Get Used to It: Ep. 161, "Equally Married"

(clicks of typewriter keys) (funky guitar music) - Hi! Welcome to Get Used To It. I'm Sheila Kuehl, and I guide you through our hour of fascinating information and interview, and today we're gonna catch up with two married couples. Boring, you say? Not at all! These are gay and lesbian married couples, naturally, both couples of which married in 2008. And we wanna catch up and see, well, what's the difference, if any? So, the first half hour, we're going to be talking to two guests who were on our show, talking about their many marriages, (Jackie and Sharon laugh) because they had to get married again and again and again. And that's Jackie Goldberg and Sharon Stricker. Welcome back. - Nice to be here. - Thank you. Good to be here. - Thank you so much for doing the show again, and we've had a long talk about the difference that you felt at filing for domestic partner and then marrying in 2004, and then marriage was annulled, and all of this stuff that we've gone through in California. But here you are, really married, nobody's taking it away from you. - [Jackie] Right. Not yet. - Ring's on fingers and bells on your toes. - Bells on the toes. - Still. - So the question is, what's it like? Are you enjoying it, or ... - Absolutely. - Uh oh, it's a real marriage. - Absolutely, absolutely. - We just passed, actually, in June, the first anniversary, but we've actually really, in October, been together 31 years, so ... - Right. - So in some ways, it seems almost anti-climatic, and then on the other way, other ways, it feels like being a part of the larger society in a way that we weren't as domestic partners. I mean, there is a difference. And some of it happened at the time we actually got married with an outpouring of people who came to say, right on, and congratulations. Family members came from lots of difference places, and friends cut trips short to get there, you know, like it was a big deal. And that's a recognition that domestic partners don't get. That's a ministerial thing. You type up the form, you send it to the Secretary of State, bingo, they send you a little piece of paper that says, congratulations. - Well, bingo, thanks to you. Everybody got the same rights in California as married people, thanks to your bill. - Almost. Almost. - Almost. Well, you know, those little tax incentives but ... So, what I hear you saying, in a way, is that it doesn't necessarily feel that different to you, although I think it did. I remember there was some element of surprise that you, - Yeah. - That you both felt, it was kinda like, this is a political statement we're making, - Right. - We're gonna get married, we can do it, but then there was something even different at the time. - Oh, yeah. - Well, I think that acknowledgement of the larger community took us by surprise. I don't think that we expected, not just gay people and lesbian people, it was really the entire community. And I think that it gave you a kind of acknowledgement that you, I hate to say this, were sort of accepted, regular, normal, whatever that kind of idea is, that you too can be like everybody else and get married, and have children, and make a family, and it's okay. Especially if that's your choice. - I think both of us were really surprised at how emotionally, how emotional we felt on the actual day, that you married us. Sheila, you should know, married us all three times we've been married, so we thought this was a good plan, we're gonna stay with this. - You wore a different jacket each time. - But there was a very emotional reaction on the part of each of us and our kids, too. Our son and daughter-in-law were very emotional about it. - So they felt it was a different thing? - Oh yeah! Oh yeah. - And I think that what's also been wonderful is the number of young people who, when they get married, include in their ceremony an acknowledgement and a wish that everybody who wanted to be married could be married. I think that kind of statement, publicly as they've made, is very touching and a lot of the young people, I think, feel that way and that came out very clearly when we got married. - And actually, we know some young people who've chosen not to get married, heterosexual couples who've chosen not to get married until everybody can get married. So I mean, there's some interesting pieces to all of this. - Well, there really is. I think it opens up the much larger picture. I mean, there's the story of your lives. Now, you've both always been very active in the community and so, even your lives have been about community activism and therefore having a larger, sort of piece, as an example. But it is interesting, this whole thing has opened up a new discussion about what marriage is. It's one of the reasons why I wanted to catch up with you, too. Because now here you are, out in the world, and you're married. And I don't know, does that make a difference, as you go about your daily lives? - When I send my all of my emails to all of my elected officials, I now sign them Mrs. - Mrs Jackie Goldberg. - Mrs Jackie Goldberg. - I love it! - And I do that quite consciously, because I want them to know that I'm married. I want them to know, a lot of them know me, I mean, a lot of the people I'm emailing and sending letters to, and calling, know me, but I want them to see Mrs, there's always that title place. - But what if you were just writing an op-ed? Not an op-ed, a letter to the editor in the Times? Where they didn't, let's say they didn't know Jackie Goldberg was a lesbian. Would you still be proud of your married state? - I don't know, I haven't, haven't given it any thought. - Well, that's sorta the question. Kinda like, we're new in the club, - Yes. - And because we're in the club, and there's a whole statement about it, - Yes. - It's not just, oh phew, now I'm normal, I can marry. It's also, the world has changed. - Yes, yes. - Because I can marry. - Right. - Mm hmm. - I know I remember a speech I gave on the floor of the Assembly. Not on my Bill, that had already passed, But on Leno's Bill. - The Gay Marriage Bill? - On Gay Marriage Bill. And I looked at all of the Republicans and I said, you know, we get it! We get it! We understand, this is like an important thing! We get it! How come you think it's gonna hurt you if we get it too? Because it's very unclear to me, that part of the argument. That's the argument I understand the least. I can understand the part of the argument that says, it sounds so awful, or different, or foreign, we've never done it that way. I get that part of the argument. I don't get the part of the argument that it has any impact on anybody else except me and who I marry. - Right. - That's the part I've never gotten. But I do think that, we wear our rings, and we are clearly a married couple. And that is different from when we were when we were domestic partners. - In your work, Sharon, do you notice any difference in the people that you meet, or how ... - There just seems to be a more vocal acknowledgement and I think there's a feeling of acceptance that is different. I don't know how to give you a good example of it, but there is a feeling of broader acceptance by everyone and that it's okay. "She's a lesbian, it's okay." "She's married, she's a lesbian, it's okay." "Has kids, and it's all okay." - And married couples who welcome other married couples sort of into the club, I think some of that is, well, we made a commitment, this is a different kind of step. And now you've made a commitment, and we like that. Now, we weren't allowed to make it, and having made it as soon as we were allowed to make it, think that also means something, I don't know if people don't think this through exactly, - [Sharon] Oh no, right, right. - Like, why do I feel differently about somebody if they're married? - Right. - But you do, and I wonder whether some of it is, well, now I understand the depth of that commitment. It's not just living together. They signed, they made a vow, you know, like an ancient ... - Well, it's a contract, too, you know. I mean, this is the real deal. - And I think it also means that we're kinda like them. You know? We're not some alien entity here, which has always been a way, I think, to distance us. And, you know, it has all the mythology that, "Oh, gay relationships don't last", and all that kind of stuff that I think we all have fought. - Promiscuous. - Yes, exactly. - Changing partners like we ... - Yeah. When you're married, you can't be promiscuous. - Like we change, you know, hairstyles or something, I don't know. I don't change my hairstyle, so ... (Sheila laughs) But you know what I mean. Like you change your shirt. - And you haven't changed your partner in 30 years either. - Almost 31, 31 on October 2nd. - But I would say that one thing I did wanna just say when Jackie started signing Mrs, I find that that's not what I would do, because the whole "Ms" thing was so hard fought from feminists, and for me, I'm not there. But it isn't Mrs Sharon Stricker, either. In other words, she's not doing Mrs to my male name. She's doing her own name, still, with the Mrs on it. - Still is an interesting set of choices. And you know, you're bringing up using Ms, so that we wouldn't be identifying people's marital status, was a feminist choice, because there were two different categories. - Yes. - Right. - The ones that got married, they were wanted by somebody, and they were legal, and they were, you know ... - Lovable. - Yes, lovable. - And the Miss people were not lovable! - No. - They were the old maids. - Nobody wanted them. - Nobody wanted them. - That's right. - Right, so if you said Miss, then you were still looking. That was really sort of how it was. Yeah, I know, it's an interesting thing, because the feminist community was not all that hot for marriage. - [Jackie] Right, right. - We thought it was really kind of a hierarchical whatever. - When the San Francisco thing happened, I said, "Let's get married." She said, No! She said, "I've done that alreadY!" - Been there, done that, don't need to do it again. - Yeah, really. - But, you know, it was a political statement, and it was important to do, and once we did it, we really did see the impact. I mean, there is truly a change in the larger, what, zeitgeist, I would say. At least here in California. And I think even when we go back home to Illinois. - Yeah, oh yeah, I think so. - There's just an acceptance that - I think so too. - Wasn't there. - And I don't think single lesbians think of the couples that got married as being now in a different kind of hierarchy. - Right. - You know, I mean, it seems different from the way society used to say, Married, good, single, bad. - Right. - Because we were bad, then we got married and we're still -- - Bad! - Bad! - We're still bad. - "I don't care "if you get married!" - Can't believe me, doesn't screw up your taxes, let me tell you. Oh my God. - [Sheila] Your federal taxes? - We can't file federal except as single, okay? So your California taxes are based on your federal filing. But you can't file single if you're married. - In California? - In California. So, I did like ... - Where do you file? - I filed married filing jointly, but had to do the taxes completely from scratch all over again. - For California? - For California. And auditing is often based on the fact that the two don't agree. And now of course, forever they won't agree for us. - So we're awaiting the auditors! - We're waiting for the shoe to drop, for someone to call us up and say, "Hello". And I called the tax folks in Sacramento to say, how do I do this? - [Sheila] Of course, they don't have a clue. - And they said, "Well, ask your tax consultant." I said, "My tax consultant said, how do you do this?" - Well, it is interesting too because of the recent case in Massachusetts, where we're not quite sure what it's gonna mean about federal - That's right. - Sort of benefits, like how you file your taxes. - Well, if the Feds would let us file jointly, that would be so much easier, because then we could go back to having one filing and then you just take the information from that, and it becomes your California filing. - That seems remote at the moment, doesn't it? - Very remote, very remote. - [Sharon] But not impossible! All of this seemed remote to us, even in the 90s. - If you had asked either of us if we would, in our lifetimes, would we ever actually get married, we both thought that that was simply not going to happen. We thought it would happen, but certainly not in our lifetime. Certainly not. - Well, I remember in 1996, when Pete Knight brought his bill in California to bar gay marriage, it was, I had forgotten what a huge topic it was. And reviewing some of my files and looking at how we were just arguing this every single day, - I know. - And it made it so real, even if it was because someone wanted to say, you can't have it. Having not thought we would ever get it in the first place. - [Jackie] Right, right, right! - You're gonna bar me from having something I never expected to have anyway? Well, I'm gonna fight that, you know? - See, I thought, and I'm not a lawyer and you are, but I thought once a state, any state, legalized it, that the full faith in credit business would just mean that people wouldn't have a choice any more, because if you're a heterosexual couple married in California and you move to Montana, you're still married. - Right. - That's full faith in credit. - Right. - But if we move to Montana, we're not married! - Right. - We're not even domestic partners there. So I had some difficulty because of how important full faith in credit is to the financial institutions of America. It just seemed to me that they would have to say, not because they wanted to, but because they'd have no choice, and we can't have any exceptions to full faith in credit. So I actually thought that once one state did it, it was gonna tip pretty quickly. It never occurred to me that somehow or another, the legal eagles ... - Well, but that's why Congress passed the so-called Defense of Marriage Act. - [Jackie] I understand. - So that a state would not have to give full faith in credit, and then they didn't have to worry about what the law was gonna mean in their, I mean worry, you know, what the law was gonna mean in their state. - Well, that law should be unconstitutional, surely. - Well, the law, it may be declared unconstitutional. - [Jackie] That's true. - It was very interesting, 'cause the judge found that even if you don't apply a real high level of scrutiny in the equal protection question, didn't even pass a rational, what they call a rational basis. It's like, there was nothing rational about denying the recognition of these marriages, where they were legal in a state that made them legal. So, you know, every week it seems like something, - Yeah. - You know, moves forward. - It is, it is. It's interesting. It's an interesting time to watch all of this. And I think the thing that I cared the most about all of this for was really for young people, because young people who fall in love ought to be able to get married. That's all, period. End of discussion. If that's what they want. For us, it was suitcases of documents trying to protect our assets. We kept several lawyers well employed. - Who would tell us, however, that the documents probably would not be meaningful if we actually needed them. - Particularly where Brian was concerned. - Yes, our son. - Our son. They kept saying, well, I called, first thing I did when we, clear we were gonna stay together, was to call the county and say, Sharon wants to adopt this child. She said, fine, come on down. I said, really? She said, yes, well, of course, you'll have to give up your parenthood of him if you want her to have him. I said, no, no, no -- - [Sheila] He can only have one mother. - I said, that wasn't the idea! The idea was for both of us to be his parents. - Right, right. - And she said, I don't think we're there yet. This woman I was talking to on the phone. She was very pleasant, but, "I don't think we're there yet." - But that's where the Domestic Partnership Bill changed all that. - Right. - In fact, I was probably the first one who ran down to the county, who then looked at me and said, "What are you talking about? What forms?" Because I wanted to adopt Brian legally, - Right. - And nobody else had even approached them with that idea. And so he was 28 years old, that was okay. By then I was still gonna adopt him, because I'd raised him. So that was ... - Well, my sister was a family law judge in Sacramento at the time that your bill passed, and there were no forms. - That's right. - 'Cause family law in California's all form driven, well, a lot of the law. You have to have something to fill out. Until the Judicial Council invents a form, sometimes we even put it in the bill, like, to help them out. And there was nothing. And everybody was, as a matter of fact, the new judges' training, it's sort of like going to summer camp. The new judges training, and they're supposed to do skits, just like you do in summer camp, and one of the skits was like the old Johnnie Carson skit where he held up an envelope, and then he would give an answer, and then you'd open it up and it would be the question. And the judge who was pretending to be Johnnie Carson held the envelope up and said, "Under the Domestic Partnership Law." And then he opened it up and the question was, "Where are all the judges going to be buried?" (all laugh) 'Cause there was no way to figure out what to do with it! - Exactly. - And that, again, that's another advantage, I think, of just regular old marriage. - [Jackie] Oh yeah, oh yeah. - Because everybody kinda knows what to do with it. - That's right. - The rules are fairly clearly defined. - But the other thing I was gonna say, I think that what gay and lesbian people, and the feminist movement as well, have really done is redefined that whole notion of hierarchical marriage. And I think that certainly when we go into thinking about marriage, we don't think of it hierarchically, we think of it equally. You know, we are equal partners, and I think the definition of marriage has also changed in that sense, and that's been a real ... - I think that's what the right wing is really worried about. Those boys don't want those women to be equal to them! - Exactly right. Well, it's, I don't know, they certainly don't want marriage if it serves them well to change. - Right. - That's right. - And our more egalitarian relationships, not all of them, of course, but they trend more that way. Although we had our roles and issues too. - And some still do. And some still do. - And it was really a sort of gender kind of based thing. But it's very interesting looking at young couples. I don't know if you have the same experience with your son and your daughter-in-law, but the men are much more engaged in the kinds of things that only women used to do. - Yeah. - Absolutely, yes. - In terms of new babies, - [Jackie] Changing the diapers, even the poopy ones! - And in my family, it's the boys who are the cooks. - Yeah. - Yes. Brian is too. Brian does almost 100% of the cooking. - So the feminists have almost succeeded in some of that kind of ... - [Sharon] Oh yes, definitely. - And also, I think, made us realize how men were being denied, I mean, we could look at certain gay male couples who have children, one of whom's gonna be on the second half of the show. And we haven't really talked about this with them, but sort of the prejudice, especially if you're in the working world, - Oh yeah. - About taking time off for your child, while, you know, the wife would be doing that. - [Sharon] That's right, yes. - 'Cause I find that the young men in, even the staff in the building in Sacramento, they kind of have to fight to have the same ability to do it. So it's sort of the roles thing that's really kind of shifting. - [Jackie] Yes, very definitely. - And good, I think to a good point. I mean, I think it's really positive. - So are you grandparents? - Yes, yes! - We can talk about that for a minute if you like. - We have the most gorgeous grandson, Alejandro Eduardo Goldberg. (Sheila laughs) - She's not proud of him. - [Sheila] And there's another thing changing in America, too. - Yes, yes. Alejandro Goldberg, exactly. - And he's a very big boy, he was 12 pounds, nine ounces at birth. - Wow. - And he's now just a little over three months and he's already about 19 pounds. - Wow. - And so sweet. - [Sheila] Six months, the clothes are ready, huh? - Oh, six to nine months, we're in the six to nine month phase. - 'Cause all of his jerseys say things like Lakers. (all laugh) Dodgers. - That's fine with us in Los Angeles. - His hand is about that big already on my hand. - He can be a classical pianist. - Yes, yes, that's what we're rooting for of course. - Of course, and an athlete. - Yes. Rhodes scholar. - That's right. - Exactly, exactly. - But it's really, believe me, grandparenthood is really wonderful. We're just loving this little boy. - So have you noticed anything with Brian and his wife in terms of your being married? I mean, maybe they were relieved because they got married and now they weren't so politically incorrect any more? - I think they were happy. They were very happy when we got married, even in San Francisco, where we were pretty sure it wasn't going to be kept. But they came up for that. - [Sheila] Right, of course. - And they've, they were very, very happy at the marriages that we've had. - I think that Brian in particular was really pleased. - Yes. - Because, you know, he lived 28 years with us not being able to be married, and feeling the discrimination through all kinds of things, like we said. And so for him, he was quite pleased that we were now allowed to be married and I think that was really a joyful moment for him that way. - Even my 98-year-old mother said, "Well, it's about time you guys got married!" - She did, too. - Yeah, it is a difference. What would you say to young people who are thinking about getting married? Let's say heterosexual couples, who are ambivalent about it because our community can't marry? I haven't asked you this question, so I haven't given you a lot of time to think about it. - No, I don't know, you know, a part of me would say to them, don't get married yet. If everybody can't, then you shouldn't. But part of me also says, if you're ready to make that step and your commitment is there, just go ahead and do it, but don't stop fighting for the rights of everybody to get married. So I got a foot in each camp. But part of me is pleased, I have to say, when someone comes up to me, as some have, and said, "We're not getting married because you can't." I find that extraordinarily generous of them to actually give away a privilege that not everyone can share in. So, you know ... - I have a little different take on that, because I think if you're thinking about getting married and especially about having children, I think marriage is a protection, especially for kids. And so, while I would say if you, if you're not gonna have kids then it really doesn't make quite the same, I don't have quite the same argument. But if you're thinking about having children and having a family, there are certain protections in marriage that you just don't get if you're not. - [Jackie] We can tell you that! - We lived through them and I wouldn't put anybody through that again. When Jackie was having her back operated on, I couldn't even sign the documents. We had to run out and get a staff member or somebody, we had to call up and have them come, 'cause no one in the hospital could sign those documents. - [Jackie] Could witness it. - It's a conflict 'cause they could write your signature? - Yeah, well that's true, but a staff member because they were not conflicted by being a hospital person. - [Sheila] Right, right. - And they weren't anywhere near where I was, so I'm sitting here on a gurney waiting for someone to get there to sign some, 'cause we didn't think about having a power of attorney. We had a lot of documents, but we hadn't gotten to that one yet. - [Sheila] That was the one, right. - And we needed a power of attorney for health, but it has to be witnessed by two people who are not related. - Right, right. - Or who don't work for the hospital that you happen to be lying in there. - And we lived a lot of our lives in the early 80s, I would say, I did, I speak for myself, but I know you did too, anxiety, fear, that somebody could, whatever, I don't know what it would necessarily be, but come in and try to take our child away. And that's a horrible situation to live in with anxiety. - Well, particularly if anything happened to me. - Oh, yes, definitely. - 'Cause everybody told us repeatedly, every attorney we went to, repeatedly told us, well yeah, we'll make all these documents about what you want to happen after your child, but your brother or your parents have much more right to that kid than she does, who's raised him. - And then you would hear all these horror stories where things like that actually did happen. So there's a certain anxiety that we lived through. We survived, but I wouldn't wish that on anybody. - And we spent, when we had very little money, we spent a lot of money on lawyers. Who tried to package things in a way that, 'cause you don't know what's gonna happen. - You try to build a wall of rights around somebody where some of it might just be kind of ethereal. - [Jackie] Right, right. - You know, the best you can when someone comes to you for a document of some kind. But go back for a minute to this question of whether people should marry or not, it's just sort of an interesting thing in life, looking back, it's kind of where people have stood up for something in their lives that actually makes the biggest impression on them. So I can understand young people saying, it's sort of like going and being a freedom rider or something that you can do, even if you're just collecting money for some civil rights group or whatever. - Absolutely. - 'Cause it's something that you can do in your personal life that's, but this is a big one. As you said, it's a big one to just give up. - Those rights, those privileges, really. Those are privileges. I think one of those things, in a funny kind of way, Brian felt, and I'm speaking for him, was relief. Relief, oh finally, you have those rights, it is legitimate. I don't know that he thought we were normal. - [Sheila] But that's because you're parents. - Yeah. - So that has nothing to do with all the rest of it. - Well, and he lived with us all his life, so he knows. But you know what I'm saying. There was a kind of relief on his part, because it was accepted, we didn't have to worry in the way we had worried all those years. - [Sheila] Well, and he worried too? - [Sharon] Yes, of course he did, absolutely. - The old days when you didn't want people to find out, and then, - That's right. - He wasn't sure what happened if they did find out. It's a burden for all of our relatives as well. - Oh yes, oh yes. Watched my mother come out a little bit at a time, a little bit at a time, a little bit at a time. - [Sheila] May her soul rest in peace. - Until she was saying, "You're not going to say anything against my daughter, "are you?" - And to her credit, she always accepted me. - [Sheila] Oh, absolutely, she was a lovely woman. - A wonderful person. And my mother was a little, - In her own way! - Stand-offish, but how can you not like Jackie? - The Irish Catholic in Chicago, you know. - Sure, of course, but you're so lovable. - That's right. Once she got to know her, she was okay. She just couldn't figure out how he could have two mothers and Jackie said, "Well, she has the blond hair "and I have the dark hair." - 'Cause at one point, her mother said to me, "Why do you let him call her Mother?" And I said, "Because she's helping to raise him. "He thinks of her as a mother." She said, "Isn't that going to confuse him?" And I said, "No, no, she has blond hair, "And I have brown hair. He tells us apart really well." - Well, I'm so grateful to you for being on the show again, and congratulations. - Thank you. - You've definitely made a go of it over your 31 years, and done so well. And you stay with us, because we're going to talk to another couple for the last half of the show. So we'll be right back. (relaxed rock music) - [Announcer] For more information about Get Used To It, contact Eddie Robinson. Eddie's email address is ERobinson@weho.org. You can also call Eddie at area code 323 848-6489. - Hi! Welcome back to Get Used To It. Today we're talking about marriage. Yeah, I know everybody's talking about marriage, but we're talking about marriage in our Lesbian Gay community, and our second set of guests, another married couple, Richard Hoff and Schuyler Ha, who are going to tell us their story and we'll figure out, I guess, how marriage is treating them. So Schuyler, let's start with you. I don't think my audience actually knows the two of you at all. Tell me a little but about what you do, what you have done and what you're doing, kind of in life for working. - Currently, I am a graduate student in Clinical Psychology, and working a social service center agency doing clinical training, seeing clients. - [Sheila] This was a life change for you, right? - This was, because I spent about two decades in the entertainment industry being a film marketing publicity executive, and ... Yeah, and I reached a point where I was looking for something new, something more satisfying ... - This didn't happen exactly at the same time as your marriage by any chance, did it? - Er, it sort of did in a way. In addition to being married, we also had a child three years ago. And during that time, sort of having a child made me reconsider what I want to do in life and to sort of be a more fulfilling, happier parent and husband, and I think examining my life, that was a big decision making point. - I bet. Richard, what do you do? - My career has been in international relief and development, so I was in the Peace Corps after college and then I've worked for Save The Children, I've worked for Care, and I presently work for Episcopal Relief and Development, so I do fundraising and I've also worked in programs overseas. - Sounds like a very good balance. So let's go back a few years and talk about your relationship. How did you meet? - We met at a dinner party that a mutual friend, yeah, a mutual friend was having. And I was at the party, and he wasn't at the dinner, he came in a little bit later because he was dating the roommate of one of the hosts of the dinner. - Uh huh. - And things ... - So that was a brief meeting that lasted about 10 minutes of conversation, and then a couple of days later, we ran into each other coming out of the doctor's office. - [Sheila] Uh huh, it was meant to be, huh? - Had a little more dialog, and then he left to go out of the country for work, and a month later, to the day, he arrived back home. We ran into each other in a parking garage going to the same place. - Okay, something was trying to get you guys together. - At which point I was single, so ... - Really? - And then it just developed into a dialog conversation, friendship that led to, 12 and a half years now. - So 12 and a half years at the beginning, what you would define as the beginning of your relationship? - Yes. - Or identify as the beginning? - Right. - And did you think at that time at all that you might ever be married? - No. From the beginning, no. I mean, I knew that I liked him, and loved him after some months. And that I wanted to be with him, and think he wanted to be with me. But the idea of marriage, in those beginning years, I never really ... - As a gay individual, you think that being a parent, as a gay male, for myself, the idea of getting married or having a child, being a parent, in the traditional sense, just was not something that was fathomable or realistic, so ... - [Sheila] Right. We didn't even have a reason to expect it, - Yes. - Or want it. - And I'd actually been married before, to a woman, for about seven years. And so the marriage ended, obviously, and I wasn't really in a rush to get married again, and never thought that, as I realized that I was gay, that marriage was going to be a part of my future in any way. - Right. I know it really was, when you say unfathomable, is really, really true. I mean, we could not even have imagined it. And yet you began to make a commitment. So what was the first manifestation, public manifestation of your commitment? Did you register? - The filing of a domestic partnership. I mean, when that became available, it was like, wow, we're making a lot of progress here, I think it's really wonderful. And we reached a point in our life when we decided to live together, we purchased a home together, and then the thought of, well, we're carrying our relationship to this next level, we're committed to one another, this opportunity for these rights exists, they're limited in a domestic partnership, so why don't we file for it? At least have some rights as California residents. - Yeah, that was about five years into the relationship. We decided we wanted to actually live together, buy a house together. And so that's when we decided to do the domestic partnership. - And what was it that you thought would be the benefit of filing? Did it seem like more for the rights, or kind of a status, or ... - For me it was more the rights, that if something happened to me, he would get the house, those kind of legal issues ... - I think more like the healthcare issues, of hospital, of something were to happen to him, the right to be able to be present, to have a say, to not have somebody else come in and say, well, you're not really related, you don't have the tie. You have no rights. - Right. - And to be excluded in that manner just, it was just difficult to imagine, just because we're so devoted to one another and to our relationship. - Well, the rights in California for domestic partners are pretty much the same as for married people. But you didn't stop with just domestic partners, so I wanna know more about the process between that and your marriage. - Well, for me, it was a few years later that we were having dinner, Valentine's Day, at a restaurant, locally in Los Angeles. And we got to know this heterosexual couple next to us, and we just had this great conversation with them. And they had just become engaged, they were talking about it and so on. And then we were having this dinner and I looked over at him, and I said, "Do you want to get married?" And he looked at me, but he did say yes. Which was really good. But then it took about a year before we actually acted on it in any way. - Yeah, I think at that point, I think Canada was the only place where one could get married. Maybe Massachusetts had already been enacted. But we were also planning to have a child and going through the whole surrogacy process, and Richard proposed the year before, he'd said, "You know, we're having this child "and maybe we should get married now. "I mean, I'd hate to have our child be born out of wedlock." (Sheila laughs) And it was comical and funny, but at the same time, it was sort of, well, there's a good point there I think, in some ways. I mean, in some ways, having a child, again, changes your perspective and getting the opportunity to get married sort of almost legitimizes your relationship and for your child, the child, being a child of a same sex couple is going to have enough things presented in our child, or daughter's lifetime, I think, growing up, and I think to sort of cut out one less thing for people to have to say, oh well, you know, - [Richard] You're outside of marriage. - You're not really legal, your parents aren't married, you're not a real family. I think the whole marriage and whatnot, so it almost legitimizes to the public, and in some ways it also empowers us to sort of be this united family that we already recognize it to be, but at least to the public who may have not perceive it to be the same. Is that fair? - I think it's fair. For me, having been married in a heterosexual relationship before, and we got divorced, we were friends and so on, but I was also, the idea that I needed, as a gay man, to be married in order to be accepted or tolerated by what I saw as the dominant heterosexual society, seemed to me crazy, with divorces at 50 or 60%, the hypocrisy that goes with so much of "traditional marriage", I didn't want to just say please, please, please, let me into your club. 'Cause it wasn't a club that I respected. But I just thought, I loved him and whatever marriage was on the big level, for me it was, I love him, and now that we are getting even more serious about having a child, so let's look at getting married, 'cause every year, the world was changing. Whether it was 2004 or five that San Francisco allowed gay marriages for that brief month or so and then European countries were starting to allow gay marriage and Canada, like Schuyler said, at the time, about a year after I proposed, before we knew our daughter was going to be born in June or July, and so before she was gonna be born, about five months, I said, let's really do something. And Canada was the only country that allowed gey marriage for non-residents. So other countries, one of them had to be a resident, or a citizen, or Massachusetts had that law. Canada was the only one. Plus we had been to Montreal several times for his work and we had met people there, and just loved the city. Yeah, fell in love with the city. And so we said, let's get married. So, three months later, we did have the ceremony and invited our friends and family. - Yeah, interestingly also like while we talk about the rights that, at the time, being married in Canada wouldn't have afforded us any rights per se, certainly in California and the US. I think the active was also more of a statement of how we felt about each other and to honor in front of our friends and family just our love for each other. And to share our love for each other with people close to us. - Well, I think that's what ritual is for. And you know, we don't think a lot about ritual in our lives, because here we are, we're modern Americans, and we're completely separated from the old countries or wherever people come from, unless you're first generation or current immigrant or first generation, in which you sort of have a little bit. But generally in terms of ritual, you know, we have birthday parties, but we don't necessarily have birthday rituals, like you might have in a more traditional culture or whatever. But marriage is one of those, and as you say, it's often disrespected as much as it's respected by even those who participate in it. And yet it has this cache, and I think it's one of the reasons they kept us out. It's one of the reasons that you deny people the ability to marry, because it has such a cache in society. So, you know, normal. And therefore, if we want to allow you to do it, then you can never say you're normal. And that's how we're gonna keep you from ever being normal. - Exactly. It further marginalizes, right. - Right, I mean, see, we told you you aren't normal. And we're gonna make sure that you know that's the case. - Yeah, and that's what I wanted to show is that, I think our relationship is really good and our wedding was wonderful. We had about seven -- - Yes, tell us more about the wedding. 'Cause you had to travel pretty far to go do it. - [Richard] Right, Los Angeles to Montreal. - And we had about 65 people come in for it, which is pretty, a big statement to us. We were really surprised, I think. We had about 75 people in total. And I was surprised because the fact that these people, everybody who we found to be meaningful to us who were instrumental in our relationship and being a part of it in its development and growth, made the effort to be out there. - Yeah, the straight friends, gay friends, old, young, new friends, old friends, my family, I know I had invited several members of my family. And my brother and my niece in particular. And we had had some rough times, partly about being gay and other issues within the family. And so when I invited them and I didn't hear back from them or they weren't going to come, or something, and Schuyler did what I wouldn't have done, which was, he called them up and said, it would be really meaningful if you would come and attend the wedding. And so it was his call that pushed them, I guess, and it wasn't like a threat, but ... - [Sharon] No, no, I understand. - It got them to come to the wedding. And then my brother walked me down the aisle, and what I really see now is that they had gotten to the point of accepting me for who I was, they knew I loved Schuyler and vice versa, and that there was a good relationship. But I think being there, in the wedding, seeing all of our friends together, it made it, oh, just into something subliminal and deep that we are exactly the same. We are exactly the same, we just love someone of the same sex. - And we were also very cognizant that we, while we were having a wedding, that it wasn't going to be a traditional wedding in terms of the vows and the language that was being spoken. We pretty much wrote our own wedding. We had it officiated by a friend who knew us, who spoke about us and other participants, and everyone had a role. The only thing that was traditional was that we had to have an official sort of ... - [Sheila] Someone who could say that ... - Yes! - Canada has recognized this. - Exactly. Exactly. So he had this small role, he was very nice and he loved the ceremony. And he had us sign, and that was the official part. - So I think that's also why, I mean, states regulate, or countries regulate this, primarily because of property, children, et cetera. But the reason that most people go to weddings doesn't really have to do with the fact that now it's a law, or something. It's really, I've experienced this because I've been privileged to marry a number of couples, straight couples and gay or lesbian couples, when I was an elected official. And there's just this feeling of joyfulness in the people who come. I'm picturing your brother walking you down the aisle. - [Schuyler] My sister walked me down the aisle. - Right! Not a role that your siblings would probably ever have imagined they were going to have, and yet, I'll bet they were happy. - [Richard] They were really happy. - [Sheila] And why do you think they were happy? - I think because they're witnessing something that they didn't think they'd ever see, I think they seeing us happy made the difference but I think it was an experience that they never would have imagined or understood, and you can't really understand it until you're there, I think, and seeing it. And you realize, wait, this is a special moment because it's not a moment that everybody has the privilege of having. And just sort of a testament to the words that are being spoken by the people and also, you know, family is more than just who you're born into. It's also the ones that you create out of love. And they saw that. And they saw the sort of extension of our family. - And do your families get along? - [Schuyler] Yeah. Yeah, they do. They do. - Because that's another interesting thing about marriage, is that the families feel that they're suddenly in this kind of connected extended families, not that in-laws always get along. I mean, sometimes don't. But this notion that now you know his family, and he knows your family, and probably before you were married that's the case, but there's also a joining, this sort of official joining. - Yeah, I knew his family, his family knew me. I mean, he knew my family. But our families didn't know each other. - Until that moment. And interestingly, I think, since being married, has brought us closer to our families. And some way to each other's families. And then subsequently we got married again in California when it became legal in 2008. - Why did you do that? I mean, here you are, you're actually married. What made you decide to ... - Well, what happened was, we were married in May of 2007. - In Canada? - In Canada. So there's no legal marriage in California. So, wherever we were gonna get married, and that was the only place we could get married at the time wasn't going to be legal in California. - Recognized in any capacity. - A year later, I think, was June of 2008. The California Supreme Court made marriage legal for gay couples. And then of course Proposition 8 came on the ballot, so there was that window between June something of 2008 and November with the election where gay couples could get married in California. We didn't know what was going to happen after the election. So our marriage from Canada, well, when marriage became legal in California, our marriage in Canada was then recognizeD as a legal entity. A legal union. However, we started realizing as it got closer to the November election that if Prop 8 passed, that our marriage in Canada would definitely not be recognized, but marriages between June and November in California might be recognized. So ... - I think it was just to ensure that we thought about it, well, we don't really need to get married again because we've already done this. But there were benefits to it. If our marriage, our California marriage, could be recognized as being legal, there were legal benefits that extended to us as well as parents to a child that were important to have. And at the bare minimum, sort of being a part of a movement that was fighting for its equality and just sort of historically it just was, to me, symbolic and something that we wanted to be a part of. - Now you said, you started to say, as an aspect of your marriage, that it had brought you closer in some ways to your families. And then you said, on our California marriage, was their a relationship in, were you thinking a connection there, something you, I interrupted you and there was something you didn't get to say about being closer to your families? - No, I think ... It's interesting, I mean ... I don't know that there was a, it did bring us closer, there was more activities, more events, I guess, to be ... - I think the wedding was probably, the wedding in Canada, was that moment when my brother and niece and his sister and brother-in-law, they were there, they were the main elements from the families. They not only got to know each other, and my cousin, also, - [Schuyler] Also our friends. - Well, yeah, all our friends. They just got to see all the love that was around us, and that we had a great life and a great community of support, and they became part of that. - It's almost like a light bulb lit up. And that sort of gave it more meaning, I guess, to others. And even now, when you meet people and you introduce each other, "This is my husband, Richard" people sort of give it more weight, seemingly, especially recognition, I think. - I think people know what to do with somebody being married. They don't know what to say about somebody being a domestic partner. You know, it sounds like a dry little thing that you file. Who knows what that is? - It's been really interesting in the past. Was he my boyfriend, was he my significant other? Was he my partner? And now he's my husband, so it's been really interesting, because we are legally wed in California, legally married. And so with work or with people I meet, whether they're gay, straight, I know 'em or don't know 'em, there's a real honesty about who I am. Somebody said, "What did you do this weekend?" "Oh, I went with my husband and daughter." And I know people sometimes are taken aback, 'cause I'm saying "husband". - Right. - But it's not a way, it's not a shock. - And also, "partner" was always such a gender neutral word. We can hide behind it, maybe business partner ... - [Schuyler] An almost business transaction, yeah. - "Boyfriend", of course, was pretty clear, because that's a gendered word. - But the depths of that relationship isn't quite known. You say boyfriend, a boyfriend of ... - Trivial. - Yes. And husband's sort of ... It's a strength of relationship, almost, at least in terms of, for you to call someone your husband, to go through the process, means that there's a deep level of affection that's, I don't know ... - It just doesn't, there's no other word that means as deep a relationship. - Exactly. - People know that if I get into an argument with him, he gets into an argument with me, we can't just say, goodbye, we're done and everything's over. We've got a marriage, we've got a daughter ... - [Schuyler] Not to say people don't do that. - I mean, they sound great, but ... - [Sheila] You can't just go like that, right. - You can't run away. - Well, let's talk about your daughter. Now, you said that you had decided to have a daughter through surrogacy before you were married, but after you were together for quite a while. - Yes. It was years of talking and in process before it actually materialized. - Tell me a little about that talking. Why did you decide you wanted to have a child? - For me, I think I can honestly say she was born out of our profound love for one another, and I think, it's sort of an odd statement to say, I almost feel self-conscious to say this, but we went through the surrogacy thing, egg donor surrogate, we used both our sperm, but there were, for me, one component was like, the thought of not having Richard in my life was sort of unimaginable, and I thought if anything were to ever happen, initially this was my thought, given there's an age difference between us as well, and I thought things would happen in a natural progression, I thought how wonderful it would be just to have an extension of him, of somebody that was created out of our love and to be a part of raising a child and, so it just took our relationship to, how can we expand our love for one another? What more can there be to add to our already really blessed life together? But then out of that developed, well, I can't speak for you, but I felt there was probably ... - Yeah, there's also, I, both, he, in his own growing up, and I in my own growing up, thought about having kids. We both separately thought it'd be a great thing to do and of course one day I'll have kids. I used to teach school for some years also up north. And I like kids a lot. And had even talked with some lesbian friends of mine about, this was 25 years ago, about being the father, the biological father, to their child. And so we got in pretty deep in to the conversation, and the logistics, but never completed that. And gradually I just thought, okay, this is never gonna happen, I'll never have a child. And so somehow we started talking about kids. Some friends of ours were having kids, and we, "Yeah, I really like kids." "I like kids too." And then we knew some people who had had children through surrogacy, and that it was a possibility, so like Schuyler said, there were several years of conversation about what it would mean to have a child and then we did it. - And then you did it. And how old is she now? - Three years old. - And what's her name? - Summerin. - Summerin? - Yes. - [Sheila] It's a beautiful name. - Thank you. - So do you feel, it's a funny question, I'm not even sure I know how to ask it. Is it more profound to be a parent or a husband? - Wow. (Sheila laughs) - Profound to be a family unit with a husband and a child. I think it's something that people are still sort of shocked to see and hear about. - You mean, in meeting you. - Yes, both in and out, I think, of the gay community. - My work relationships, they're great with it. There's no question. I mean, we're both very fortunate to live in Los Angeles and have the wider community, have the legal support that we have, but much more, even the emotional support, and so even people that are not in favor of gay marriage or gay parents are hearing about it more and more and more. But for us, it is difficult raising a child, and I taught school for seven years, and we had kids, seven, eight, nine, 10 years of age, that was difficult. But raising a one, two, three, a three year old daughter now, - Every minute, every day. - [Richard] Every minute, all the time. - Interesting, I think for me, as a child you have sort of these ideas of what your life might be. As you get old, as you grow older, and being gay, you sort of rule out certain possibilities. And now to have all these things, though certainly not in the same form I had maybe thought it would be in my youth, a more honest one, and ability to have sort of says a lot, and it's just like this dream that you would never otherwise have believed possible. - Well, I wan to thank you both very, very much for being on the show. - Thank you. - Thank you. - And congratulate you. I mean, for the marriage, for the daughter, for the life. It seems you've done very well and I'm really, really pleased and grateful that you shared it with us. I'm really glad that you shared the time with us as well. And I just want to leave you with one last thought, and that is: gay and lesbian marriage and family - get used to it. (funky guitar music)