Get Used to It: Ep. 167, "Voices of Our Lives: Roy Ashburn"

(upbeat music) - Hi, welcome to Get Used To It. I'm Sheila Kuehl and as always, I am your host through this hour of incredibly fascinating information and conversation. At least I hope you'll find it that way. Every so often we do one in a series we call Voices of Our Lives and this is one of those days. And today my guest is former state Senator Roy Ashburn, long standing public servant, a Republican who made some headlines not too long ago by coming out. So we wanted to interview him and have you see just what's been on his mind and kind of what's been in his life. Roy, welcome. - Thank you very much, glad to be with you. - Of course, I mean, we had long time serving together in the California legislature and I'm really glad that you're here. - Thank you, I'm glad to be here, and I definitely enjoyed our time together serving in the legislature. - Well, let me start sort of further back than people usually do, 'cause they just wanna talk about things that just happened. But I kind of like to know what is it that leads a person through their lives and what their lives have been like? So if you don't mind, start kind of from the beginning, where'd you grow up? - Born in Long Beach, raised on the Central Coast in San Luis Obispo County. And then after high school went to Bakersfield for a job and worked there for a good long time. And then for the last 14 years, Bakersfield and Sacramento, close to the State Capital. - So in your childhood, what were your folks doing? What was their work? - My dad worked for the Union Oil Company at the refinery at Wilmington, and then later transferred up to Santa Maria. He was always with Union Oil Company and always with the refineries. Mom was a typical. - [Sheila] That's mine too. - Typical housekeeper. And I had two brothers, four years older and four years younger. And so a fairly traditional, typical California family. - And I think when we were talking earlier, now that we're talking about your having come out in your sort of your life as a gay man in the closet and not in the closet, talk a little bit about your childhood, did you have a sense that you might be gay early on? - I did, but I don't think for, I think at young ages people have feelings, but don't know what they are. - [Sheila] Right. - And don't know how to express them or to, so I knew there was something different. I can remember trying to kiss a boy on the playground in the third grade. I remember in the fifth grade, maybe being taunted and I actually was, there was a boy that got physical with me in the boys' room at school, not physical in a provocative way, but he was trying to hurt me. - [Sheila] In a hurting way, ah-huh. - He was trying to hurt me. So, you know, I wasn't articulating being different, but maybe people were perceiving it, and I guess I knew that there was something different. - Speaking for my generation, which is sort of around yours, I think I'm probably a little older, but was not a good thing to realize in yourself kind of a scary thing. Were there messages that you had gotten about whether this was a good thing or a bad thing or just general? - I don't have recollections of having a sense of right and wrong or good or bad about it. It's just that I knew that there was something different, but not so different that in high school I dated a girl for the last two years, we were steady boy and girlfriend in high school. And then after high school, I dated a girl that I had gone through school with, and it was a pretty passionate romance you would say, so, there may have been feelings there, but then, you know, I was doing things that I guess you would be expected to do. - Right, and it's kind of like, I do understand entirely, it's not really a rejection, it's almost like I don't even wanna go there, I don't wanna think about that. But I remember you told me a story about one of your teachers. - Right. This memory is so strong even to this day, in the sixth grade, now that's a long time ago. One of our teachers at the school that was part of a group of men who were in the sand dunes near Pismo Beach, and they were arrested for their activity, and they were labeled as homosexuals as gay. And the word went through the community and through the school and I can remember the turns and the put-downs and the ridicule, and that struck me in a way that for always, I remember that if you acknowledge that you are gay, if you acknowledge that you're different in that way, this is what's going to happen to you. You're gonna be labeled a pervert, a dangerous person. You know, there's some kind of a sexual deviant because those are the words that were being associated with one of our teachers who happened to be a part of that group of men that were arrested. That memory has stayed with me always. - Well, it would be a pretty powerful message that that was not something that you wanted to, A, be, or B, admit about yourself. - Well, especially since at the age of eight, I realized now one of my revelations that I wanted to be a politician. It was not a subtle thing, it was a passion that I was interested in government and politics, and I wanted that for my life. And so I ran for every school office, I was a volunteer, even riding my bicycle to the campaign headquarters when I was eight years old and 10 years old and 12 years old. Ronald Reagan ran for governor of California, came to my town in San Louis Obispo County at the very beginning of his campaign. And because I was 12 years old, I had the honor of greeting him when he stepped off the bus, the very first person. That was the life I wanted a very public life. And then I knew there was something different, and then this event occurred at the school where if you were different in that way, that was not going to be acceptable. - Right, and you could kiss your career goodbye. I mean, it didn't matter in those days, even Republican or Democrat, it was pretty serious that this was just not gonna be the thing that you wanted to be. But you of course have been a Republican all your life. - I was born a Republican. (Sheila laughs) - I could see that Roy from the minute I met you. - My mom and dad were not registered to vote. There were no family members active in politics. We had one aunt who was in the Republican Women's Club in Long Beach, I'm up in Pismo Beach, that's a long distance, and I didn't know this aunt very well. So I don't know what the origin of my Republican leanings are, but it's real. And so I took mom and dad in 1966 to the campaign office of Ronald Reagan and had them register as Republican so that they could vote in that election. My family was not political, but for whatever reason, that was my passion. - So where did you, after high school, where'd you go? - After high school, I had the opportunity to go to Bakersfield and actually work for the Republican campaigns in 1972, they had a one paid position to coordinate the volunteers, do the voter registration and that sort of thing. And at age 18, I was hired by the Republican, so I made the big move from the coast in San Luis Obispo to Bakersfield. And so that was amazing, I got paid to do what I had always wanted to do, and that was the beginning of my political life. Because after that, I went to work for a county supervisor as a field representative, and then after that for a new US Congressman as his local representative, and then I ran for the county board of supervisors myself. - And did you go to college? - I delayed college for five years after high school. I married a woman at age 23, and so there was, well, something happened right after high school that changed my life in a profound way. - [Sheila] Will you talk about that? - I will. I met this girl in high school and we had gone through school together, and after graduation, she went to San Jose to college and I went to Bakersfield to work for the Republicans, but a fast and furious romance developed. And we dated a couple months and made a trip to Los Angeles, and on the way back up the coast, I had a terrible car accident and only my car involved, I was the driver, but my girlfriend was killed in that accident. And that changed my life and really sent me into, what I guess we call today a depression. - [Sheila] Sure. - In those days you didn't go to psychiatrists or therapists, you just kind of suffered. And I became extraordinarily withdrawn for five years. I didn't date, I didn't go out, I went to work and I went home and I drank, and that was my life for five years until I met the girl who then I married and she became my wife for the 26 years. - And you had children and she had a child already? - She had one child already and then we had three together, three daughters, and so four daughters total and a very, very public life because elected at age 29 to the County Board of Supervisors. And then from that 12 year service to the state assembly, for the next six years, and then eight years in the state Senate, a very public life. But by then the realization that, you know, yes, I'm gay, but also the terror that I would be found out, that somehow somebody would perceive it. And in my own twisted thinking that there was no way me believing, there was no way that I could be gay and be elected, especially from Bakersfield, California. - And your party by then, because I was there when you were there, and we started in the Democratic Party electing, I'll say a few. I mean, you know, the LGBT caucus has never been very big, although we had a caucus after a while, it was just me for a while, but still the signals that we got were difficult enough, and I think in the Republican Party, it was becoming more and more of sort of a wedge issue that was being used. - [Roy] Right. - Which must have made it even more terrifying. - It was, and I don't think that, I'm not sure that any of us realized what was happening to the Republican Party at the end of the 70s and the beginning of the 1980s, when the New Western Conservatives had finally achieved the prominence in the Republican Party, Barry Goldwater, William Buckley, Ronald Reagan, and I really, but that was my Republican Party. People who believed in individual freedom, that people are responsible for themselves, and that government ought to have a limited role and government shouldn't be involved in what happens in your bedroom, but then beginning in the 70s and certainly growing in the 80s was the religious right. Moving in and becoming a part of, and you could say, you know, taking over the Republican Party, well, the religious right have a definite view about homosexuality. And it is a view that it is wrong from a moral and a spiritual basis and condemned by God. And that then drove the Republican Party away from this idea of individual Liberty and freedom to more of a condemnation if you were different. - Well, it seemed to me also in my cynical opinion to be a pretty good organizing principle, a fundraising principle. I mean, if you can whip up an enemy, it's kind of like you can get a lot of people who are going to church every Sunday, you know, in these more sort of fundamentalist arenas to think, well, that's the party for me because they hate the same people I hate. - [Roy] Right. - And probably it's was a useful too. - Well, it's always easier to be against something than to be for it. And to put somebody down because of who they are is certainly going to draw an audience and that did happen. - Let me go back for a minute to sort of connect some of these things as well, because this is the part that I wanna explore greatly, of course, in terms of sort of the current situation, yours and politics, but you mentioned the accident and it had a terrible impact on you in terms of five years of feeling really isolated, but were you probably didn't lose that feeling of isolation. I'm not certain, I know you were devoted to your wife and your family. I mean, we could see it, those of us who know you, but still there would be an isolation, the part that has to be hidden in authenticity in a way. So, did it serve the impact of that accident, would you say it lasted longer than these five years? - Well, I think it added to the fear and the isolation and the compartmentalizing of a life to be one thing in your knowledge of yourself, and to be portraying yourself as something else. My great regret looking back now is that I was dishonest and that I was deceitful and that I did use people. I used my ex-wife, I used my children, I used my family, I used my friends, I used my constituents in the promotion of my career and my desire to be in public service, and driven by this incredible fear that somehow I might be found out. I wanted to be this public servant, I think my goals and my motives were right, they were good in the service that I wanted to provide, but my means of getting to that service it was deceitful. And I have a tremendous regret about that. - Well, it must have been complicated too, by what happened with your brother, your younger brother. - Right. - Would you be willing to speak about that? - Sure. Well, my younger brother Dale was gay, and he died of aids 18 years ago. It was extraordinarily painful obviously for him, and for those of us who loved him, it was excruciating for mom and dad. It was a struggle for them to understand what was happening to Dale and how and why. - It was sudden for them to find out too. I mean, I'm not certain what their experience was, but in so many places early on, when people died of aids, their family had no idea they were gay. - [Roy] Right. - And suddenly had to deal with the whole thing all at once. - Well, Dale had a partner, even though he was very young, had a partner, but in mom and dad's world, they were roommates. They were two guys who were friends and shared the same apartment and bought a house together later. We never talked about it. - [Sheila] Right. - Even my brother and I never talked about it. When he got sick, of course, you know, we knew why, because this was a incredible scourge that hit especially hard on male homosexuals at the beginning. And Dale was lived in such agony, the medical complications and then the impact on the family. So here I am in public office pretending to be a straight man with a family voting against gay rights, and I have a brother who's gay, whom I love dearly, who's dying. And I'm doing things that are hurtful to him and hurtful to me and hurtful to other gay people. It was terrible. And I am so sorry. There are no words to express how sorry I am. - Well, I really understand, and I think I'm, you know, I'm pretty sure there are some of my viewers right now going, "Well, you should have had more courage Roy. "Should have had more courage." But I wanna say it's really easy for other people to say, and everyone comes to it at their same moment. I mean, for you to say you were using your family, my experience and my observation is that you're now being very hard on yourself, which is fine because you wanna be very honest about what you were doing. And very difficult, but what happened with your family? I mean, they came to know or suspect or something after a while. - Well, I mean, after so many years, I guess I reached a point where, and I never had a conscious moment of decision, that, well, I'm gonna start moving toward coming out, but I was doing it in my actions, and, you know, I was doing things and going places that I would never have thought about for the fear of being discovered. - It's a little more risky behavior going to gay bar or? - Risky behavior. - Gay bars, and sneaking into Las Vegas pride and San Diego pride and hiding in the crowd, drinking, you know, using alcohol and very unhealthful ways, risky behavior. - It seems like sometimes it's a kind of a way of hoping that you get found out. I mean. - Well, I think ultimately that's what happened because after all the night I was arrested for driving under the influence, I had left a gay bar in downtown Sacramento at two o'clock in the morning after having been at the Miss Latino Drag Queen competition that night, it was a pretty good show by the way. - Yes. - But when, you know, driving those few blocks in downtown Sacramento and seeing the red lights in the rear view mirror, I knew my life was over. I really believed it was over. I now know that it was the beginning of a new life, a much better life, a life of honesty and truthfulness. And so I apologize sincerely for my drunk driving and using alcohol and driving and putting people at risk in that way, I really am terribly sorry about that. But I am so relieved to now finally be truthful about who I am and to be able to say to people that I hurt my family, my friends, people who supported me and trusted me, and to gay people for the votes I cast, the speeches I made, the things I did that were hurtful. I regret it deeply and I'm not gonna be that way ever again. - Well, you are, on behalf of all gay people in the universe, I forgive you, Roy. - Thank you. - I don't know if all gay people in the universe do forgive you actually it's just that... - I can understand why people would have a difficult time forgiving me. - Well, you know, they have some choices and they may stay completely off at you. I mean, I have no idea, but your daughters knew a while ago, is that right? 'Cause I know you went through a divorce - [Roy] Right. - Before all of this happened. - Right. My ex-wife and I divorced, and my daughters were told at that time that I was gay. - [Sheila] By someone else, not by you. - Not by me. And so they've known that's another of my regrets is that for six years, my kids had the burden of keeping my secret. That's a burden no father should ever put on his children. - So six years between the divorce of when they were told. - Between the divorce. - And the arrest for drunk driving. - And when I finally came out on March the eighth of 2010. - So here you are with the red lights in your rear view mirror, you've had too much to drink, you've coming from a gay bar and a drag show in Sacramento and the Sacramento believes (indistinct). - With an unidentified male in the front seat of a state vehicle. - Of course, right. I can only imagine what's going through your mind, but what happens then that night, the next day and the next day? - Well, the one thing I wanted, the one decision I made then was that I wanted to be treated as any other person would be treated, not as a special character. And I believe I was treated in that way, and so I spent a long night in jail and then I snuck home. The media was already on it, rumors were already flying about obviously a state Senator being arrested for drunk driving his news. Well, where was he? What was he doing that night? And so the rumors were already out there about being at a gay club that night. So for the next three or four days, I was home alone in the back bedroom of my house because the TV cameras were also lined up on the sidewalk out front. My doorbell was being rung every half hour by the news media trying to get me to say something. And for during that several day period of time, I made a decision that it was over, the dishonesty was over and I was going to be honest and I was gonna tell the truth and I was going to come out and that I would be truthful, totally truthful and honest about everything from that point forward. And so then I decided, I the decision I had to make was how to come out. - [Sheila] Right? - Well, if I figured if I'm gonna come out, I don't wanna do it subtly. - [Sheila] No. - So I picked a very popular radio talk show in Bakersfield, California, hosted by a very, very conservative radio talk show host. And so at 9:15 in the morning on March the eighth, I called the radio show and I said the words that I am gay. - And what was the response from the conservative host? - Well, she actually conducted a pretty good interview, I thought and... - It wasn't a call-in show? - Well, I was on for 15 minutes, there were no callers. I think people were. - Shocked? - Were shocked, maybe too shocked to dial the phones, but anyway that's the way I came out, and of course it made news not just in. - Oh yeah, everywhere. - California, but all over the world. - And then you had to, there were two things I wanna ask. One is you had to go back to work. - Yes. - I don't think people quite understand what it's like to be a state assembly member or a state Senator, you all work together in one room. - [Roy] That's right. - You know, the floor. - [Roy] Right. - And there's only 40 senators. So here are 40 senators, I was already termed out and you go back and here's your guys from your caucus who are not the most affectionate of gay people, I mean four gay people and my guys, none of whom wanted to go over and hug you because they were afraid that all the news would be, you know, Democrats embrace Roy Ashburn. So what was it like walking onto that floor? - Well, you're a big part of that story because as I understand it, you had been out of the Senate for more than a year. - Right, I was just back visiting that day. - And you had come back that day, maybe not even knowing about. - Had no idea. - What had transpired with me? - No idea. I knew you'd had a car crash. - So I came in to the room and the TV cameras were lined up. - [Sheila] Inside the floor. - Waiting to catch every moment of my arrival. - Right. I know I walked down the floor and Chris (indistinct), also a lesbian Senator said to me, "Don't go over and hug Roy, they wanna get that picture." And I thought, well, I've never had a car crash, and you know, I mean, I don't know what that's about, I had no idea. - Well, you and I did hug. And that hug meant more to me than almost anything. I needed it at that moment and I couldn't, that morning I had come out on the radio. I had no voice, yes, I could speak but there were no words. You were my voice that day. - Well, it was interesting, Roy. I mean, it just goes to show you things you don't know. I walked off the floor still not knowing you had come out, had no idea. And I walk off the floor and there's an area next to the floor where you walk out to the hallway called the gate where people are not allowed on the floor they wait there for you. And I walk out to a gaggle of cameras and microphones, all, you know, right in my face saying, "What do you think about Roy Ashburn coming out?" And I must have looked totally stunned, and I said, "Roy Ashburn came out?" And then they started asking, "Well, how do you feel about a man "that voted against gay rights and (indistinct)? And all I could think to say was, that if you're ashamed of who you are, of course you don't think your whole group should have any rights, which is really all I said about 15,000 times, you know, but I was happy to be your voice without even knowing that's what was going on that day. - Well, the compassion that you showed and the understanding that you were willing to extend was remarkable and I appreciate it more than I can ever say. - Well, we're even more family now than we've ever been aren't we? - Absolutely. - But you also had to go to court. I mean, there must have been something that came out of the crash. I shouldn't call was crash. - Well there was no crash. - It was just a, you were drunk driving, sorry. - Yeah, no, there was. - Sorry, I kept thinking that there was some you know, big blow. - Of all the bad things that could have happened, fortunately there was no crash. - Sorry, you were just pulled over. - No, I was pulled, I actually was only a few blocks from the gay club in downtown Sacramento at 2:05 in the morning. So there was hardly any traffic and, you know, the highway patrol had pulled behind me for a couple blocks and had seen that I was weaving and pulled me over, so I did the things that every first time drunk driver does with the court system, I paid the fines, I went to traffic school. I went to mothers against drunk driving class. I found AA and have been very active with alcoholics anonymous since. I regret deeply driving under the influence, it's a very irresponsible thing to do. - So tell me about your life now. I mean, here you are, you've come out in Bakersfield radio. - [Roy] Right. - And you're termed out of the Senate. - [Roy] Right. - At the end of last year. - [Roy] Right. - And you're in recovery and you're out. - [Roy] I am. - So what is life like? - Life is amazing. It really is amazing. People have been very, very kind. I think people would be surprised maybe by my colleagues in the legislature, the Republicans, I think people would expect the Democrat members to be kind. - Some of us understood you. - Understanding, but the Republican members have been wonderful with me as well. And the truth is that nearly everyone has someone close to them who's gay. A family member of the son or daughter of a close friend, a close friend, a neighbor. And so it's pretty hard really when you pull back the theatrics and sort of the expected, and it's just people to people, you know, it's kind of hard to keep up the put down and the hatred. And so I saw that with my Republican colleagues and I'm, you know, I'm happy about that. Honesty is incredibly liberating. And so no longer being in fear, being totally truthful and honest in all aspects of my life has been wonderful and transforming. And I now want to do everything I can to try to advance equal rights, total equality under the constitution and under our laws for gay people. No one should be discriminated against, especially in the United States of America, no one. And so as a Republican and as a Republican who was elected to public office, when I left the Senate, I was the only out Republican elected state official in the country. I mean, that's what a rarity, a Republican gay out person is that maybe by speaking out and saying, especially to the Republicans, there's a hypocrisy, the Republican Party says first and foremost, the party of individual Liberty, the party of freedom, except for gay people. Now, wait a minute. - [Sheila] Right. - That is not an acceptable contradiction. That is not an acceptable hypocrisy. And so I want to face that directly on and to challenge those who profess to lead our party, that that is not an acceptable position. And I think Republicans will be maybe surprised to learn that if on this issue, they would be true to what the party professes that more people would be willing to give the Republican Party a second look. - Well, it's interesting to me because your colleagues, as you said, and my former colleagues were good about it. We're welcoming to you, we're not casting you. - [That's right. - Or, you know, throwing you out of the caucus or whatever. And yet I'll bet you dimes to donuts as my grandmother used to say that this year on the floor, they'll still be making. - [Roy] Oh, absolutely. - Homophobic speeches or voting against gay rights. - [Roy] That's right. - And you know, it's one of those contradictions that I've seen, I had the same thing in the Democratic Party when I first brought the gay student bill, there were eight Democrats who had been elected, who were from districts like your district in Bakersfield a little bit, but they were Democrats being elected from, you know, Central Valley, et cetera. And they absolutely could not vote for any gay people. They just couldn't do it because they were afraid. I mean, there's all kinds of fear, Roy, isn't there? - Well, fear rules, fear rules in the actions that many of us take. And so, you know, when you're not true to yourself, when you know you're doing something you're casting a vote that you know is not right, but you're doing it because fear of retaliation or fear of not being elected, that's not leadership. And, you know, having been there as you have been there, we have a responsibility and I think that's, I mean, take a look at where we are in our national political scene today. - [Sheila] Right? - Isn't that what people are asking for from our political leaders? Is the honesty and the truthfulness and being straightforward about the problems that confront us? Now, I guess politicians will always be, you know, maybe a little fearful of their electorate in, you know, wanting to tow the line in order to get reelected. I tried to get away with that, excuse, by the way, the day I came out, one of the things that the radio talk show host asked me was, "Well, will you continue voting "as you have been voting on gay rights issues?" And I said, yes, because my responsibility is to vote the way my constituents would have me vote. Well, I come Bakersfield, California, that area is a very conservative area and you take a look at the, you know, gay marriage issue that's been on the ballot prop 22 and then in prop eight, and probably of all the areas of the state, the highest percentage of vote against gay marriage. So, you know, not just in what we would believe, the public opinion to be, but actually reflected in the votes that have been cast. - [Sheila] Right. - It's that way. But the position that I articulated then is not acceptable because when it comes to the rights that each of us have under the constitution, those rights require elected officials to stand up and fight, and so that's where I had it wrong. It's not acceptable to go along with even the prevailing view as we might interpret it within our community if it has to do with somebody's rights being trampled upon, or people being held back because they're not fulfilling their full rights in our society. And so that I corrected myself on that one and I believe it that we each have a duty and a responsibility not just to feel it inside, but to say it and to fight for it because our rights are next. - Well, I think it's been an amazing journey for you. And I think that many of the people who have criticized you for what they would call hypocrisy, as you went along, knowing pretty much that you were gay but being too afraid, I think that people forget their own journeys. They may have taken place earlier in their lives, but there's always a journey about coming out, there's always a journey. Now, many people who are quite young now, maybe growing up in an atmosphere where they don't feel the same fear. - [Roy] Right. - They're not overcoming the fear necessarily. They're not having to face as much of it, depending on where they grow up. But everybody feels this fear with their family. - [Roy] Right. - You know, will I lose my family if I come out? Will I lose my job if I come out? - It's still a dangerous time. And so what I see when I look at your, you know, your history is the same journey, simply culminated very recently. And one in which you've had to explore as a grown up what you went through all along the way. So how do you communicate this to other people, you know, in the party, for instance? Or other people that are thinking of running, how do you get this message out about honesty? Because you're, you know, you've woken up and now you're honest, and we're happy to have you in the honest camp, but what do you tell them if they say to you, "Roy, I can't do this now." - Well, I say what I said a moment ago is that if you're going to be in leadership in the Republican Party, you have an obligation to two things. One, to not be hypocritical in saying that the Republican Party believes in individual Liberty and then saying, well, except for gays, which is the current party position. - [Sheila] Right. - And secondly, that all of us in leadership positions have an obligation to fight for equal rights for every American. - And what do you think about the conversation they've been having about the military in terms of don't ask don't tell? - Well, I mean, this is an issue that is, well, I'm happy with the vote and you saw that eight Republican senators when finally was a straight up vote on eliminating don't ask, don't tell and allowing gays to openly serve in the military. Eight Republican United States senators stood up and said, yes, equal rights. I think it's a very good sign for a change within the Republican Party. I wish there had been more. I spoke on the Senate floor in favor of the repeal of don't ask, don't tell. You know, Barry Goldwater was in 1964, nominated to lead the Republican Party as the presidential candidate. He was a United States Senator from the State of Arizona. And his view about gay serving in the military was so straightforward even back into the mid 1960s, that this is an issue that we need to get over. You know, that there are gay people and there are gay people serving in the military and they're doing a great job. And anyone who would put their life on the line in service to their country ought to be celebrated and certainly ought to be treated equally. - Well, he's the one apparently who said, "I don't care if they are straight, "I just care if they can shoot straight. - [Roy] Shoot straight. - And also he has a gay grandson, do you think that might have gone into his thinking a little bit? - I think it does, I think having openly gay family members does affect because again, members of our family are the people we love and we know the best and we are born straight and we're born gay. And it is a reality that people need to accept that we are different. We are different people. But that all people in our country are entitled to equal rights. - It's complicated though. It's complicated for a family, it's complicated for an individual. So what kind of... - It's complicated by generational understanding? I mean, I was very fearful of telling my mom. I imagine people watching this show have had that same thought in their coming out, that at some point you've got to tell mom. And for me, you know, my brother was gay and it kept running through my mind. How am I ever going to tell mom that I'm gay? Because mom's gonna feel like somehow there might be something wrong with her. With not just one gay son, but two gay sons that maybe she's defective in some way. Well, that's a burden I didn't wanna put on my mom, but as I know people have experienced in their own coming out experiences. When I finally did tell mom and I had to hurry and tell her, 'cause it was coming on the news after by drunk driving arrest, I had to get ahead of the mobile home park neighbors telling her. - [Sheila] Right. - So I couldn't do it face-to-face, I had to do it over the phone. Mom was wonderful. And she said, well, "I don't care what you are. "You know, I love you no matter what." - And she probably had an inkling? - Well, and I've said that to so many friends since who are struggling, is that, you know, well, geez, I don't wanna tell my parents. And what I say is they already know. - Well, I mean the so-called glass closet. I mean, when I decided I had to tell my parents, I was 40 and I had pretty much known, I was a lesbian since I was, you know, 17, but I was in the closet as well. Talk about public life, I was on television. And when I finally wanted to tell my parents, I invited them over to coffee and it took me about four weeks to make that cup of coffee in the kitchen, you know, and my parents are going, "Honey, do you need some help with the coffee? When I finally came out and with the coffee, I also came out and my mother said, took my hand and she patted it and she said, "it's okay, honey, we always knew you like girls better." Boom, you know, and I'm 40. - [Roy] Right. - Could you have told me this when I was 20? But of course it was my responsibility not theirs, they just stand there, you know? - Right. - Patiently waiting for you to come out of the closet pretty much. Or, you know, when you're as old as we were coming out to them, they've got a lot invested in you too. - [Roy] Right. - They don't wanna give you up, but it's still scary. - It is very scary. And you can see in very real ways how difficult it is for young people with the suicides that we've just witnessed and the bullying and the tormenting and the taunting that even today is going on. Young people today have it, I guess, you know, I can say they have it easier than I did in an earlier, less accepting time. But even now the put downs, the taunting, the bullying is going on, and it has a profound effect on people, even to the extent that a young person would take their own life, I mean, that's a horrible thing. - So how do you plan to sort of use this new feeling and information? I mean, I've never seen you so happy. I've never seen you so relaxed. I'm a big fan of honesty too, and I can just see in you that it's simply, it's like a burden that's removed, now, how do you pass that on? You said people have been asking you about stuff. - Well, I wanna make myself available. I wanna speak out. I'm writing a book, and my book is not just my life story, a public life and a big secret and how difficult it is to reconcile those two, but also to challenge politics and some of the, and the Republican Party and this contradiction as I call it. I mean, we just need to get over it. And if I can be helpful in telling, you know, my story and in acknowledging what I did, that was harmful and hurtful for gay people, but then to say, you know, I'm gonna do everything I can to make up for it. And do you find any kind of opening at all in the party to listen? - Well, yes, actually. I mean, there are organizations that are working very hard to get the message out and to try to communicate with elected officials, Democrat and Republican. I had the opportunity to speak recently in Washington, DC at the conference for one of these groups. Can you imagine me a gay Republican going and speaking to a gay organization in Washington DC? But I was glad to do it and relieved by the reaction, you know, after people say, you know, I wasn't very happy with you. You're right, you had every reason to be unhappy with me and what I did but join me now and help me now, because maybe I can speak to Republicans. Maybe I can reach some people that we couldn't reach before, and that's what I want to do. - And you have a good relationship with your daughters too, don't you? - Oh, they're the best. - Yeah, I know you always smile so much when you talk about them, but that must have felt risky too. I mean, we all feel like, I wonder whether I'm gonna have a family left after this all happens. - Well, I just have such regret again, for putting them in the position of being the keeper of dad's secret. That's a burden that no child should ever have to bear for a parent. And I did that and so I'm very sorry, and I've apologized to each of my daughters and they've forgiven me and they're amazing. I love them with all my heart. - So what plans for the future, Roy? I mean, it might be a little more difficult being an elected public servant these days, although we don't know. - [Roy] Right. - How the times might change, but what do you think about for the future? - Well, I don't know, I love public service. - [Sheila] I know you do. - Again at age eight for no apparent reason, I was infected by the political virus. And I've had a wonderful opportunity to serve and I wanna continue and Governor Schwartzenegger has made it possible for me to continue by appointing me to a very significant board that has to do with unemployment insurance and disability insurance for the workers of California and for the employers and their interest. And so I'm looking forward to that service, but who knows, I may want to run for office again. And I may wanna run for office in a very conservative part of California. And I have a feeling that if I run with total honesty and speak directly to the issues that affect the lives of people in our communities and in California and in our country, I might just win. - Well, you know, it's a funny thing, because as you said earlier, people look at politicians and they're very upset, mostly about the lies. - [Roy] That's right. - About hypocrisy, about whatever, just tell me, you know, the truth. Who are you? What do you believe in? - [Roy] Exactly. I wanna vote for you, I wanna vote for the person that's really there. And what I found when I ran, because as you might imagine, since no gay person had ever gotten through a primary, I was a little concerned about the honesty and yet it turned out to give me a reputation, doing nothing else, but coming out for honesty and courage, which is of course two things we want people to think we have. - [Roy] Exactly. - So with a few minutes left in the show, how would you sum up really your kind of message to the people watching the show, out of all of this life, the storm and drawing, the overcoming it and the place that you're in now, the very good place. What would your message be to people watching the show? - Well, my hope is that everyone will find that place of peace that comes from honesty and that we would be accepting and loving to one another. That's not asking too much, that each of us are wonderful, complex individuals, and we're so privileged to live in this great country. And the cornerstone of the greatness of America is the freedom that we have. The freedom to be who we are, and so if we can be who we are without fear that somebody else is gonna put us down, or that we won't have the same right that our neighbor would have. And if there's some way that I can help to bring people to a greater level of honesty and acceptance and to fully live that American ideal of freedom, that would be a great thing. - Roy, thank you so much for being with us today and. - [Roy] Thank you. - Being where you are and who you are, and really glad that you decided to do the show. - Thank you for having me on the show. I really appreciate it. - Absolutely, and thank you for joining us too. Remember, you are who you are for a reason. So get used to it. (upbeat music)