Get Used to It: Ep. 171, "Growing Up Gay in Foster Care"

(typewriter clacking) (bright music) - Hi, welcome to Get Used To It. I'm Sheila Kuehl and as always, I will be your conductor through this hour of discussion and talk. And today we have a fascinating topic and one that has been in the news, but not really in people's attention, I think a lot. And that's the issue of foster youth and especially LGBTQ foster youth. Today I'm very, very pleased to have as my guests, two former foster youth and a woman who works with these young people, really talking about the issue, working with foster youth in the state of California. But I'm sure if you're watching from another state, you might have exactly the same kind of program. So I'd like you to help me welcome my guest, this is Torhon Barnes and he is a former foster youth, who's now getting his master's at the university of Southern California, which is okay. I'm a Bruin, but it's all right. (all chuckle) I'm happy to have you do that. (Maggie chuckles) And also Torhon has been an advocate on the issue of foster kids, especially for the California Youth Connection, which I saw in Sacramento testifying in front of us on issues. But of course the work is broader than that. So welcome Torhon. - Thank you. We're very glad you're here. My second guest is Maggie Tuazon and Maggie is also a former - You sounded very French. - Did it good huh? (Jacque chuckling) Maggie's also a former foster youth aged out, as we say, and is currently studying at the University of Alaska in Anchorage. Also has done some advocacy on behalf of foster youth. And I think is participating in a program as a volunteer in Alaska called, Facing Foster Care in Alaska. So welcome. Thank you so much Maggie for doing this. - Thank you. - And our third guest today is Jacque Lindeman and Jacque's the Director of Development for California Youth Connection. And we'll hear a good deal I hope about that organization and about your own work, Jacque. So, welcome. - Thank you. - Thank you all for being here. Torhon, let's start with you. Tell us a little bit about your story in the foster care system or in foster care, kind of what, what, what happened to you as a kid? - Well, actually entered foster care when I was eight and it was prompted by, you know, a little bit of abuse from my mom and my mom and dad not being able to get along. And so I was born in Sacramento and we moved here when I was seven to kind of get away from the abuse, me and my mother and my younger sister. And she was a newborn at the time. And so my dad had been, went to prison. We moved to Sac, to LA from Sacramento. And within a year, my mom became more abusive and just wasn't able to deal with, you know, raising us alone and without support. So we entered care and we ended up living with my maternal great-uncle and his wife and family. And they had a family of their own, they had eight children amongst themselves, and then they added me and my younger sister so. - Wow. - Yeah, it was more than the Brady Bunch, (Sheila chuckles) but (clears throat), we moved with them and, I was basically raised with my aunt and uncle up until I was a freshman in high school. And I, you know, had longed for a connection with my biological family, my siblings that I wasn't raised with, I really wanted to get to know them. So I ended up moving back to Sacramento with my maternal grandmother and my mother was move, moved to Texas and then rehab at the time. And so I got reconnected with my family. My biological father was out of prison and had, you know, more children and just raised his own family all those years. So sophomore and junior year of high school, I lived in Sacramento, got to know my family there and really kind of, it confirmed the reason why I entered foster care, still was the family was unstable. Not really didn't feel like a, a connection really with anyone. So I ended up moving back to LA and lived with my aunt and uncle again until I was like 19 . Until, and then when I emancipated, I lived with them, had to pay rent to live there and was living there basically until, it was a point where I couldn't pay rent. It was either pay for my car to be repaired, which got me to college and to work or to pay rent. And I chose to pay to take care of myself and I ended up opting to leave. So, - So in, did you have to go through the court to be like sent to your relatives? Or was it more of a private kind of, hear you take him for, that kind of thing? - Initially it was amongst the family. It was actually an aunt first that took me in, but then within a couple months, my uncle found out that we can get support from the state. And so then it was through the courts and it took a couple of months for that. - So what was that like for you? (Torhon sighs) - Initially I, you know, I didn't understand it because me and my mom, when we moved from Sac, from Sacramento, we lived with the uncle. So it was just living in his house, was still the same but then when my mom had to leave and you know, I didn't see her for days, I was wondering like, why, where's my mom, you know? And I understood that, you know, she would yell at me and hit me sometimes. And I didn't like it, but I didn't want her to go away. And then when I went to court, it was just a bunch of strangers. So I was, you know, scared, I didn't know what was going on. And they told me my mom was gonna go to get help. And I wouldn't see her. And that kind of freaked me out as a kid, but they said I would have visitation with her, you know, periodically. So that helped but initially I just, I wasn't understanding it. And my parents and my family wasn't explaining anything to me. It was more of all the social services and all the people that worked there were explaining it to me, but I felt like my family should have done that. - Right, well, and in addition, I mean, I, I think you identify as gay now. - [Torhon] Mmh. - But as a kid, did you have a sense that, I mean, that would add sort of a, yet another dimension really to what you were going through, right? - Yeah, definitely. I knew I was gay as a kid and my uncle in fact was a pastor, Assistant Pastor of a church. So, not only was it the pressure for me to be a perfect child, but it's like the worst sin for you (chuckles), as a, a boy of a pastor's son to be gay. And so I definitely knew that I could not ever, you know, come out. And that was part of the reason why I came out so late, cause I didn't come out until I was 25. And all my family actually would say, you know, I was, had feminine tendencies and things like that when I was growing up and always felt like I, you know, had these traits that were, they can consider gay. And, but at the same time they would say it's my decision and my choice to be gay. So I would always come back with the response of if I was gay and you thought I had these tendencies when I was a kid, is that, was that taught to me? Or did I have a choice when I didn't know what sexual, sexuality was as a kid? And they don't have a response for that. So, - So did you ever talk to your family about it? - Yeah. - But not or not until after you were? - Yeah, not until 25. - Out of their hands. - Yeah. (Torhon and Sheila chuckle) Yeah and it was like actually a year before my, my foster dad died too. Cause I, I wanted to have a conversation with him about it, but he actually died when he was on a, a mission trip to Africa. So I didn't, have a chance to talk to him about it and come out to him, but to his wife and all my siblings, I came out to them and everyone, you know, just thought it was my choice and they were accepting whatever decision I made. And to this day they're very supportive. It's just been a process for them to see, you know, who I am because they were scared that I would change to be a different person. - Sure. And have you known other gay or lesbian kids that are in the system? - Oh definitely. Yeah, so I currently work at Orangewood Children's Foundation in Orange County and I work with youth that are from varying backgrounds and we have an increasing number of youth that are coming out to us, you know, on an, - Coming out to you as a, - Daily basis. - As a case worker. - Yeah. And as a peer mentor. - Oh! - And I've just seen a progression of youth having a safe space to come to. So they come to me and other staff to talk about, you know, their being gay or lesbian, or having people that they know that are gay lesbian. - And are these kids in foster care? - They're both in foster care and some are emancipated. Most of them are emancipated though. - So, I imagine that people watching the show, know very little about being in foster care. - [Torhon] Okay. You know, we see a little bit about it on, you know, television shows and whatever. And it seems like there's a, a lot of moving around, a lot of different families that people live with. It must be difficult anyway but I, I, I think we imagine too that it would be even more difficult because you'd have to hide your secret from everybody. And even if you came out to somebody, you went somewhere else, you'd be back in the closet again. Do you find that with the kids? - Yeah. And even with my own experience, I remember part of the process of me not wanting to come out to my family is because, you know, if my family didn't accept it and then society doesn't accept, accept it, then who am I gonna be safe with? If I tell them this, when I know that this is a issue that most people don't, you know, accept or acknowledge. And with the youth that I talk to, usually they say the same things. It's like they come to our center to talk to us about it. Or they say it to, you know, certain people in confidence because they know that it's safe with them. - [Sheila Kuehl] Right. - And that can help them in their process of, you know, coming out. - This issue of safety, Maggie, must be a big one for, I mean, all kids. It's a big issue for all kids. Gotta have a safe place. School's not safe, home's not safe or whatever, but I saw you nodding when Torhon was, was talking. Tell, tell us a little bit about yourself and your story or, or anything you wanna start with. (Maggie clears throat) - Well, I, I entered the foster care system kind of late. I was 15 when I entered the foster care system. And at that time I wasn't, I didn't know I could be a lesbian. I didn't know that. It wasn't a possibility to me because if I, I mean, me and my family never talked about what it means to be a lesbian, we or anything. But when I entered foster care, the first was a foster home and I couldn't really get used to the family structure. And so I went back with my mother actually. And then my child welfare worker was just like, well, if you're not used to a family structure, why not try out a group home? And so I entered a group home and when I got there, I saw another girl with her head shaved. Well, not another girl, because at that time my hair was still long in a ponytail, like a tomboy. And I saw her and she had her head shaved like a boy. And I was like, wow, that is so brave. Like how do you, how does one do that? Have the courage to just be who they are? And so I, I came out as, as, as bisexual first cause that was safe for me. And then one night, I had cut my hair probably a little too short. And so I couldn't ponytail it no more, some things were just like falling out. And so I just, one night I was just like, you know what, just cut it off. And I just cut it off. And so it's like 2:00 AM and I'm in a group home and I got the clippers, I got the scissors, you know, and I'm in my bathroom, (Maggie making a snipping sound) just cutting my hair (chuckles). We don't have no Clippers. And so there's just clumps, right? And it's like three o'clock in the morning by this time four o'clock in the morning or something. And I'm like, I can't fix this anymore, you know? So I'm just gonna go to sleep with it. And I wake up the next morning and I'm knocking on the staff door, you know, 7:00 AM. And I'm like, "I need my hair allowance." (Sheila Kuehl laughing) And she says, "But you already had your hair, hair allowance." And I'm like, "Yeah, but this is an emergency." And she was like, yeah, why is your beating on? What'd you do? I'm like, okay, I cut my hair. She's like, oh yeah, you need a haircut (chuckles). And so, I mean, I, I went to go get my haircut and I can remember, after I got my haircut, just like how it is now. I remember walking by all the cars, walking home, back to the group home and I'm like, "Wow! Look at me, look at me, this is my real self," you know, in every car window, you know? And I got back to the group home and just talked about it. Like, so what does this mean? Well, it means I like girls, (chuckles) you know? - What was the response? How many kids in the group home? - There were six, including me. - So it's pretty intimate, like a family really. I mean, I don't mean - Oh yeah! We do, yeah. (Maggie and Sheila chuckling) - You are a family but I mean, you know, it's - [Maggie Tuazon] Well, yeah, it is, yeah - Not a huge place, so. - Definitely it, it was really supportive actually. It wasn't like judging you, like, why did you do this? Like, oh my God! People are gonna judge, you know? It was really just like processing it with me, you know? Letting me know that I was fine. You know, just wanting to know if I was fine and if I was in crisis or something, I'm like, no, I'm not in crisis. I just came out (chuckles). This is how I'm coming out (chuckles), you know? - So it sounds like, I wouldn't ever use the word easy about coming out, but it sounds like it was a safe environment. - It, it did feel safe to me because other youth around me were expressing themselves. I had a right to be who I was and be supported. And I knew that whoever I was, those group home staff had to accept me. And that wasn't so with my family, you know, if I came out to my family and would've said this to them, if they didn't accept it, well, then I had no one, you know, but in the system I felt safe. - It's interesting because it's not the impression that people would have. I mean, the idea of a group home, I, I, I don't know that people think of it as a safe environment. - [Maggie Tuazon] Yeah. - And maybe some of them are? Have you seen others? - Oh yeah. I, I'm, I, you know, I stayed at that one particular group home for like two years and I couldn't really appreciate how good I had it until I saw what other group homes were going through. And so I, I had a need to actually, you know, experience another group home. So I was in respite care. So I went to a second foster home. And I, I moved around to different group homes. I went to Glass House in Oakland and, and that worked out for a while and I moved out to different, just different group homes. I, I moved around like six times in six months or something crazy like that. - Were you out at all the places? - Yes. Yes. But the respite care, I went there before I even cut off my hair. - Do you wanna say what that is? - Respite care. It's kind of like babysitting, foster care babysit, you know? Like if your group home is having too much trouble with you or they need some time away from you or something, they'll send you to respite care. It's like babysitting. - So it's respite for them? - Right. Yeah. Yes. (Maggie Tuazon and Sheila Kuehl laughing) Not for me. - Right. - Yeah. And I came, I, I didn't cut my hair during this respite thing, but then I came back cause I thought that was an unconditional, you know, relationship with this foster parent. But when I cut my hair off and tried to see if she would accept it, she didn't. And I lost that relationship. I, I suppose, but I wasn't that close so, - And yet to have your own real identity, sounds to me like the thread that ran through all of this. I mean, I hear this from a lot of LGBTQ people, not just young people, that eventually simply to be able to, admit who you are and show who you are, that it's more important really than almost anything. - [Maggie Tuazon] Yes. - But for foster youth experience, the, what I've heard in many situations is what both of you have expressed so far, which is that the issue of, you know, who will, who will care for me cause not that we can take our parents for granted anyway, because there's always a lot of us get kicked out when we come out. I didn't, I was lucky, but, but it, it's like an added thing that would not only keep you in the closet, but also hope that you would be accepted as who you are. Do you, have you also worked with other gay lesbian foster youth? - Yes. Particularly with California Youth Connection, who is in collaboration with the Youth Training Project and the Youth Training Project is a group of current and former foster youth. And what the Youth Training Project does is, teach foster youth how to be curriculum developers and how to be facilitators of child welfare trainings. And, and so with them, I have I built with, you know, a bunch of my colleagues in curriculum, on LGBTQ foster youth issues. To help child welfare professionals better understand the LGBTQ population and how to best serve them. And we were all gay, lesbian, you know. We, we, we fit the LGBTQ acronym. And so I worked with them, but, but wherever I go, California Youth Connection, there's gay youth, in Alaska, same thing, you know. We're everywhere (chuckles). Can't get rid us. (Maggie and Sheila chuckling) - We are everywhere. There's no question. - So yeah. I definitely work. - I, I, I imagine people watching the show are wondering, boy, that sounds great. How would I get such a curriculum? Is that something that was worked through with California Youth Connection or a different organization? - How, how would you get that curriculum? - Yeah. I mean somebody saying, well maybe Jacque, should I ask either one, but Jacque, I saw you start to answer the question. - I'll let Maggie answer. - Go ahead no, go ahead. Go ahead. - That's all right, Jacque, it's your turn anyway. (All chuckling) So if maybe to answer that and then I'll, to hear your story as well. But first, I'm just thinking people are listening to Maggie and saying, that sounds like a wonderful thing to have, you know, in my state, in my city or whatever. How, how would they access such your curriculum? - So the Youth Training Project in collaboration with CYC, we were two organizations, but we're kind of sister, brother organizations. If they're interested in getting the training, they can actually contact the youth, try, Youth Training Project, which is the website's just youthtrainingproject.org and actually request a training. CYC, California Youth Connection also does trainings, but YTP, we're all about acronyms. (Sheila Kuehl laughing) Sorry. - I think we'll do a crawl (Lindeman laughing) under the credits at the end of the show. So get your paper and pencil out so that you can write down, you know. - So Youth Training Project we call YTP. YTP does, I would say more intensive, longer trainings. CYC, a lot of times will be requested to do a workshop at a conference or something of that sort, which CYC will usually do smaller training. So I think the great thing is that there are a lot of trainings available with curriculum written by youth, written by what CYC and YTP considered the experts of the foster care system, which are the youth that lived it, breath, it, everything of that sort. - So tell us a little bit about your background. I mean, it's, there's not a million people in the world, doing the kind of work you're doing, or maybe there are, I don't know, but how, what called to you about this work? How did you get into it? - So in college I was a neuroscience major and I thought, that's what I want to do. - Neuroscience, how the brain works, - Mmh - Chemistry that kind of stuff. - Kind of. Thought I was gonna be a doctor. And during the summertime, I would work at camps that were for mothers and their children. The mothers came from either domestic violence shelters, drug, and alcohol rehab or prison. And one day I woke up and said, I could do this the rest of my life. So with that in college, you know, I was looking for a job and I started working at a youth runaway shelter and I realized that's the population I really enjoy. That's the age group I really love. I love that kind of 14 to early 20s. - You must be one of three people in the Universe that, (Jacque Lindeman laughing) loves anyone the age of 14. - I loved it. - You know (chuckling). - I loved it. And then through them, we started actually a project called the Youth Empowerment Project. At that time, then I graduated college and I got a job at Orangewood Children's Foundation where, that's where I actually met Torhon. And I ran their Independent Living Program in which it is a state program for foster youth from 16 to 21. And then I just completely fell in love with the youth. And as I learned more about the foster care system, it just, it pulled on my heart. And I also realized these young people are amazing. And I didn't know if a lot of people knew that. And so what was great was CYC, California Youth Connection, trying not to use too many acronyms, is a statewide organization and Orangewood Children's Foundation house the Orange County chapter of CYC. So that is where I got involved. And I thought it was the most amazing organization because the raw power of the young people is what drives the organization. And it wasn't the adults, it wasn't the check writers, it wasn't the politicians, it was the young people. And then for that, I just, I fell in love. And that was in 2000 and I'm still involved now. - And no regrets, eh? - No regrets. So what kinds of things do, do, does the organization do when you say in, in terms of what are the real, what are the verbs that you would use for what the young people in the organization do? Cause you've used the word training. - So trainings, advocacy. - Advocacy to whom. - Advocacy to anybody who will listen. (Jacque and Sheila laughing) - But I mean, they're not walking along the street and saying, excuse me. - Some do actually, (Sheila Kuehl laughing) we've actually had some youth that will pull anybody, especially if they're fired up. - [Sheila Kuehl] Yeah. - But a lot of times to policy makers, legislators, caretakers, anybody who may be working with foster youth and even the general public, the community. CYC strives to really change the foster care system. And it can be done on, what we believe on three different levels, whether that's policy, you know, changing laws, changing the way things are done in the written, in the books, kind of deal. Practice, a group home staff can and the way they talk to a youth, a social worker and the way they communicate and really interact with a young person and then attitude. A lot of people have their own personal stereotypes and prejudice. And just everything like that. And CYC tries, strives to try to change people's attitudes about foster youth. - Well, we changed the law. I remember a couple years ago in California about the training of foster parents. And it, and it, it was, it's like a small step so that, because we had, we, we had had some information and testimony that there were some families that said, you know, I don't want one of those, in terms of gay and lesbian youth. So we didn't want that to be the case, but here you are all on the kind of, you know, on the ground. What, what is your experience in terms of seeing how gay and lesbian youth are treated, have been treated as they come through your program? - You know, I definitely feel like it's, there's a wide spectrum. The past couple years there has been a, a push for educating foster parents or group home staff or caregivers in working with LGBTQ youth. And then in the passage of several laws and, and to support young people, not to be judged or discriminated in regards to their sexual orientation or religion or anything of that sort, there has been a huge, but I also believe that it's, it's a spectrum in which we've moved a little bit this way, and there's still so much more to go. And it also depends on where the youth is placed, the resources available, the community that is available. There's no cookie cutter story. It's not like you can put, you know, John Smith in one place. And then by the time he gets out, because all these things were in place, cause that's not how it works. But I do believe there has been great strides, but I believe that there's so much more to go. - What would you, if I said to you, what, where's the next piece to go or what would be helpful from the point of view before we start our sort of round discussion, just from your point of view? What would help? - Oh, that's a loaded question (chuckles). - You think it is? - Yes definitely - Not really. - That's to say. - Not meant to be. (Jacque laughing) - I feel like that's, there's so much that can be done. Like, like again, it's from policy to practice to attitude. I, I meant personally I believe, and attitude is a huge thing and, but I believe people's attitudes can change through education. - So do, well let me ask you, do foster, let's start with foster families. Are they so far as you've experienced it and through the young people that you've worked with, do you find any difference in preparation of foster families? Or anything that you know, that I don't even know what they, if people know what they have to do, let's say if you want to be a foster parent, do you, do you go through something. - Yeah. Yeah, there's definitely foster parent trainings through the county. Each county, you know, has their different way of training. - So it's a county thing, like what they'll have to do. - Definitely. And it's a state mandate for how many hours foster parents are trained each year, but again, each county can train on different things. I know in my experience with Orange County, I've been involved with the training panel and they have former foster youth come in and give their experience. And that's part of their training, the foster parents on the different experiences of different youth. And they also talk about LGBT issues so that the parents are aware of it. And if you know, they're not prepared or accepting of it, they can process that with them, you know, and see if it's a fit for them to be a foster parent. - And how does a kid get placed with foster parents? Do you, do they, I mean (chuckling), I don't even know that people would know the process. Do they, is it, do they interview you? Do you get to meet them? And then people decide, or you? - No, I never, it, I never interviewed my foster parents, see if I wanted to go there. It was just like, oh, we're taking you to this foster home. - So they tell you where to go. - Well, they take you, they drive, they make you wait at the assessment center until they find you a placement. And then a county worker comes in her car and takes you to the placement. You don't really have a say in that. You don't really get to interview your foster parent. At least in my experience. I never had that, but. - I, it may seem like a dumb question, but I often, my role is to ask the questions that I think people watching the show are going, like, how does that work? - I think they're getting better though. I think they're getting better though, because I think as time went on, you know, when I was moving from group home to group home, I had an opportunity to check out these group homes, like the Glass House. I, I had an opportunity to check it out and say, hey, this is a really nice house, you know. Like, yeah, this is cool, you know. And I hear it a lot in advocacy. Yes, youth should be able to interview their foster parents. So I think it has been making progress. - Or should have some input into like what they should look for in their foster parents. - Right. - And the other thing with foster parents, the selection process is they have to go through a background check and go through a home inspection and get reference checks. What am I missing? So it's kind of like a six month long process and I'm taking it for Orange County specifically, and each county does it differently, but that is kind of the process for them to kind of weed out the people that they don't feel like would be a good fit. And to see if they're appropriate to be a foster parent. - So, you have a, a social worker that works with each youth theoretically, or really? - Yes, theoretically - with a lot of caseloads. (Jacque and Torhon chuckle) - Yeah. - [Sheila Kuehl] They have big caseloads. - Yeah. So, are foster parents prepared like, well, this, this child is a lesbian, are you okay with that? I mean, how does the social worker handle, the sexual orientation stuff? Do you know? - I, I have no idea. - See, I wasn't out when I was a, you know, a, a dependent, so, I don't know how it would've been with me, but I know even with any special need, I, I think they have mental disabilities, physical disabilities. They just talk about it in general beforehand. And if it directly relates to the youth, then that's kind of when they process it with that direct foster parent that they would be placed with. - So your impression at least is that foster families are told, this child is, you know, is a, is a gay young man. - [Torhon] If they're out. - If they're out. Well, of course that's the case with your, one's own children (chuckling). - [Torhon] Yeah. - It's like, I don't know, you know. - But then sometimes I would have to say, there are a lot of situations too, in which there's an emergency placement. They have to place somebody, a social worker wants to go kind of go home at the end of the day, you know? And you know, this youth is just sitting at the assessment center, saying I have no, all their belongings in a black trash bag. And like, I don't know where I'm supposed to go. They'll and I've actually heard it from foster parents. And I've heard it from youth in which we got placed there, didn't know any information. And the youth is, you know, where am I going? Who's this person, what bed am I in? And then the foster parent is like, you told me it'd be one day, one night, you just needed this youth here. And they've been here six months now. So there's, I think, you know, I think there, is definitely progress towards definitely having youth voice and input and things of that sort. But there are still a lot of cases in which young people are just kind of thrown into something and the situation isn't explained, you know, and, and in some foster parents, they're not given the information. And then as a result, they may kind of not shun the young person, but kind of be removed. And it's just not a good situation because of both. - [Torhon] Yeah, and I totally agree. - Yeah. - Wonder what the alternatives are. I mean, I, I, I'm interested in the number of homes that exist. Group homes that you have lived in. Many of them, I'm interested in this assessment center. This is something I don't think people really know, but I mean, I'm imagining a situation, let's say where the cops come to my house and they arrest my mother. It's just sudden, they're not giving us any warning. I'm suddenly needed to be put somewhere, right? They take me, is that where I'll go? To an assessment center? - It depends on the county, but a lot of counties will have, they'll call it different names, but assessment centers are usually kind of the general kind of term for it or clearing houses. And a young person is dropped off there. And the, the cop usually will be like, all right, here you go. People, people here will take care of you. And then they kind of walk away. And the young person is there completely confused, depending on the age range. But I think even from a two year old to 17 year old's can be kind of confused and then they kind of take it from there. - Yeah and it's, it's usually like a county, county office building. - Yeah. - Like the social services building that you see. - In Alameda county it's, you walk into these doors and the left side, I think it's for county workers or, you know, people who are trying to find your case, doing your case stuff, trying to find place, in the right side is, yeah, just a big living space. It's like a living room and a play space for, you know, little kids. And then there's like a little kitchen area in one room and all that stuff, but you're locked in there. And you're just watching TV and doing that stuff all day until someone finds you a placement. I, I once stayed in the assessment center for like three days until they found me a placement that I wanted to be in. And I was like, no, I will not settle for anything except Bay Area youth centers, which is, you know, the placement that I was, the group home I was first at. Where I came out at and I wanted to go back there after my group home tour. - Experience tour. - Yeah, my tour. (all laughing) - My tour of the group home. - [Maggie Tuazon] Right. - Right. - So I demanded that I go back there. So I waited three days and they took me back and I was so happy. - And a lot of these centers, you know, a young person, whether whatever age, you're kind of ripped from whatever's happening. - [Maggie Tuazon] Yeah. - And going on, and then you're thrown into something that's very cold. A lot of these places are very cold. It's not, you know, no, one's there to really sit and explain. And it's just, it's, it's mind boggling for me, working in the field and, and talking to young people and hearing their experiences from, you know, young people being at work and cops coming to their work and saying, you need to pack up your stuff. You need to go home now, or we're taking you right now, not explaining. And why is my sibling in the cop car right now? And, and all of that. And it, it, it hurts my heart to know that young people and, and children are pulled that way. Nothing explained. And then almost in some of the places I've been to, it's almost institutional, it feels like juvenile hall. And here we are is trying to say, we're protecting these young children and we're gonna give you a better home. We're gonna do all of this. And we actually do, I feel a terrible job in a welcoming, having them feel safe and then as we place many youth in foster care of being a good family. As a community we're, I feel like we fail them in raising children. - I mean, even talking about Youth Training Project, I'm also a trainer with Youth Training Project. And we, I feel like we did a good job of bringing that training and the, the youth voice to child welfare workers for many years. And when you talk about what can we do to change things, it's like, we need to have Youth Training Project in every county, you know, to train child welfare workers and, and give the youth voice and give the input on how you feel like they should be trained. Cause they come up with the best practices. You know, they come up with what they feel like works with youth. And you know, I definitely think that could be implemented within each county. You know, just as a part of the training coming from the front end, when you're becoming a foster parent. And I, after the fact, I think we're doing a lot of the preventative work and the reactive work as youth trainers. - Right, right. - And we should do some of that, you know, on the front end. So that foster parents are more prepared and you know, they just have a better understanding of the youth that they'll be dealing with as a foster parent or adoptive parent or kinship provider. - And that's why I think YT, Youth Training Projects, sorry acronyms, and California Youth Connection are so, you know, well matched, you know, you've got, youth who used to be in care, out there writing the curriculum, training caretakers, people working with young people, everything of that sort. And then you have CYC, that's empowering the young people to stand up and to find strength in their voice and to find, strengthen their experiences and use that to feel change for, you know, maybe not only them, but definitely for the generations after them because many of these youth will know that you can change a policy this year, it's really not gonna happen, you're really not gonna see it till around five to 10 years after. And so it's a. - That would make it even more important for LGBT youth to participate. Cause I mean, one of the things that I was the first out gay or lesbian person ever in the legislature, and it was kind of like that seat at the table brings a voice. It's not the only thing you're about because it's not the only thing about you, but it was a whole new perspective. And I'm assuming that in the work that you're doing, that that, additional perspective is one that's important in the whole panoply of training, et cetera. Are there other, are there issues that are different really for LGBT kids in foster care? - I don't know, I mean, we kind of didn't say it, but talked about just the safety piece, because if you can't, if you don't feel safe with your family and then you go to a foster home where you don't feel safe and you don't feel safe in society with, you know, having a stigma against you being gay, then you know, youth really have to find a place to feel safe and they have to find safe havens in CYC or YTP or other community agencies like the centers that, you know, the gay, lesbian centers and around the counties. I'm actually volunteering in the one in Long Beach and that's where you can come. It's like a social group. They can come and just drop in the center, hang out. And, but they also have the opportunity to process, you know, they're coming out or not coming out because of whatever barriers they have. But I think those types of places are good for you to feel safe and to feel like they can show their true identity. - And do you have to come out as a foster youth? I mean, that concept (Torhon sighs) would sort of be the same. You'd be, you'd go to the center to work. You'd go to, you know, University of Alaska, et cetera. People don't look at you and think, oh, here's a, you know, a kid that's been in the system. I, I, I don't know that there's a stigma, but that's because I've not experienced it. What do you think Maggie? (Maggie clears throat) - Well, I always come out as a former foster youth because it's, it's so much a part of my identity. Just like being a lesbian. And so I, I always come out as foster youth and lesbian because honestly the, the LGBTQ community and the foster youth community, both are my family, you know, I can depend on them, you know, like I am in solidarity with them, you know. We are fighting for the same thing. We are fighting to be seen as human, you know? And so I always come out as both because I want to relieve the stigma. And the only way that we can do that is to come out like the sign behind you. - [Sheila Kuehl] Right. (Jacque and Sheila chuckle) - Right. It's been instructive. And it wasn't, I mean, it's interesting, there's been discrimination on so many bases, but a lot of people don't have the opportunity to hide under some discrimination. And yet with sexual orientation, you sort of, you know, you have to declare who you are and it's really the same with familial status or, or whatever. What's the response when you tell people, you know, your new friendship networks or whatever, I've been in the foster care system. - I, I don't know. I don't like (chuckles), it's kind of interesting. like what Maggie is saying is it's kind of my family so, those connections that I have, most of the people know already that, you know, I'm from a foster youth. And if I, they don't know, I don't think they have issue with it. I haven't experienced anyone having an issue with it. And then also with me coming out as being gay, I haven't, really had much flack from, you know, friends or strangers. Just been more like family, just trying to understand, you know, why I'm this way. But for the most part of the people I have come in contact with that I have relationships with. They, you know, are people that are accepting and open-minded, so haven't really had a lot of issues with that. - It's harder honestly, to come out as a foster youth in some ways, because it's like, oh! is that why you're so challenging? Or, you know, (all laughing) is that why, you have challenging behavior? You know? So (chuckles) I agree. (all laughing) It's true. So, and even when I say, oh, I'm a group home youth, that's like, even like, what? What is a group home? You know, but, you know, I explain to them and, and that's why I, I do this advocacy work and all this stuff because. - You wanna give back. - Yeah. - Well it's, as the audience knows from the introductions, you're both in higher education system, you're getting your masters. That's, that's pretty cool. Masters in What? - Yeah. In social work. So that's why, when Maggie was saying it's hard to come out because definitely working in social services and having my Master's now for a year, I feel like, I have to be very conscious and cognizant of, you know, my own issues. And if it's my own issue when I'm advocating for youth or for a family, and it could easily be misconstrued by my colleagues as you know, oh, he's a form of foster youth. So that's why he's advocating for that. Or he's had that experience or that's some counter transference that he's experiencing now. And so yeah, with that, I don't, I don't always, you know, advocate as much as I would want to because, you know, - Still your experience, - Making sure. - Help you connect. I mean, to understand, and it doesn't even have to be exactly the same experience. I mean, I found the same thing with people who had experienced discrimination when, you know, when our community started coming out and it was seen as an act of courage because you could, you know, it was dangerous, but there was some understanding kind of of with people who'd experienced the same thing and who weren't gay. And that was some of the first coalition connection. But so Maggie, why Alaska? (Torhon and Jacque chuckling) Seems like a long way to go for school. - It's, it's always been my dream to go to Alaska for any reason. And just, and just, get out of my comfort zone, which is the Bay Area. I, you know, that is my home and go somewhere where I've always dreamed to go, never knew how I was gonna get to Alaska, but the dream was enough. And, and I made a speech with Arnold Schwarzenegger. I made a press conference with Arnold Schwarzenegger and someone saw me and saw my biography and said, saw that it, I wanted to go to Alaska. And she was like, oh, I know of a group facing foster care in Alaska. I'll just send you up there, check it out. And I found out, oh! you can get into, the University of Alaska, Anchorage with, you know, your GED, you just gotta take a placement test. And I was just like, oh! (snaps finger) that's it. That's my way to Alaska, you know? And so I followed my dream to Alaska and I got out of my comfort zone and I wanted to be really accepted for who I am no matter where I went. And I knew that if I stayed in the bay, Bay Area, that I wouldn't know what I'm capable of, you know? And so in Alaska, I'm, I really feel like I'm, I'm growing. - What's it like? - What's it like? It's, - Yeah. (Jacque and Torhon chuckle) - It's different. (Torhon, Jacque, Sheila laughing) It's less concrete. - [Sheila Kuehl] Yeah. More nature. It's, it's, winters are beautiful if you can stand the cold. - And they last a long time. - Yes. (Sheila chuckling) I, and, and yes, in (Torhon chuckling) February's the coldest month and we get about 19 hours of darkness in December or something. - Wow! - In Anchorage, at least. (Sheila chuckles) (Sheila, Torhon, Jacque laughing) - I like it. I, I like the cold. - I loved Alaska when I visited, but is there any, do you find a difference in the youth that you've met and worked with in Alaska? - You know what I, it's actually vast youth culture. It's amazing how everywhere you go, it's kind of the same. And so we, we go through the similar things, even though laws are different and, you know, they do things different. There's a culture there and there's, you know, and that's how we bond with each other because we've been through similar things. So not much difference, not much difference. - It's interesting. You find the same thing? - Yeah. And I'm, I'm sure the same trends of issues, just not dealing with the grief and loss, you know, the detachment from the family, which Jacque explained just, you know, being taken away from your family, not really understanding. I mean, you knew, like, in my experience, I told someone at school, you know, about what was going on at home. And it was just kind of like, you know, innocent kid telling what was going on, but not intending to receive support or help or not asking for help or crying for help. But at that ended up changing my life (chuckling), you know? And so the youth, you know, sometimes do the same thing or they actually do go for help. But, you know, it's still, more comforting when, you know, when you're gonna get abused. It's so sad to say this, but like, you know, your, your dad gets drunk and he gets, you know, belligerent and you, you can, you know, count that like clockwork. But then when you go to a foster home or group home where you're like, everyone's a stranger, you don't know the environment, you don't know what's gonna happen. Everything is unknown. It's like you're kind of more comfortable with having the known, you know, abuse and unknown things going on at home. But that's something I don't think that most times, you know, us, you know, social services, you know, coming in to try to save the child and to be the parent for the child, don't really understand that piece yet. - It, when we were working with battered women in the very early days of the Battered Women's Movement, which is where I had my community organizing experience, it was really very much the same. People would say, well, why doesn't you just leave? And of course the issue was primarily safety somewhere else, which couldn't be guaranteed, economic support, which, you know, you, weren't sure you were gonna get et cetera, too much blaming the victim. But there was this issue about I, the, the devil I know, which I learned to live with avoid, you know, reduce the abuse, even though I had to take it. And they didn't, a lot of times didn't expect it to escalate, which it did. Cause it was never within their own control, but there must be, there must be a lot of trust issues, with foster youth. - Oh yeah. - I mean it can, imagine must be very difficult. - Yeah. I think with CY, what's great and the reason why I, you know, another reason I fall in love with CYC is because, the organization got started by foster youth and continues to be driven and run by foster youth. And there's a community in CYC in which the members, when they come together, which is, I always find is my favorite part. When all the young people come together, there's an acceptance. There's an understanding. There is, there's no need to explain certain things. And I think like Maggie said, like, you know, whether she's here or Alaska, there's, there's, it's like you have your own membership card and that, and it's neat from my perspective (Sheila Kuehl laughing) - to sit and watch it. - No, it's true. Cause it's even thinking about when me and Maggie first met, it's like, you know, there's this unwritten rivalry between the Bay Area and LA, you know. (all laughing) LA people are a certain way are portrayed in stereotypically a certain way. - [Maggie Tuazon] Right. - And North Carl people are, you know, portrayed in a certain way. So Maggie is like, okay, you're from former foster youth. You're cool, you're gay, you're cool. We're family, you know, (all laughing) it's like, no problems, but you know, elder LA people, you know, we can talk about that, but it's so true. Like we just, we bonded immediately and got to know each other and it's true like we didn't, we live 500 more miles away and never knew each, each other, but we are like brother and sister now. So yeah. It's cool. - So if you were to give advice, I mean, there's a lot of different people watching the show, probably some of them are lesbian or gay or Bi or questioning or transgender youth. If you were to give any advice to young people and or people who are thinking of being foster parents. I mean, I, we don't know who's watching. What would you say? Jacque I'm gonna ask you first so that. - Cause, (Jacque laughing) I see them forming their thoughts. - [Maggie Tuazon] Yeah. - I know you probably know what you'd say, but go ahead. - Are you just talking about LGBTQ youth in foster care system or in general, or? - I don't care, whatever you want to say that you've learned or that you would like people to learn. There's I mean, obviously this show is about - [Jacque Lindeman] Definitely. - LGBTQ kids in foster care and, and beyond, but it's, it's also about foster care and it's also about LGBTQ kids so, - I would, I guess my thing would be to people that are inquiring about being foster parents. And as to remember that, underneath all the labels that people put on everybody, is a true human, human being. And, and to really take a look at how you view people before you make the commitment to be a part of a young person's life. That would be my word of advice. - And what about LGB T parents? I mean, there must be people, couples, single, you know, single who are really, seriously considering being foster parents. - I think if you have the heart and you have the love and you, and you want to do it for the right reasons, it's worth the sitting through the trainings. It's worth having to go get your fingerprinted. It's worth it, because there's so many beautiful, beautiful young people out there that just need a good home and need to be loved and accepted for who they are. And if you have the heart and you have the passion, you can, you can give up just a couple of your Saturdays to sit into a training and. - Have sleepless nights. (Sheila chuckling) - Oh and nights. Now it's, you know, depending where you go and do it because truly you will get, the young people, young person will get a lot out of this, but you will get 10 times more than you would ever expect. - What would you guys say? To anybody who's watching or to different groups watching? - What I would say to LGBTQ people is remember your predecessors, you know, like, remember those who have died to be proud, to be the embodiment of the word gay or lesbian or transgender, transsexual, you know, like Gwen Araujo, like Lawrence King, who is a foster youth as well and who died. Matthew Shepard. Remember those people and fight as hard as you can because people do not have to be murdered like that. And that's why I fight so hard because I don't want to see another one of my family members, LGBTQ war, foster youth die like that. So you fight as strong, not you personally, but every, you know. - Yeah, me personally too. - Yeah, well you personally too, (Sheila chuckling) of course but, - [Sheila Kuehl] But it is one person and a bunch of people, isn't it Maggie? - Yeah. It's, say that again, I'm sorry I was just, - I'm thinking of what you do as an individual. I'm just listening to sort of your, stories and what we do when we organize. Cause you're really engaged in both really. - I'm not quite sure what you're asking me but. - Well you said to fight. - [Maggie Tuazon] Yeah. - Tell me what that means to you. - You, you come out, you, you do whatever you can in order to be proud of yourself. Don't let anyone else like tell you, no, you're not supposed to be that. If you feel that that's who you are, then be you. Don't be afraid. They weren't afraid. Matthew Shepard wasn't afraid. Gwen wasn't afraid. You shouldn't be afraid, you know? Like, be proud. - Sometimes people are afraid because they think something will happen. And the interesting thing about life experience is, it happens. - [Maggie Tuazon] It does. - And you're still here. And then you do something else with it. So, I think that sometimes people are afraid because they, it's like coming out where it seems like it's this brick wall and everybody's gonna hate you. And then you just very tentatively come out to somebody and they didn't hate you. And it turns out to be not as much of a brick wall, you know, because actually sometimes they're even welcoming. And just waiting for you, you know, outside the closet or whatever. And that's something, when you say don't be afraid, even if you are afraid. - [Maggie Tuazon] You, you do it. - You do. - And I, and I remember, you know, writing in my journal, even before I, I, I came out where I was, I was just afraid. Like, you know, I wouldn't admit it to myself and all that stuff. And just push yourself to overcome that fear because when you, you know, face your fear, you get stronger. And, and then people start getting scared of you. Like, oh, (Sheila laughing) here she is, a new advocate, you know, or, you know, whoever it is. So. - [Sheila Kuehl] What would be your advice Torhon? - Well, like you were saying, strength comes with numbers. So, you know, once they come out to that one person, they can, they, you know, have a community they can feel supported with, I think that'll be helpful with youth coming out. But what I would say is, kind of speaking to the foster parents to, just to get to know the youth, you know, get to know them truly. Who they are and, without judgment, you know, because again, not only is it the fact that, you know, you're treating a youth in a certain way because of their sexual orientation, but you're helping and develop them into being a human being and an adult that, you know, can become a productive citizen or not, you know, because of the experiences they have with you as a caregiver. So I'll just always say, you know, get to know youth with open mind because I'm like Jacque. I love the 14 year olds and you know, the younger ones, I, I just, you know, I vibe with them, but getting to know the youth is the most important thing. - Was there one person that was important in, because you've clearly gotten through so far and done beautifully, was there a person? - I prayed a lot (chuckles). I prayed a lot, I mean - Well, that's a, that's a person. - Yes, I did. I mean, God, I, I definitely of course coming from a religious background, being raised in the church, I, I've always relied on God and prayed, but initially it was a pray to get away and to pray that God would take the burden away from me. But, after I got through that process, it's a bit more of just thanking God for, you know, giving me the strength to be who I am. And now, no one can take away the strength from me and no one can, you know, make me feel that I can't be myself ever. - And Maggie, in addition to the woman that said, "Cut off your hair," it sounded like that was a pretty helpful piece, was there a person? - Well, there's, there's two people. There was a, my permanent connection. I don't know how to explain that. It's a foster care word, but permanent connection. Someone who will always be there for me. She really made a difference. I don't know if I should say her name or not. I don't know if I should put her on blast or something. Well, her name's Kate and she, I initially met her with Bay Area Youth Centers, but she now works with California Youth Connection. She introduced me to California Youth Connection. Second person is my mother, my biological mother. And I didn't have to come out to her, when she saw that my hair was shaved. She was just like, "oh, my daughter is a boy." Like, (all laughing) and I never had to come out to her. She just kind of knew. And she has never given up on me. I have to say. And so both Kate and my mother, kudos to them. - Well and kudos to you. And to all three of you, thank you so much for being on the show. I really appreciate it. I think it's a very important issue for people to think about. And thank you very much for being with us. We're gonna have some of the website addresses that you can go to at the end of the show, under the credits, which will be just in a minute. And just remember, there are all kinds of people, as you walk down the street, as you sit in a restaurant, as you go into the movies, some of them are lesbian, gay, transgender, young people, some of them are former foster youth, but we need to all work together and get used to it. (bright music)