Get Used to It: Ep. 158, "DADT - Part 2"

(keyboard punching) (upbeat music) - Hi, welcome to "Get Used To It." I'm Sheila Kuehl, and as always, I take you through this fascinating show. Today it truly is fascinating, because we're talking about, "Don't Ask, Don't Tell." And it's very much in the news these days, as the President indicates that he wants to do something about it, people in Congress talk about it. The LGBT community and our allies working very, very hard to make sure it stays on the front burner. And so I have three guests with some pretty direct experience with "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," but also three activists in our community. And I'm very pleased to welcome Tom Carpenter who is a former Marine captain, and a board member of the Servicemembers Legal Defense Network. Welcome Tom. - Thank you, Sheila. Good to be here. - And Julianne Sohn, my second guest, who is also a former Marine captain, lot of semper fi going on here. - Yes, a lot of semper fi. - And currently an officer in the Los Angeles Police Department. And my third guest is Joseph Rocha, a Navy veteran, though he looks fairly young to be a veteran, but he is a Navy veteran, and now a student at the University of San Diego. So Tom, let's start with you. Let's talk about a little bit about your experience with the military. What happened to you and what led you to want to do some work on behalf of other service members? - I was actually an army brat, and much to my father's chagrin decided to go to the Naval Academy. You can imagine the family uproar over that. Went to the Naval Academy, graduated, and then decided I wanted to go in the Marines. So I went in the Marines, went to infantry training, and then became a Marine pilot. I flew the A-4 Skyhawk, which is single pilot, single engine attack airplane. While I was on active duty, I fell in love with another Marine who was also a pilot. We tried to stay in the service. Both of us loved the Marine Corps. - [Sheila] Was this before "Don't Ask, Don't Tell?" - Yes, this was in the mid '70s. - [Sheila] Right. - The policy back then was if they found out about you, they would discharge you, and you would receive, usually, a less than honorable discharge. We had a good friend of ours who was a major, had come back from Vietnam, highly decorated. He was a Mustang, came up through the ranks, had a silver star, a couple purple hearts. And about a month before he was gonna retire, they found out he was gay, and they threw him out. He got no benefits at all. He seemed old to me at the time. He was probably late 30s, early 40s. And we looked at each other and said, that could be us. And adding to that, there was this issue of integrity. And I think we all heard Admiral Mullen speak last week. And he kind of hit the ball out of the park as far as I was concerned, 'cause he really said what the most important problem with this law is, and that is that it makes people live a lie. So we decided at that point we could no longer live the lie. And both of us left the Marines, went to law school and became lawyers. - Well, it's interesting to me, because no one in my immediate family was in the military. My dad was 4-F but all my cousins were Marines. And there's just this sort of ethic that is part of the training in all the branches, I think, about being forthright, being an honest person, being a good person, and also the sort of the ethic of taking care of each other, and looking out for each other. And I think like a lot of ethical systems, it's more honored in the breach sometimes and certainly where we were concerned, but it must have been a disappointment too. I mean, you know how you'll be treated. How did you feel understanding that you were gay and yet you wanted to be a Marine? - Well, you hit an interesting point and that's each one of the services have core values. And they talk about them constantly. You're trained in them. Basic recruits learn about honor, integrity, courage. And at the academy, of course, we had an honor concept where you didn't lie or cheat or steal. So it was so imbued in you, and it really is such an essential part of anybody who's in the service to be honorable and to tell the truth. I mean, your word is your bond, and you have to put it in a practical reality when you talk to somebody and say, "Listen, we're gonna do a, b and c," and they believe you, and it involves people's lives, you have to tell the truth and you have to be honest. So you were constantly in a tremendous personal conflict. And I think the options available were to give up a career that you were trained for or to live a lie. And it's going on today. That's how I got involved in this fight after I left the service and became a lawyer. My partner died in 1992 and he was a wonderful man, but a conservative Republican. And he kept me very tightly in the closet, so to speak. And when he died, I kind of, as my friend said, knocked the door off its hinges and got involved with Servicemembers Legal Defense Network. - Now tell us, 'cause I'm not sure everyone watching always knows what the organizations are. Tell us a little about it. - Well, let me back up for a second was my initial involvement in the movement was the campaign for military service, which was, I think you knew Tom Stoddard. - [Sheila] Yes. - And Tom ran that. And that was in 1992 when President Clinton announced that he wanted to do away with the ban on gays and lesbian serving. And I went to Washington. And it's kind of interesting. Because I was appointed to the Naval Academy by Strom Thurmond, people said, "Well, you can go down and you can go talk to Strom Thurmond and his people." - [Sheila] About being gay. - About gays in the military. And so I went down to his office and paraded in and there were these three army colonels sitting there. And this young man from South Carolina, and I can't remember his name today, was with me. And we started to talk to these colonels, and it was real apparent to me that we were gonna get nowhere. And lo and behold, one of those colonels was Joe Wilson. "You Lie" Wilson was one of the colonels. I didn't recognize that until I saw him on television. I said, "I know this guy." That's the guy I met in 1992 who was advising Strom Thurmond on this issue. It kinda shows you where we were. So anyway, when we ended up with "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," and that was kind of a debacle, because Sam Nunn, and he was very much against that. And it was kind of a kangaroo court, if you remember how they set it all up. And they had the panels that would show up. They were against lifting the band during the time when the radio, TV people were there. And all the folks that were in favor of open service were brought in when there were no media. It was amazing to watch. But after that happened, some very wise people, Michelle Benecke and Dixon Osborne, two young lawyers, Michelle's a former Army officer, said, "Oh, we're gonna end up with this "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" thing. It's a mess. And we have to be prepared to take care of folks that are brought in under that policy and suffer under it." So they set up Servicemembers Legal Defense Network, and they came to me in 1996, and said, "Would you like to be on the board?" And I said, "Sure, that sounds like something worth doing." - So it's a national board, people in different cities- - National board, right, we have about, I think, 22 board members now. And when I joined the organization, I think our annual budget was about 300,000. And now it's, I think, 2.6 million. And the people have been just wonderful in supporting us. And we've helped 9,000 people in that period. - And is it legal work that is done? - Legal work, yeah. When people get picked up and have problems, they call us, and we either handle their cases ourselves, or we get them referred to Military Defense Counsel, based upon what the case is. And initially, that was our mission. And then about four or five years ago, we changed our strategic plan to include working on repeal, so there was a shift. - [Sheila] Repeal of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell." - Repeal of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell." So there was a shift. We're still doing the legal work, 'cause that's our primary mission, because as you're gonna find out, this stuff is still going on in spite of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" and "the good intentions" that people had back then. People are still being thrown out. So, we've kind of still doing that mission. And now we're doing the mission of repeal. And we've been very involved with lobbying. I think this is be our sixth or seventh year having lobbying days in Washington, DC. That'll be March around our national dinner. And that's where the action is right now. Very exciting time, a very small window. - People ask me, and it was really the same way when I think the feminist movement in the '70s was talking about equality. And one of the major questions was, "How are you gonna be equal if you don't serve our country in the armed forces?" - [Tom] Right. - And there of course was a split, because it's either you're Woody Allen, and you don't wanna be part of a club that would want you, or you don't wanna be part of a club that wouldn't want you. So, what is it that would draw, and I will, of course, I guess have the same question really for my other guests, what would draw a person who knew they were gay to the service? - I think it's the same thing that draws anyone else. I mean, it's a wonderful opportunity to learn about yourself and to mature, and to grow, you're challenged and given tasks and assignments at 18 or 19 or 20 years old that you would never get in the civilian world. I mean, I look at my law firm, and I see these young lawyers and they get coffee and there's the law library and stick, they're like mushrooms. That's what they do. And they're 26, 27 years old. At that age, I was in charge of an entire Marine squadron, as an operations officer with 18 airplanes, millions of dollars. And that opportunity and the educational opportunity, the opportunity to travel, all the same things. And I don't wanna be corny, but a lot of people join because they love this country, and they're patriotic and they see this as a way for them to be part of the fabric of America. And then you also get kids that come from small towns and this is their way to get out, especially gay kids. I mean, if you're from Hot Coffee, Mississippi, and you wanna get outta Hot Coffee, a good way to get out is to join the military and go to Okinawa or Germany or someplace and see the world. So it's all the same. I mean, we're all people and I think we all have the same desires and wanna have the same positive effect. That's what draws people in the military. - Well, Julianne, you were not from Hot Coffee, were you? - [Julianne] No. - From a larger town. - [Julianne] From Los Angeles. - Yes, that's slightly larger. But tell a little bit of your story. - Well, back when I was about to graduate from UCLA, you're confronted with a question, "What are you gonna do when you graduate?" And for me, I always wanted to serve, do public service. And I'm a child of immigrants and I am one of those people who wanted to serve my country. I have so many opportunities here that I don't have growing up in somewhere else. And so I actually joined the Marine Corps. I went through officer candidate school. I actually knew before I joined that I was gay. And I remember very much studying the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy, 'cause I wanted to be a Marine, but I also wanted to understand the policy, so I could be in the Marine Corps and actually adhere to the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy. And for me, when I was very young in my early '20s, I was sitting there thinking I could do that. I could be a great Marine and still follow this policy, 'cause I thought, hey, I wanna be a hard charger. I wanna lead Marines. I wanna serve my country. And I joined, and reality really quickly settled in for me when I saw the toll it took on my personal life, in terms of separating my work life from my personal life. But the interesting thing that I found out when I was serving in Okinawa and later in Parris Island, was that I befriended a lot of junior officers. We were a company grade officers, so lieutenants and captains. And a lot of the officers at that rank, they tend to be the ones who are supposed to enforce something, like "Don't Ask, Don't Tell." And I actually came out to a few of my friends who are officers, and for them, they didn't really care. They were just like, you do a great job. You're a Marine officer. You take care of your Marines, you do your mission, and you're still Jules to us. - So do you think it's a generational thing or... - Fundamentally, I think it is a generational thing. With younger Marines and service members, just in general, you're more exposed to the gay community in the media. People have friends who are gay. And I think that a lot of 'em realize that that has nothing to do with how you do your job. And I had friends who actually went outta their way to make sure that they could protect me, because when I was given orders to go Parris Island, South Carolina, I knew that was ground zero back in the 1980s for the gay and lesbian witch hunts that occurred, where officially the Marine Corps will say about 26 women were discharged under for being gay. This is pre-"Don't Ask, Don't Tell." - [Sheila] Right. - And in reality it was close to 100. Women were forced out because of suspicion of being gay. - [Sheila] Right. - And so when I got orders in 2001 to go to Parris Island, I remember the jokes were still there. Marines were joking about be careful about fourth battalion. - I mean, even before you went there, they were saying be careful of those women. - Even before I went there, they were, like, hey be careful of those women. and not knowing I was one of those women. So, when I went to Parris Island, I actually started to, there were rumors going around. Some of the Marines were saying, well, why is this captain, or at the time I was a first Lieutenant, why is the Lieutenant not have any boyfriends, or... So the rumor mill started to build, and... - Did you have a girlfriend at the time? - I did. I actually lived an hour away from Parris Island. I was in another state. Parris island is in South Carolina. - Talk about separating the parts of your life. - And I lived in Savannah, Georgia. And I would make the commute, which was over an hour so that I could have to adhere to the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy. But the toll was just my blood pressure was going up. It was actually physically taking a toll on me. And I had the choice of either staying in and living in the situation where it's basically, I am living a lie, where my Marines are telling me about what they're doing in the weekends, and I can't. They thought I was the most boring Lieutenant ever. They're like, "She has no life." (Tom and Sheila laughing) And so when I was given an opportunity, in 2003, I actually decided to go to graduate school. - To leave the service. - To leave active duty. - Active duty. - Yes, and so I was still in the reserve status. But it was a hard decision, because I wanted to serve and continue. When you find something that you know you're really born to do, something that you're passionate about. So for me, I was like, "Well, do I suffer through it and wait, do 20 years and hopefully not be found out?" 'Cause at any time, if you're found out, you can get discharged, or do I live a life that's a little bit more healthier, and healthier for the people that I love? Because the other part of this "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" is you're asking your loved ones to go in the closet with you. - [Sheila] Right. - And so I actually decided to go to New York and go to grad school. So, my story doesn't really end there, because as the war continued on in Iraq and Afghanistan, I received orders in 2004 to activate, to go back on active duty to go to Iraq. And I was in New York at the time. And a lot of my friends were like, "Well, just play the gay card, you don't need to serve." And for me that's unacceptable, 'cause I'm a Marine. I'm gonna serve, because I have friends there. And it's just part of my duty when I swore the oath to protect and defend the constitution. So I made the decision to go. And my partner at the time was not happy, so, she had to go back. - I think it's slightly understandable. - Yes. - But still. - And I think a lot of people don't realize the toll it takes on your loved ones, because I had to create a network that didn't exist for her while I was away for support. If I were to get injured or killed, I couldn't have her as my next of kin. Insurance-wise, I had to do verbal agreements with my siblings to make sure she was taken care of, and things like that. And it was actually during my time in Iraq, when I came back, I made a decision to talk about what it was like to serve under "Don't Ask, Don't Tell." - Let's go back a minute, though, to what you just said, because I think it's something that people don't think about very much. When people think about benefits or partner benefits, they generally tend to think of it almost kind of monetarily. So you get some healthcare for your partner, and you get dental care or whatever, but you're really talking about something emotionally so much deeper. I think just the movie that came out this year, "A Single Man," where the opening scene of it, I mean, it takes place in the '50s, and it's a gay man with a partner, long time partner, who gets a call from the partner's nephew that the partner was killed. No one would tell him, because no one knew. And thinking about this same issue, I think it's a very deep issue, 'cause you had to invent a way for her to even know if something happened to you. - It was really tough, because there's no official channels that she would get notified. And I actually made one of my brother, I have three brothers, and they're all supportive of me. And one actually agreed to be the next of kin with he knew that if something were to happen, to immediately contact her. And it was just kind of like creating a network that kind of was a very skeletal version of what would happen that actually the military does create for spouses and partners of straight service members. - So where were you in Iraq? - I was actually in Fallujah and Ramadi back in 2005, so... - And wouldn't you have also an issue there? I mean, I don't know about all the technology, but from what I see on television, on the internet, people have a chance to talk to their loved ones and even see them on sort of computer stuff. - Yes. And you know, it's interesting. One of my friends, I worked with him in Ramadi, and he actually gave me a sat phone to call home. And he had actually warned me that just know that they're monitoring the airwaves, 'cause he knew about me, and he was trying to protect me. So what I did with Fran was we would write kind of in code to each other in emails, "Take care man, I love you" or things like that. And it's really kind of sad when you think about it that you have to change your language. But I think, when I think back to maybe 20 years ago, I think it's something that a lot of people dealt with before. It's very similar. - So we'll come back, 'cause I want to know about your... 'Cause when you came back from Iraq, something else happened, right? - Yes, I actually spoke out on "Don't Ask, Don't Tell." And it was during my work, working with Servicemembers Legal Defense Network and some other organizations. I actually told my story, which I thought was not very revolutionary, just explaining what it was like to live under "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," and the reality of it on not only myself, but my loved ones and my fellow Marine officers, and my Marines as well, 'cause some of my Marines knew as well, and for them it didn't matter. And I received actually a phone call in 2007, so, a few years ago out of the blue from a reserve Colonel based out of Atlanta, Georgia, who basically called me and said, and I thought I was getting activated or something, 'cause I was like, great, here we go again. But instead the phone call was, "I'm calling you 'cause we're investigating you for violating the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy." And then he proceeded to read me my article 31 rights, which are the Miranda warning. And I'm a police officer. So I was so angry, 'cause you read that to somebody you're interrogating who's a suspect in a crime. - A criminal or a suspected criminal. - And actually one of my first phone calls was to SLDN,. I was like... 'Cause I knew some of the people that I'd worked with in the past. But it was quite a struggle, because here my worst nightmare was right there. I was actually assigned a Marine act, or a Marine major, female major who was assigned my case in the military. And I remember we'd talk constantly, 'cause we're fighting to make sure I got an honorable discharge. And she was saying how stupid this policy was and how much we lose when we actually spend the time, people don't realize how much time it takes to investigate somebody under the policy and then how much effort it takes to actually separate somebody who's clearly have already served. They're a part of a unit. They've served overseas. They've deployed. And yet they're spending all this time and energy kicking out people who are completely capable of doing the job. - Well a lot of people think, oh, well that's not happening as much, but... - [Tom] Let me ask her to amplify something. She was on reserves. - Okay, but wait, let's do that when we come back, 'cause I want Joseph to get... But thank you Tom. I'll remember to do that, or you'll remember. - I'll remember. - All right. Joseph, let me just... Just so we have a sort of a complete picture here, tell us about your story, because this is also a brand new story. - Much like Jules was saying, I knew I was gay when I enlisted on my 18th birthday, and I had to make that decision as well. I knew about "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," and I chose country over self. I felt that serving was far more important than those very young years of my sexuality. And I figured I could put that off for however long. Unfortunately, I was far more ignorant than Jules in that I didn't really investigate the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy. And I was unfortunately, like many people now, confident that I would be safe under the policy, that "Don't Ask, Don't Tell." As long as I did my job and as long as I didn't tell anyone, I would be perfectly okay. Unfortunately that wasn't the case. - [Sheila] What happened? - So, I chose- - You were in the Navy, right? - I joined the Navy after, I also tried to get into the Naval Academy, but initially they wanted to know why someone who was so weak in math wanted to go to a math, science, and engineering school. (all laughing) And so I wanted to prove to them why. So I joined the Navy, and I chose overseas. And once overseas, as a master at arms or military police officer, I then wanted to bump it up. I wanted to be a canine handler. I knew that the explosives were the biggest detriment to our soldiers and to the mission out there. So I became part of this unit, thinking that they were elite, that they were stronger, and that they were a family. Unfortunately, I walked into an environment of hazing. I walked into an environment of corruption, and simple things like not wanting to drink, not wanting to gamble, not wanting to solicit prostitution, brought into question my sexuality. And I - - 'Cause real men do that. - Exactly. And that's been my point all along is had I been heterosexual, or had that prostitute been male, on a moral principle, I wouldn't have been any more compelled to have obliged. - [Sheila] Right. - So I stuck to the policy. I was asked and asked and harassed, "Are you gay, are you a fag? You must be queer." And I thought to myself, I know my rights and I know the law, and I just won't tell them. I didn't understand the danger that would put me in. Not telling made it more enticing, made me more of a target. - Where were you stationed? - I was stationed in Bahrain. And a military investigation that's been certified by the Chief of Naval Operations reports that I was bound to chairs, fed dog food, ordered to simulate gay sex on video with military working dogs around, and several other things for an entire period of 28 months when all I wanted to do was serve overseas. - So how did it come to an end? - I eventually did get accepted to the Naval Academy Preparatory School. - [Sheila] You did? - I did. - Wow. - Three tries, and I guess they figured this guy really wants it. And my service had proven that I was a respectable and honorable service member. So I arrived there and it was there that I had to evaluate. I had to evaluate how my service was rewarded, what the rest of my life under this policy would mean, and more so the direct contradiction the policy and the life I was forced to live was to our core values of the military. And I came out there. - Came out while you were at the academy? - I came out while I was at the academy. They put me on restriction for about two months while they figured out what to do with me. And here's where I got my education in "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," because the first problem was, does he fit under the enlisted policy or the commission policy? So it is far more forgiving for officers because of the money that's invested in them. And so there, that was highlighted to me, the hypocrisy of the policy. So it really doesn't matter that you're gay, because if you're valuable enough, we might want to keep this quiet. And that was the option that was put to me, was based on your service, based on your potential, take it back and you can go on to the Naval Academy. And that was a direct contradiction of our core values. There was no honor, no courage, and no commitment to what I had decided was right. And I lost my life dream just for refusing to deny who I am and I was discharged. - And so what are you, I mean, you're all clearly in your own way, spokespeople now, and it's probably as honorable as what you might have done in the service. What are you doing now? And what are you thinking of doing with this understanding that you have? - Sure. I am a full-time student, because I understand that when we repeal this policy, if I don't have a degree to make a difference, it won't be much good. I won't be much good to the cause. So, I am a full-time student. I'm a junior, and my graduation will align with a potential repeal a year from now. And originally I wanted to become an officer for me. I wanted to... It was my own dream. And now, after having spent the past six to eight months, full-heartedly dedicated to educating people on why this policy hurts the entire country and everyone, gay, lesbian, straight, male or female, I understand that I feel a responsibility now, that if I had anything to do with the repeal, then I need to more so get that commission for our young men and women in uniform who are going to be affected directly when we repeal. So they're going to need an inside man to make sure that the things that occurred to me when I was in the Middle East don't happen to them. The repeal can't be left alone to some of the hands that are not our best friends or our allies. - Well, it's very interesting to me, because, and I guess would seem a little obvious in a way, but each of you has said, you believed really in the core values, and you still do. And you're an officer in the LAPD. - [Julianne] Yes. - People think of it as a quasi-military setting. Is it different? - It is different, because the LAPD currently recruits at gay pride festivals. They march in the parades. They actually have a non-discrimination policy that includes sexual orientation. And well, the captain I work for right now in the division that I'm at actually has gone out of his way to make sure I can do what I do in my spare time, which is speak out on this, on the impact "Don't Ask, Don't Tell." The police department has been great. I know the history in the past was not so great. - For anybody. - For anybody, for any department. And I feel very lucky to be with the department now, the department of today, because they definitely acknowledge that what matters is you get the mission done, you take care of your fellow officers, and you go home at night to your family. And I think that's, fundamentally, what repealing "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" is about, is the realization that what matters is mission, and then taking care of your people, your fellow soldiers, sailors, Marines, coast guardsmen, airmen, and getting home to your family. - Tom, you wanted to explicate something that Julianne said. - Yeah, I did. I think what's very interesting about Jules's case is the fact that she was in reserves when she was discharged. She wasn't on active duty. She was a civilian basically, in the individual ready reserve where you don't even have to drill, and they called her back just to get rid of her. And the contradictory situation that most people don't realize in the first Gulf War, President Bush, the first, issued a stop loss order. And they stopped throwing gay people out during that war. - Right, stop loss is... Explain more. - Yeah. - I think people, if anybody saw the movie, they might understand that it's like, you've gotta go back even though you didn't think you have to. - Right, what stop loss does is it essentially freezes in place people that were going to retire or get out of the service under their contract, and for the duration of the period, usually it's a war period, nobody leaves the service. And what they did in the first Iraq War was stop loss, gay people. Now they just issued a stop loss in the second war and they didn't include gay people this time, which is very interesting. I'm not sure exactly what the reasoning was, because probably we made a lot of noise about the fact that after the first war, when they were finished using the people, then they got rid of them, which was hypocrisy, the height of hypocrisy. - Talk to me a little bit about what's wrong with "Don't Ask, Don't Tell." Go ahead. - If I may, I think that the two things that are most important to understand is one, there's this fear behind what happens when we repeal "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," or what are our motives, what do we want. What is it that we want that we don't have now? And what we want is basic job security and a dignified life. And I think that most people can really understand that. We want to make sure that all of our service and all of our training, can't be thrown out over an email or a phone call. And we want to live like human beings and not like criminals when we're out serving our country. And I think that a Congressman just recently on CNN, he's a straight Congressman who said, "I am more concerned with whether our troops can fly straight, sail straight, and shoot straight than whether they are straight." - And do you know who said that before him? - I don't actually. - Barry Goldwater. - Barry Goldwater. - Barry Goldwater, whose grandson is gay, was, as I know you know, ran for president, didn't get it that time, but very well respected true conservative, not like people who call themselves conservatives now who don't wanna save things, but wanna blow 'em up. But I think people have a hard time understanding what's wrong with "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," maybe not much of my audience, but still, it sounds like, what difference, why do you have to... This is what people say in public, why do you have to talk about it? - I think, fundamentally, you have to talk about it, 'cause a lot of people don't realize that this is an issue that's not just a gay issue. It's a women's issue. It's an equal rights issue. I like to point out a lot of times with the impact of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" on women is actually pretty significant. Actually for fiscal year 2008, which I'm one of the discharge numbers in that, women made up about 33% of the discharges in fiscal year '08, but we only make up about 15% of the overall military. And the two years before that, I saw the unreleased numbers from '07 and '06, that show that women were 40 to 50%, depending on which service, were impacted by "Don't Ask, Don't Tell." So it's a women's issue as well. And I sit there and I go, you know, a lot of... When I told that to women's groups, they're surprised that they don't know about this. And it's just something that you can't let people forget about it. You have all these young men and women who are in on active duty right now who are gay, who are risking their lives every day, who can't speak out. And that's why we're speaking out. And I think fundamentally there's a problem with a policy that says, actually, "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," allows gays to serve in the military, but you can't talk about it. You can't say anything about it. So we're gonna take your service, and you're gonna risk your life. But the instant you say something, or somebody says something that you're gay, that we can kick you out. It's ridiculous. It's so completely hypocritical. - And the argument for us not telling is, well, it would create animosity or it would endanger us. But "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" perpetuates the idea that there is fundamentally something wrong with the homosexual, or that our bravery somehow is less brave, or that our service is somehow less worthy. I think that, Admiral Mullen said that it's about integrity. Absolutely, it's about integrity and it's about honor. There's gay blood on the grounds of Iraq and Afghanistan. And there are policies to deal with, like we were speaking earlier, there are policies to deal with sexual misconduct. So if this is an issue of sexual misconduct, then we already have policies to deal with that. We don't remove an entire demographic of highly skilled, highly critical service of gay men and women in our military because of this idea of sexual misconduct. We have policies for that. And it's really, even for our veterans, when I went to DC and I saw veterans lining back to World War II who are gay and lesbian, it was so humbling. And it made me so sad, that they're not honored the same, and that their service is not the same. And that's what it comes down to with Admiral Mullen saying integrity, both the integrity of the individual to live with integrity and for the institution to perform and to stand for integrity, because this policy is a direct contradiction of the core values of our military. And that's why, I'm sure everyone here today and myself will always say that we love our military and we love our country. We're not out to attack neither the military or our country, but the policy that is embarrassing both. - I think a good example of what's gonna happen is our allies. The British and the Australians and the Canadians are probably culturally similar to us. And the Israelis are in a constant state of war, and they did away with their policies. The Brits were forced to do it. The Canadians, the Israelis and the Australians did it voluntarily. And you hear these fear mongerings. The military's gonna fall apart. It's gonna collapse if we let the 66,000 gay people that are in the military today come out. Well, at first they're all not gonna come out. You're not gonna have gay pride parade down the main highway of Fort Bragg. That's not gonna happen. These people just wanna be safe. And you look at the British and what happened to them. All these horrible things they said were gonna occur. People were gonna resign. They were gonna have problems with recruitment, on and on it went. And then one day, they simply announced that it was done, and the British military leadership, and this is key, key right now, stood up and said we're gonna make this happen. And they did. Nobody resigned. The military didn't collapse. The Canadians, the Australians, they're over with us in Iraq and Afghanistan fighting side by side. There have been foreign gay military leaders that have led American troops in combat. And they go on and do a superb job. So it's just fear mongering. It's just totally false. And they're just putting up these barriers. They raise one thing after another. And if you look at it closely, they're red herrings. It's just one red herring after another. - Well, discrimination is a very powerful tool for people that don't have any other way to seem better than other people. - [Tom] A fear, so... - It's all that it's for. I mean, if it wasn't about sexual orientation, if we were all exactly the same except for the size of our ears, then there would be good ears and bad ears. I mean, it's just setting up a hierarchy so that you can have a better and a worse. And even to hear the three of you say, in a sense, there's nothing to this. We are just as good, et cetera. It's hard for me to listen to, because of course we're just as good. And to have you have to have gone through this, what you said about women, it's been very interesting to me for 30 years, because the antagonism to women serving at all, was helped a lot by "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," because any woman who wanted to serve must be a dyke, because why would you wanna be in the military? And if you were accused of that, you would be thrown out. So what a great way to keep women from serving, even though a lot of people have said, oh no, no, no. - What's really exciting to me is, while I would love to see a repeal tomorrow, I welcome this 12-month period of education. We are a very large country, and I really think that it's exciting to me to see these useless arguments for why we should maintain the repeal, get the exposure to the national public for why they don't have a leg to stand on, why saying that we're in two wars is ridiculous, because it's more imperative now that we not lose troops, that we're in an economic recession, well, therefore we can't afford this policy, or even better yet, that it will affect unit cohesion, and there is nothing that can prove it. On the other side, there's 53 years of military reports that will say that it's not affecting unit cohesion, that it won't affect unit cohesion. And we'll get one more report that will solidify that. - [Sheila] Right. - My concern about the timing though, is the political aspect of it. I agree with you. And I think what we're seeing is that the military leadership, in order to get buy in has had to say, we're gonna have this 12 or 18 month period to study and make sure that implementation occurs in an orderly fashion. And a group that I'm involved with actually has written a paper about implementation. It took us maybe a month to write it. And we've answered all these questions about what do you do with the barracks and the marriage and the dependence and all that sort of stuff. All those questions are answered. They're pretty straightforward. But my concern is about where we sit with the Congress. On the House side, we have 187 co-sponsors of a bill called Military Readiness Enhancement Act. We're looking pretty good on the House side. Where we have problems now is in the Senate, particularly the Senate Armed Services Committee. And in order to get a bill through the Senate, I think we all have seen what has occurred with healthcare, and I'm afraid we're setting ourselves up for healthcare two in the form of repeal of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell." And where we need to be is working on the Senate Armed Services Committee. And sadly we have about five or six Democrats that aren't even on board with us. They're starting with Jim Webb, who's a Naval Academy graduate, Jack Reed, former Marine, Jack Reed, who's a West Point graduate, Army, Ben Nelson, Bill Nelson, K Hagen, Robert Bird and Evan Bayh. We don't even know where they stand, and that's where we have to focus, because we've gotta get this bill into the Senate and on the floor and voted on. And I think we need to do it before the midterm. And my sense is that the White House, even though the president has stood up and spoken eloquently about what he wants to do, isn't pushing as hard as they really need to be pushing to get this done. And the vehicle for it is the Defense Authorization Bill, 'cause that was the vehicle that was used in 1993 to create "Don't Ask, Don't Tell." And with that particular bill, then you're not facing the filibuster problem. In order for this to be removed from the bill, then it's kind of a reverse filibuster. You had 60 votes to tear it out. So, that's the vehicle. And we have a very small window here. If we don't get this done for the midterm elections, then I'm fearful that it's gonna be another two years, another five years, another 10 years, another 10, 15,000 people. That's what I'm most concerned about, from the timing situation. - Well, Evan Bayh will be gone and probably not replaced by someone even as good as he is on some of the issues. - I found out just yesterday. I called to see is Levin gonna appoint somebody to fill Kennedy's seat? And the answer is no. So you've got a reduced, on the democratic side there's 15 Democrats and 11 Republicans in the Senate Arm Service Committee. So now you got that seat gone. And then Bayh goes, so you're even drawing down in a smaller vote, assuming all the Republicans vote against it. I think Susan Collins is probably a good chance of voting with us. So it's very, very close, and a lot of people in our community are saying, "Oh, this thing is done." Well, I tell you what folks? This is the first fire, this first salvo of this battle happened last week when we heard from Admiral Mullen and Secretary Gates. And I thought that John McCain was going to have a coronary. I don't know if you looked at him, I saw the steam coming out of his ears. - And he was waving those signatures, like a Bible. - A thousand signatures, the flag officer document, which I've looked at those flag officers and the average age is 77. And none of them, or few of them have ever served under "Don't Ask, Don't Tell." And clearly none of them ever led a small unit. They're senior people. - Well, would you know we always face opposition? It's not that we don't. And the political system is the political system. And the armed services committees were always some of the most conservative on both sides of the aisle, the thought being, that's where you put people, because you don't want them on Health and Human Services from the committees, because they'll just cut welfare, so might as well put them where they can do red meat kind of armed services stuff. So are you saying there are things that people can do? - Well, absolutely. Pick up the phone. We're lucky, we're in California, and our senators are clearly with us. All the Democrats in the Congress have signed on to the Military Readiness Enhancement Act except two from the central valley. We have none of the Republicans. So I think it's a lobbying effort. People need to call their members. They need to call the White House. They need to email the White House. They need to do the same thing on the armed services committees, on both sides and say this is the time, we really need to do this. The President is, as the Commander-in-Chief, has said that he wants to do this. The Secretary of Defense and the Chairman of Joint Chief of Staff has said it. So let's get it done. And we've gotta bring as much pressure to bear. We need to also look at our allies, labor unions and people that traditionally make up the democratic coalition to... - Women's organizations. - Women's organizations to bring pressure to bear, because now's the time to do it. And if we don't, we're gonna lose this opportunity. - It's something that almost sounds like so obvious we don't even bother thinking about is we really need to get our veterans, our gay veterans on board on this and get their visibility, because that's really what legitimizes this entire movement, is their service is what, is the most powerful defense to the repeal of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell." - And the other side of that is also, and I have so many straight allied friends who are veterans as well, and getting them to speak out. My younger brother is an enlisted Marine, he's a veteran, and he speaks on my behalf. And it's making people realize that this is an issue that goes beyond, 'cause a lot of times people try to put us in a box, like saying, "Oh, this is a minor, only 13,000 people have been kicked out on a 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell," but the impact of this policy are, it ripples through the entire community. And you don't know how many don't enlist. I know so many people on my department, police department who didn't go into the military because of this policy. You don't know how many people don't go in, and you don't know how many gay service members leave willingly because they couldn't, for instance, like Tom, because of the policies that are in place. Those are uncaptured numbers that people don't talk about. - Well, it's an interesting point, because all of you also made the point that you thought that this was not just a problem for the gay and lesbian community who were in danger in the service, but also for the country. And I wonder if you, 'cause you touched on that just now, in terms of what is the value of the repeal to the United States? - I think Jules kind of touched on it. The estimate from the Urban Institute is that we have an additional 45,000 troops in the armed services. That's a good thing, particularly looking at the way that the military's so overstretched with these constant deployments, rotations, no dwell time, which means back with your family. I mean, if I was a straight guy, I'd say, yeah, bring 'em on. Let me stay home with my wife and kids. 45,000 more people, maybe I won't have to go over the sandbox again. So it's a good thing. And then you take a look at the quality of the people that have been thrown out. We look at numbers, we say, 13,500, 14,000, it's just numbers, but I've met a lot of these people, and that's what keeps me going. They're good, hardworking, talented, well-trained, well educated people. The linguists we've lost, just look at 50 linguists. And if they'd been around on 9/11, and been listening instead of being thrown out of the military, think of the benefit that our country would have from their service. And the sad thing is a lot of these folks leave the military and then they go across the street, they join the State Department and the CIA, or a private corporation, and they make three or four times as much money, and they go back and they sit in the same office doing almost the same job, but not in a uniform. And as a taxpayer, I say, this is insane. I mean, it's absolute insanity. And I think you just look at it, if you just sit back and look at it and say, "We need these people, they're trained and they're qualified." And the money, I mean, we don't even need to talk about how much money has been lost. And it's the time, it's the experience that you can't recapture. You bring in a brand new soldier, airman or Marine, coast guardsman, sailor, and it takes a long time to get them up to speed. And when you lose that sort of quality, it takes forever to recapture. - And especially with an all volunteer service. I mean, I think a great many of my friends were very happy that there wasn't a draft for these military actions. And the way of course you've maintained that is by allowing people who really want to serve, to serve. And I think another point that you've made is that by kicking people out, turning them away, frightening them away from even starting in the first place, you're cutting down your numbers so significantly that even though it hasn't led to a draft, it makes, in the case where we have more than one war going on at a time, it makes it more likely that you would have to do something. - Exactly, and you're hitting on the topic of numbers in that while there's such a small demographic of people who can make it through the bootcamp, the successful American bootcamp experience of getting out and still having such deep rooted ignorance and hatred towards other people that they can't work alongside women, minorities or gay members, that I think that it's far more beneficial to this country and to national security to rid that small demographic of people out of our military than the large demographic- - So you think there ought - of people. - to be a bigot ban, a ban on bigots. - Yeah, absolutely. (indistinct) - [Tom] No idea. - For Senator McCain and Duncan Hunter and all these proponents of unit cohesion, those are the detriments to unit cohesion, not our men, not our women, not our minorities and not our gay and lesbian service. - And to just add to what Joe was saying, that those types of people don't get hired in the civilian sector because of their views. You have to be able to, just in society, be able to work with other people. And it just seems like, why is it the military is allowing all these concessions for that small group of people? - And it really is a generational thing. You hit on that earlier. The younger generation is the Will and Grace generation. Many of them have gay friends and as more and more people have come out of the closet, we've become more accepted in society. I remember, you remember when we first started practicing law there were no women judges, and you go to a law firm there were no women. - I was thrown out of court as an attorney because I was wearing a pants suit. - [Tom] Pants suit, yeah. - Judge sent me home to change my clothes. And that was not the middle ages. - And I remember a judge addressing a female lawyer as Missy, and I was aghast. - Watch your tone, Missy. - Right, Missy, exactly. - Maybe it was me, I don't know, might've been long time. I was being told to watch my tone sometimes. - Yeah. Yeah. But it is generational. And I think some of these senior people think they're protecting people that don't really need to be protected. I mean, it's just a claim that really is not based in fact. - I really like bringing it. My experience with advocating for the repeal has really brought it back to me, to the Harvey Milk concept of, for as long as we're an alien demographic of people that no one has any attachments to, we won't succeed in anything and we won't gain equality. But when people realize that we're taking the bullet, that we're willing to take the bullets for them in combat, that we are their brothers, their sisters, their cousins, that's when we move ahead. And that's what, like I said, that veteran service, that's what legitimizes our cause and our call for action. - Well, it's interesting because all of you came out. You have all said, "I couldn't not come out." It was really a matter of personal integrity, and we have different generations here. And that really when we first put together National Coming Out Day, that was the point, really was you ought to know how many people you already know that are gay or lesbian. - And I think the military is like a classic catch-22, is that they don't wanna know who the gay people are, and they don't know who the gay people are, because they're good performers. And you look at that society, and all you have to do is look at African Americans and women, and how those two groups of people in our society have advanced so much since integration in 1948 with African Americans and women finally getting to do non-traditional roles in the '70s. - In the military. - In the military. - And same thing with gay people. They don't wanna know we're there, the bigots we're talking about, because they're gonna have to confront us, and they know that we're as good as them. And this military of ours is the most professional in the world. I mean, we all know that. And it really is an insult to these young men and women to say, "Oh, you can't serve next to a gay person." - Well, not only that, but it's really what Joseph said. It's about invisibility, the silence equals death aspect of it is a catch-22. That is, if they're gay, you kick them out. And if they're gay and they keep quiet, they might have saved your life, but you don't know they're gay, and therefore you can't have an attitude about what gay people are really like. - After I came out at the Naval Academy Prep School, I can't put into words what it was like to listen to the commanding officers say, "Take it back and stay." I couldn't believe it. And that's really what... If anything, that's the moment that solidified my decision. Why? I'm just as qualified. I'm not committing a crime. I'm not having sex in public. I'm not bringing this to work. Why should I take... No, I can't deny. I won't deny that I'm a homosexual. And I won't bring it to work, but I won't go on. And they brought it up. At that point, it was a decision. Do I leave on my own terms and be evaluated on my service in the Middle East, or do I wait until I'm a midshipman or an officer and have my entire life ruined over someone seeing me on a lunch date, going into my journal, or reading my emails? - Well, I think this has been a wonderful show, and I'm so grateful to all of you for being on it, because I think people sort of know a little about "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," they're reading about it in the paper, but to really put the faces of the people who have not only suffered under the policy, but taken the reins in their own hand and done something about it, and I think people watching are proud of all three of you and very grateful for your service and also for your honesty. And I'm really grateful to you for being with us for this show. I'm sure that you'll wanna do some more research on the things that you've heard. We're gonna put up some websites for you to look at at the end of the show. But what I have to say to you today is, gay and lesbian people in the military, the ban will be overturned, I have no doubt about it. So America, get used to it. (bright music)