parents and their brothers and sisters and their neighbors and their best friends as well. So it's not just about how it benefits gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender students, but how we all benefit by learning about each other. - LA Unified's a pretty big school district. - [Judy] Yeah, we're pretty big. - Do you know how big? - 700,000 students. - [Sheila] And there's... - 1100 schools, 750 square miles. - It's probably one of the biggest in the country. And I would think because LA County itself is one of the most diverse counties in the country, probably a lot of diversity in the school district. - [Judy] Very much. - I remember back in the old days, they were even talking about 72 different languages being spoken, and I'm sure it's much more now. - It's almost doubled now. - Yeah. - Yes. - And so you have a lot of people who may not be very comfortable with reading about, knowing about gay and lesbian people. I'm only assuming because you have a lot of people that probably aren't comfortable with racial diversity or are uncomfortable with girls playing sports. I mean, it's just the number, the sheer number. Has there been pushback on the curriculum? - No, not that has come to my desk or to LA Unified that I know of yet. One of the challenges is that I don't hear as many phone calls from people calling up and saying thank you so much for the great work that you're doing. And it seems to be that... As always, the people who pick up the phone are the people who are complaining. So I think that our school district would love to hear from the people who are happy as well as, as would our legislature. You know, people wanna hear thank you. - But did you get... Are you getting pushback or have you heard about... - The pushback- - Because you said, you know, you have that in the health curriculum. It's in the book. - Ironically, the pushback that I received was from outside California. So, I definitely got my share of mail and blogs, but they were people who weren't even in California. So I'm like, "Mind your own business." - Yeah, that's like during elections when the phone rings at four in the morning because the people calling from Georgia forgot that it's only four here even though it's seven there. - Exactly. So it's... I do believe that education has an important role though, in society. Brandon versus board of education. Often time, decisions are made about our communities, about social justice, about civil rights. The decisions are made in the course and they're executed in the schools, and schools have the obligation to create environments where everybody is welcome and affirmed. That's what we have to do. That's our charge as educators. We have to repair our children for the future, not for the past. - Well, here's one of our children being prepared for the future, I guess. Although I wouldn't say children since you're all grown up now, but... So Benji, here you are in the middle of really high school. And tell us a little about your own experience that led you to want to help fight for this change. - Well, first of, I was hearing a lot in the news and with GSA network and with the activism that I do about the Fair Education Act, and I thought, "You know what? That's right. I should be learning about LGBT people in my history classes." And you know what? I don't really care if it passes or not because I'm gonna go and I'm gonna take it to my teachers, take it to my school, and see what I can do about it. So I did. I got some people in my Gay-Straight Alliance club together with me and I went and I spoke to my history teacher about it, and I explained it to him. I explained to him my story and why as an LGBT-identified student at our school, I think that it would impact me a lot because there are a lot of negative stereotypes out there in the media that my peers, students are hearing and I think it would really benefit everyone if we learned about these contributions 'cause we're not hearing about them. And really what this learning about LGBT people in history does is it addresses a basic gap in the knowledge of history that these students have because there's so much that they're not hearing because it's been covered up by these generations and generations because the people were LGBT identified. So, I took it to my teacher and I spoke to him about it. And he didn't quite understand at first, but once I took it to a personal level and I told him why I really thought that it was crucial, then he actually took my advice and he added it into his PowerPoint, into his lesson plans, made little worksheets for us, and they did include the rainbow movement. It talked about the LGBT civil rights movement and our civil rights chapter. - Did it make any difference to you in terms of the way the class was about your own sort of existence at the school? - Oh, yes. For sure. I mean, before I never even... I most strongly identify with the LGBT community and I felt like the community of people that I most strongly identify with was being completely discounted, something to be covered up, something to be ashamed of because it was never spoken about in history. And I know that there is a deep rich history there. So being able to hear about that and learn about in class, I had never smiled so much during a lesson. - [Sheila] Aw! - I was so happy. And other people- It wasn't just me. There were other people in the class, other LGBT identified people, other allies, just people in general. And it really- It wasn't a big deal. There wasn't any outcry about it. People learned and a lot of people were really happy about it. - So do you think... I mean, we've seen studies that show that harassment kind of goes down. It's hard for me to kinda sometimes make the connection. You know, here we are and we're in a school and there's bullies and people who are joining the bullies because they think that's a cool thing to do and people who are being very brave and standing up to the bullies as allies, and then there's us going through what we go through with the bullies and standing up. And often people don't connect kind of what you're studying in class, what the teachers say with their everyday experience. So how do you think it affects people's behavior? You know, their thoughts. If they read now in a book or they hear from the teacher, "There was this really brave guy named Harvey Milk and he X, Y, and Z." Or you know, examples of our history. What do you think happens to a person when they read this stuff? - Well, I think that when a student learns about LGBT people or movements in history, you're not just- They're not just learning a fact. You're really... Like what it does is it promotes tolerance and you're learning about tolerance of different groups of people. And I would equate it to being like the women's movement. How before you never learned about women in history, and then you did. And then people started to be like, "Oh, you know, women are people too, and they're equal to us." And it was kind of a movement that came out of that as well and I do think that this is a crucial step in the LGBT civil rights movement in general, which is great because I do think that when people learn about these things, they hear tolerance and they hear more things and you really get a new perspective on things. Because a lot of times, you just hear what's cool. You hear what's cool around school. And sometimes, a lot of times, a lot of times around school, it's slurs toward LGBT people, whether directed at them or not, just said aloud and people don't really think about it. And these kinds of lessons will really give them an opportunity to stop and think about it, and think about the other side of things. - Judy said that learning tolerance, or more than tolerance actually, about diversity helps prepare students more for the 21st century. Do you agree with that? - Yeah, I do agree because I really see that the LGBT civil rights movement, it's continuing on today. And this is... I think this- Again, this is a step in it and people are... Soon, it won't be an issue hopefully. And you know, people will be more prepared and it'll be something that'll keep on going and people will be like, "You know what, this isn't so bad." And that will help our movement. - So have you had any response from your fellow students at school about the fact that you went and actually talked to a legislative body about this? Or did your friends know? - Oh yeah, my friends knew. They were very proud of me. They were really happy that I was going out there and doing it as a student, as a youth, as an LGBT identified person. I think that's really, it's an invaluable point of view and the experiences that I have today in high school to take up there to the legislators. And I know that my friends, they were all very happy about it. - And how about the legislators? What was your reception like? Believe me, I know what those hearings are like from... Well, actually I was a witness before I ran for office. I actually decided to run for office because I thought the people up there... Suddenly I realized they didn't know anything more than I did so I might as well run for office, you know? What was your experience in Sacramento? - I think it was a learning experience for me, definitely. - Say more. - There were, of course, always people that agree with you, people that disagree with you, and I learned a lot about people who disagree with me and their point of view. And also, I learned that there are a lot of people out there that agree with me, and that was really... That felt really good because sometimes I feel like when I'm just at my school, like I'm alone in this and there's like... There's not always a lot of support. But you know, when I go and I get with other people and we're all rallying together for something, I think it feels really good. - Yeah, when we had this bill up and other bills that affect the LGBT community, often there would be a whole line of people lined up against the wall waiting to come up 'cause we generally only allow two or three people to make the case kind of, you know, for the bill and against the bill. And then everybody else comes up and they say, "You know, I'm Jane Smith and I am for this bill" and "I'm Richard Jones and I'm against this bill" or whatever. And it always used to make me feel really good 'cause I would see teachers organizations and principals organizations and all kinds of things that would say, you know, yes. Were you surprised by any of the people who were supporting? - I don't think I was surprised per se, but I do think that it made me feel good to see such a... So many different groups of people in society coming out to support us. - Well, let me ask you all. There's been some critique. And I mean not just by people who are homophobic or people who are sort of the usual suspect, but all newspaper editorials saying that manipulating curriculum for political ends is really not a good idea across the board. You know, saying that it has nothing to do with us. What do you think about that? - Well, my media response to that is I don't think that the Fair Education Act is politicizing any curriculum. You know, it does even tag the local control that school districts have to partner with teachers, parents and students, and community members and really discuss what makes sense in their communities. So what's gonna happen in Bakersfield is gonna look different than what's gonna happen here in LAUSD and what's gonna happen up in, you know, throughout California. What the law is doing is just making sure that LGBT Americans, that our experiences are stories, our contributions are included, and that we be covered in a fair way. No one is saying that you have to say every LGBT person's amazing 'cause we're not. We're a human like everyone else. And this also just saying let's give everyone a fair shot. Let's give everyone fair coverage. And that's all it's doing. After that, let's stick to the facts and that's what history's about, so. - I don't think anybody would complain at this point about having women in history, African-Americans, Hispanic-Americans, native Americans. We certainly have in our Ed Code requires that we include positive representation and that had to be legislated. And so this is just, as you had referenced, we are looking to the future. This SB48 also includes persons with disabilities and Pacific Islanders. So would we expand that position to say that, is there a political agenda for persons with disabilities? You know, that would be unconscionable. They have an obligation, of course, to represent everybody and not just based on numbers. Just based on integrity. - Say more. I mean, I guess the question is more of a Martian anthropologist question which is... I think virtually everybody thinks it's important to control what students learn. I'm not saying limit. I'm saying mandate limit, you know, what's in, what's out. The biggest fights we ever had in Sacramento, frankly, were about what children have to study, what young people have to study, what they don't have to study. Think of it in the larger sense, you know? This math, science, pushing for that, history itself was discounted and may still be discounted. If you know what I mean. This is the notion that we're controlling something here. So what I want you... Let's talk a little bit about what you think is really accomplished in terms of the bigger goals for society by doing something like this. - Well, I think as... I mean, I think there's so much emotion and passion around deciding and discussing what students are learning. Because really, I think as Judy said, students, they're gonna be society. I mean, we're all going to leave this earth at some point and then the young people who we've educated will be the ones who will carry forth our society in our world. And so I think people realize that what's at stake here is really what's the shape of our country gonna look like, what is California's future gonna be like, what kind of society, what kind of values do we have. And I think people get really nervous when we start talking about values. And I think everyone wants to make sure that their way of life, their beliefs are continued and respected. And so I think sometimes we can get into the sense of competition that it's like my values are your values. And I think what really we... As a movement, what we've tried to do is say, it's not a competition, rather it's just about making sure that we have a place and a society where everyone can be themselves, be safe, be respected, and be free to pursue the kind of life they want to live. You know, and as long as it doesn't hurt anyone. And so I think that's maybe a reminder that I think some people need when we're having these conversations is that it's not necessarily a battle to make sure and impose our views on other people. It's just so young people like Benji can grow up to be who they wanna be, live their lives fully and respectfully, and other people see him like a human being that he is. I mean, that's really what's at the core of this battle. - It's also the marketplace of ideas. I was speaking to our librarian about this, the big librarian for the district. And I love what she said. She goes, "Everybody should be able to go into that library and find something that represents them and something that offends them." We need to have the full spectrum in there. I thought about that because, of course, there's my values. And of course, there's things that I may not be comfortable with, books that I don't want in the library because I think that it might promote some type of bias or... But she was right. Everybody should. We should be able to see the full spectrum of what's in front of us. We need to be educated learners. - Well, there's also the sin of omission. I mean, you were saying Benji that there's so much that you didn't see growing up in your textbooks, in your school. These are omissions that are purposeful. That's the thing that I think people are looking at this as an addition, whereas I look at it as filling a void that was created on purpose. There was a... It was on purpose that you didn't see any women. That it was on purpose that you didn't see any people of color. Why? Because they had no value. So, why would they be parts of history? You know? I mean, Mark Twain said something about how the history was generally written with the ink of prejudice. And I think... You know, I mean, there must be other omissions that we kind of don't know about. Why do you think disability was put in, for instance? Or why were there no API? No Asian Pacific in the law. We got first African-Americans, then Mexican-Americans, you know what I mean? Everybody had to fight for inclusion instead of sort of automatically being there. So there must be a lot that you were missing in your education. - [Benji] Yes. - You don't even know about, right? - Yeah. I mean, that's a good point. Up until this point, I'd never heard about these things in school and stuff. And I grew up with a kind of a sense in my head that like, "Oh, you're gonna grow up and you're never gonna be accepted for who you are by society." Like this is just a thing that doesn't happen and doesn't exist and that's because I had never heard about it from my school. I never heard about it anywhere, really, besides negatively in the media or in other places that are common to me around school. And I think what this would do is I don't wanna see other youth that come after me and the future generations have to grow up the same way that I did with those thoughts. I want them to grow up and be like, "You know, there I am. There's my place in history. These are my people and this is who I can be and this is who I am." Because I never had that. - We also have a lot of LGBTQ individuals in our curricula right now. You know, in our history books, math and science, they're in our books. We just omit the fact that they're LGBT. And so a lot of this also just kinda... This little bubble, by the way. And we just say, "And this person that you've been studying, by the way, is. This famous mathematician, by the way, is. Is LGBT, is African-American, is Asian-American. So was a person with disabilities. You know, would we talk about the accomplishments of Steven Hawkins and not mention that he also physically is, you know, has many, many challenges, but a brilliant mind. And so it's a part for us to have additive curriculum. It's not subtractive. - So how do you see this really affecting the next generation? Do you see... Let's say you're graduating, I don't know, half a million students. Not really that many but, you know, a lot from LA Unified in three years after maybe we've incorporated this curriculum. How do you see them better off in society or society better off? - Well, I can say that we've actually... We'll be able to answer that question very specifically because we're working with one of the universities at around... Alliant University is looking at our health education curriculum and looking at students who participate in it. It's a pre-sampling. So first, pre-post and then a year later. And looking at, does this change attitudes? Does it increased knowledge? Does it reduce bullying on campus? So we are finding that by having these kinds conversations, preliminarily 'cause the data is not done being analyzed yet. It's suggesting that just being able to have the conversation, but it has reduces a lot of the tension. I do believe. It was my wishful thinking that this is gonna be such a non-issue. I think that the next generation is gonna look at us and go, "That is so dumb. What was the big deal?" Actually, from some of the younger persons, I am hearing that. Like, "Whatever. I don't know why they're making a big deal of it. It's really a non-issue." And I really want diversity to be a non-issue. - I wonder if it ever will be. I'm sorry, Daniel. - I would agree with Judy. I think we're always gonna have our challenges. I think... You know, we're human beings. We're all flawed. We all, you know, have different... Good angels, bad angels that we're all struggling with. But I do agree with Judy that one of the wonderful contributions that this law will do is for the first time LGBT Americans are gonna be part of the fabric of society in a way that we have not been shown to be, right? We have been part of every community, every movement. We've been in every time period. But finally that reality will be acknowledged. I mean, the fact that an LGBT Ameri- Or an LGBT person invented the computer, for example. Like that's a fact that people don't know. When they're sending their messages of frustration around this law, they should remember it. That thanks to a gay man that they'll be able to send that email in the first place. But just things like that. I think it will be... Like Judy said, I think this issue of discrimination against LGBT folks will just be seriously reduced. I don't think we're gonna always agree on it and think everyone's gonna always perhaps share the view that we on this show share, but it will be, I think, a different society where folks can say, "Yeah, there was transgender people here. There was lesbian people here, bisexual people here, gay people here." And now this means that they are part of my society. I don't necessarily have to agree with everything they say or do, but they're part of America. They're part of this larger country that we're all part of. And so I think that's gonna be a really big shift for our society, our schools, and just really for the students themselves. - I feel like really over time what this will do is promote an understanding of LGBT people which will further lead to more of an acceptance and continue on like that. But I really think that it's important that this will... That students being exposed to this, it will promote an understanding and they will understand LGBT people. And it won't be this weird thing anymore where they have to pick on them or something like that. - Well, we've had an interesting thing happening recently about Minnesota. - [Judy] Yes. - And I think it's one of those things where it makes sense to me, but there's not a whole lot of proof one way or the other. As I understand it, a single school district in Minnesota had a policy, has a policy of strict neutrality about sexual orientation. That is you don't talk about it. That's their neutral policy. And there have been a higher percentage of suicides in that district than any other district in Minnesota of gay and lesbian kids. And so people were starting to notice. And really, all that was going on was an absence of information, theoretically. I mean, we don't know that they were ordered to say bad things or they were simply ordered not to say anything. So the invisibility, the theory goes, of information in this place makes you feel isolated as you've said or alone or lonely and other students don't know as well. Do you think that is possible to be true? - If I can jump in, absolutely. But I think, absolutely. I think schools do have that obligation to create safe places for their students. I think that there is... If the school through their silence allows or testily encourages kind of bias that they have some culpability in that and the school is representative of a community. And I think that... I'm going to assume I don't know the community, but there has to be this level of agreement in the community among family members and people that LGBT individual should not be respected, that they should not be honored. And the school then deferred to a bias. Rather than being leaders, they chose... I'm guessing 'cause I'm not well informed so I don't wanna say too much. - Well, they probably thought that they had taken a step forward in saying "just don't bring it up at all"- - [Judy] Has to be neutral. - Because it had always been brought up in a negative way. Remember in California, we've got two different laws. One that says you must be positive about these folks and inclusive, and one that says you can't be negative about these folks. - [Judy] Exactly. - So they're kinda two different things. And I don't know. Maybe neutrality is just as bad as negativism. - Well, I wonder if it really was neutrality 'cause even here in California where we have wonderful laws on the books, that's not always the reality on the ground. And so in the work that I do with students throughout Southern California, especially more conservative communities where talking about LGBT folks is considered to be taboo, we see schools that there is this kind of this culture of we're not gonna take a stand on talking about LGBT folks. And what that often turns into practice is a silencing where you might have a person who is open-minded, who has LGBT family members themselves are LGBT, and they reach out to the students that they see in crisis. They try to create that safe space because they recognize that that's their responsibility as an educator. But then this policy might turn into silencing. It's like, "Well, no, no, no. Now you're not being neutral. Now you're endorsing. Now you're promoting. Now you're actually breaking this kind of stalemate that we've created." And so I can see how that would actually probably even silence further the few allies that some of these students might have in their schools which could make them feel even more isolated just a lot of LGBT students already feel. - Well, and what about behavior? Behavior is considered an aspect of speech, is it not? And therefore, what is silencing? How far does that go? I mean, Benji, you identify as a guy. You live your life as a guy, but what if your... Even just your dress alone was considered a statement, is it not? It is considered a statement, isn't it? - Yes. - And so that would... You could be silenced by being told you can't wear that. I mean, that's... I guess, the aspect of silencing could go very far. You may have even experienced that as you went through school. - Yeah, there were some few things that a lot of schools just aren't aware of. Fortunately, in California we do have these great laws that protect students on the basis of their sexual orientation and gender identity and expression. So I was able to take these things that were happening where... Let's say for example, the dress code was gender segregated. Boys must wear this. Girls must wear this. And I told them, "You know what? Hey, this is actually against the law. Here it is. And I'll work with you to change it." And now it's just completely like, "Oh, students cannot wear this or something." And I just did things like that. And not only just to help me because of the stuff that I was going through as an openly transgender student, but to help other students. And I heard a lot of other students... For example, I took down the battle of the sexes. It was this huge event and stuff for a variety of reasons. And students, teachers, people backing me up who weren't even LGBT identified because they're like, "You know what? This does affect a lot of people and this is wrong." - Well, one of the things we did when I first got into the legislature is amend... I carried a bill to amend the hate crime statute. The definition of gender, couldn't quite get sexual orientation in right away, But the definition of gender, we expanded it to include if you committed a crime against somebody because you didn't think they looked right for their gender or they didn't sound right or act right for their gender, that was a hate crime based on gender. And it sort of... You know, sometimes when you can't get the whole inch a lot, you just sort of try to get a little piece of it. And it did open up some space for especially the transgender community because that was not sexual orientation. That was really gender identity. Yet another phrase that it took a while to get in. But the thing I wanted to ask you to discuss with me for a minute is the question of humanity. We had a lot of talk about how marriage itself was withheld from various communities as a way of diminishing them being seen as full human beings. I think history is kind of the same thing. So I guess if I were a teacher, I'd say discuss. I mean, tell me what you think about that. - I mean, there's so many... I think if you study a lot of history, movements who have fought for justice or for freedom, one of the first things they'll do is they'll create some kind of history of their society, of their movements, just because that's so critical for folks being able to see themselves as being fully human, as being part of a community, or a group that's being marginalized and targeted so it makes complete sense why history is so important to us, right? It's what roots us into this world. It's what lets us know who came before us, what are we coming into, growing into, where our place in the world is as I think Benji said earlier. So history is absolutely vital for having a sense of continuity of being part of the human family. So, I lost my train of thought. - That was your train of thought. - [Daniel] That was my train of thought. Thank you. - We're just talking about humanity and actually full humanity. - The way I look at educations, I really do believe that education has two languages. There's a legal language, right? Which says what we must do. And then there's the heart language and that's the humanity language. And that's just, what is the right thing to do? And as a teacher, the right thing for me to do is to have my students know that when they walk into my classroom, they're going to get an excellent education as somebody who cares about them. And I am so honored by what young people are doing to lead. And I'm also apologizing because I think that as a teacher, as adults, it's our jobs to make our campuses safe for students. It's not the student's job to make the campus safe for us. - But Judy, you and I grew up with what you called a whitewashed curriculum. - [Judy] Yes. - What changed for you? I mean, people go in different directions after they get out of school emotionally, intellectually, politically. What happened to you that made you appreciate what was missing? - Oh my goodness. I was- - I mean, you ended up in the job that's right in the middle of all of this. - Yes. And really when one looks- My brother and I grew up in the Norman Rockwell picture, so this is the last place that one would expect me to be. I had... And the thing... I think that... I went to Catholic girls school and I remember one of the sisters. She taught us to question and I was one who, "Why? But why, why, why?" And she encouraged that and she taught us to question. And so I do think I'm a questioner because of that because she instilled on us, among all the girls in the class, that we should always look at what was presented and also what was missing, what was left out, what's invisible, and empowered us in a way to find our voices. - I remember you said Daniel too when we were talking about finding... Going specifically to the library or wherever to find some information. What made you do that and what difference did it make? - It's funny you ask that. I was actually going to the library because I had started a Gay-Straight Alliance club in my school. So I was in Benji's shoes a little longer than I'd care for. And there was this... One of the first discussion topics that came up was like, well, what about the history of LGBT folks? There was a hunger for that. And I knew some things that I had picked up from here and there and talking to other LGBT adults. But I realized that I knew very little. I went to my school library, there was nothing there. And then I realized "okay, I'm gonna find this" since I think, like Judy, I'm a questioner. And I think once I have a question, I want an answer. And even if the answer is- There is no answer, then I will try to find one anyway. And that's why I went to the library. In the public library I found this book, this history book, and I took it back to my school. I checked it out and we read through it. We didn't have PowerPoint in those days so we made posters and we put them around school. You know, that was a very exciting and empowering feeling. I remember reading about Harry Hay, founder of the Mattachine Society here in Los Angeles and being like, "Oh my God, this was in LA. You know, you're kind of my gay grandfather." You know, and really feeling like there's an activist mantle, this mantle of making a just world that I could inherit from people like Harry Hay, Bayard Rustin. And so it was just really inspiring for me and I think that's what fuels me today and that's why I'm excited to work with young people like Benji 'cause I can see this mantle with very, very deep roots. It's this fire for justice in our community continuing to renew itself every year and pass itself on. So I'm just grateful that I get to be one of the people in that chain of continuity, so. - That is an important thing. Well, Benji, let me ask you because you're in the middle of it right now. Everybody has an idea of what you should learn in order to be a good citizen when you graduate and have tools essentially to be able to earn a living, to contribute to society by which people generally mean working, et cetera. And so there's a lot of emphasis on saying, what is all this about? All this silliness about sexual orientation and gender identity. What you really need is you need math classes and you need science classes and you need business classes. How do you respond to that? - Well, I feel that a large part of the world and just being in it, it isn't all just the core classes that you have to take. A lot of it, even when you do get older and get a job, it's about dealing with people, society. You come across different things and you have to learn how to handle these- There's gonna be challenges, issues, and you need to know how to address them, to handle them, and I feel that sexual orientation, gender identity, those are a part of just human nature. I mean, gender identity is not something that a lot of people learn about, but everybody has a gender identity even if you may not know it. And I think that these are all just things that are a part of people, whether you may not identify as LGBT or not, I mean, these are things that people all have and when you grow up, you're gonna have to deal with people, all different types of people. I think that's a really important skill as well to learn for the future. - You know, there's another aspect too and you may have seen it not just in LA Unified but sort of through your work. The question that we always faced in the legislature is, should we narrow down what we want people to learn? Or should we expand it? And one of the axes along which this question went was, do you want them to be questioners? Do you want them to have critical thinking skills? Now I'm being a little biased here because I'm gonna characterize what I think is very positive. Do you want them to be able to sift through a lot of information and come to their own conclusions? Or do you want them to learn specific things that you think they need to know and then test them on it so that we know that you know them? And you know there's a big issue about these standardized tests and not only students being evaluated now, but teachers on the basis of the outcomes of these tests. You say you're a questioner. You say you're a questioner. You're clearly a pioneer in many ways. So I know who I'm talking to here, but what's the advantage one way or another? What do we want our students to come out of school? Sort of what skills do we want them to have? - I think definitely we want students to have strong academic skills. I'm a math teacher, so. - There you go. - I love my math classes. - See how that's important. So these things are not mutually exclusive. - They're not mutually exclusive. It's an "and". So we definitely want our students to be academically strong and we want them to function in pluralistic society. And most of our students are going to be in careers that have not even been invented yet. And so that's why we need to offer an education that will give them the tools to create, to grow and to grow. We cannot plan for what's in front of us 'cause 20 years from now, all of our technology will be so outdated and that generation is going to be inventing new things that we can't even imagine. So we can't be so narrow minded as to think that we know what they're going to need. That's why the tools are so critical. - And the world that we're living in now, it's so fast paced. It's so... There's so much information. I think, you know, oftentimes when talking with Benji about his activism, I'm just struck by how much of it would happen through internet, through texting. These are technologies that even for myself, I kind of came at that cusp page where they were starting to come out, but they were not really clear. What that has done just for the reality that the students live in now, and I think all of us. It's so different. And so you have to be able to look at lots of information, for sources of information. So if you're reading the media, you're gonna read a blog here. You're gonna catch a little bit of the news here. You're gonna get an update here. Someone on Facebook will post something and then you'll pull that together, and students have to know how to do that. That's the world we all live in. And so, there's no going back to a time where you learn this discrete skill here. This discrete skill, go work in a factory, assemble some things, and then go home. I mean, like Judy said, the world has changed dramatically and the future, it's just gonna be amazing and unknown for what we have to do, so. - The other thing I found is that there's a lot of waste of energy when you hate people. - [Judy] Oh, yes. It's so true. - Or when you try to work really hard to keep them out of your club, whatever your club is. It's like it takes more energy than simply living your life with the people who are kind of put in your place. - I would rather be known by who I welcome than who I reject. - Sounds like you're in the right job. - Well, I'm very fortunate. I'm so, so very, very fortunate. - So what do you do for the- I mean, I know what the title is and I can sort of parse the words, but what's your weekly work essentially with LA Unified? - My weekly work is very broad. It is to look at... Proactive or reactive, so I can do prevention or intervention or recovery for any kind of bias or bullying or harassment or inter group conflict that may happen in our schools among students, among faculty, and among family members. - [Sheila] Wow. - And there's two of us. - And there's two of you for 700,000 students. Hey, it's a start. - It's a start. Well, we used to have more, but we're very fortunate. We're very, very fortunate that there is the two of us and we have a wonderful administration. I have a... My director, my- Assistant superintendent, Earl Perkins is just... He opens up doors for us. Our school board is excellent. Did you know LA Unified has had wonderful, wonderful leaders from the top down? Monaco Garcia is our school board president. So when we have such visionaries as leaders, I can't let those people down. (Sheila laughs) And such wonderful students in our schools, I can't let them down either. - Well, there's probably only maybe three or four minutes remaining. So what I'd like to ask you each to think about and say is let's say there are principals watching, teachers watching, students watching, future teachers watching. What would you say to them about the importance of this diversity in the curriculum? Start with you, Daniel. - Great. I would say to everyone who's watching that it's essential. I mean, this conversation's about what we learn in our schools. It was really at the core of what kind of society we wanna be, not just in the future but now. And I do hope that we want to be society that is inclusive, that is accepting even when we can disagree. I think that's, if anything, kinda one of the most beautiful parts of the United States is that even in those moments of most divisive tension, where we're just really disagreeing, that we can still remember that we are in this together, that we are moving forward as a country together. And so I really hope people understand this is what this is about. That's making sure that all of us, especially LGBT Americans, are included and welcome at the table, even if sometimes you don't wanna pass us the bread, but we're there. (Sheila laughs) - How about you, Judy? - I think what I would want to say is I would wanna talk to the parents. - Oh, that's the group that I didn't even mention. Good for you. - I would want every parent to know that they are welcome in my classroom, that their children are welcome in my classroom, and that I, as an educator, will do everything that I can to make this a growing experience for them. - But what about parents who are worried about what their children learn? Who think it's damaging to them to be exposed to information about the LGBT community? - I think we should talk because when we talk and they find out what students learn, every single parent I've ever had who's complained, who's been worried, they call me and we talk about it and by the end of the phone call, they're like, "I'm okay with it." So I think that hopefully I can allay some of their fears. It's not about promoting anything. It's not about any gender, about any agenda. It's we don't... There's a tendency I think sometimes that people want to sexualize homosexuality, but we romanticize heterosexuality. So it's... You know, so I want to lay all of those fears to rest and say, "We're just talking about people. I wanna talk to you about your brothers and sisters, your neighbors, your preachers." This we're talking about people who right now, today, we rub elbows with, who are in your own circle. - How about you Benji? What would you say? And here's the opportunity. What would you say to all these folks who are thinking about education now from various aspects? - I would say that I feel like it is important to always remember that when LGBT people and issues and things like that are represented in curriculum, that students have a chance to see that. Like even LGBT students, particularly, they can see that, "Oh, there I am." And I think that really promotes just a better learning environment as a whole. They can pay attention more. They know that like, "Oh yeah, I'm in there too." Like, "I'll get to that part when I'm there and they'll talk about me." I think it really just... It can engage students more in what they're learning about and it can really just promote a happier, more inclusive just school environment in general which will really... It will help create great leaders for the future. - Judy also said that she didn't want the LGBT part of the book to just be page 110 to 115. Do you agree with that? - Yes, I do agree. I feel like there are a lot of LGBT leaders throughout history that they haven't been talked about or there have been covered up because they're LGBT. I think it's great to highlight those people and start bringing them out. - So you all seem to be very optimistic about this. - Yes. Well, look who's in this room? And we have you who've certainly been our hero. I wanna give a shout out to Gay-Straight Alliance Network because just there's wonderful leaders. You know, right here, Benji. We're gonna give you the baton. - It's true. Gay-Straight Alliance Network got part of its impetus from coming to the very first queer youth lobby day where the young people decided "no, we're gonna use the word queer because we're here, we're queer, get used to it." And it sort of grew from there and it's quite an amazing, amazing organization. Well, thank you all so much for- - [Judy] Thank you. - Being here today for really for speaking out for this law. To California state senator, Mark Leno, who picked up the baton and did a great, great job with it. But you know, if Mark were here, he would tell you he can't do it really without the kind of work that's gone into it. You are really part of the history, not only of that bill but of this movement. So, thank you all three very much for being here. Thank you for being here, too. This makes you a part of the history, too. And to read about it and be part of it, to work to incorporate it, not just ours but everyone who needs to be seen and understood so that we can all as Americans get used to it. (instrumental music)