Get Used to It: Ep. 138, "Voices of Our Lives: Tom Ammiano"

(typewriter clicks) (groovy guitar music) - Hi, welcome to Get Used To It. I'm Sheila, Kuehl. I'm your guide through these hour shows about issues of interest to and about the LBGT community. And today I've got a great guest for you, Tom Ammiano, who is currently a supervisor in the city and county of San Francisco. Longtime activist, and you know, like all of us, about a hundred other things in his life. So welcome, Tom. - [Tom] Hi, thank you for having me. - Thank you so much for being here. This is one in a series of shows that I've done where I'd like to just one on one interview somebody, about, kind of about their life, you know? - [Tom] Sure. - We kind of see people the way they are at the moment and get kind of a snapshot. I don't want a snapshot. I want a movie. - [Tom] Okay. - Kind of, you know. - [Tom] Yeah. - So starting at the beginning, where'd you grow up and what was it like? - The wonderful Garden State of New Jersey. (Sheila laughs) Interestingly, you know, as we're filming this, Ken Burns' epic is on TV, - [Sheila] Right. and it did bring back some memories. Cause I was born in the forties in Newark, New Jersey, and even though I was only four or five, when the war was happening, distinctly remembered my uncle Frankie coming back from the war, flinging open the door, putting his duffle bag down and saying "I'm home." And my mother dropping the pot of spaghetti and screaming. (both laugh) - Spaghetti, let me see. Does that mean you came from an Italian family? - Yeah, there was no Chef Boyardee for us, you know, this was all from scratch. It was a nice growing up in that, it was a poor neighborhood, but everybody kind of looked out for each other. They called it "Down Neck," which I think was the configuration of a part, a little ismus in Newark. And then we moved to another town, but I do remember people yelling out the window, "Frankie, get in here before I kick your butt," you know, or somebody squealing on me, you know, to my mother. - [Sheila] Uh huh. - So, but economically there was a lot of stresses. My father drove a cab for many years, and people often say, and they probably say this to you too. What's your interest in healthcare? You know, well duh, But personally - [Sheila] Like who had it? - Yeah, that's right. And I remember when my father died, there was like absolutely nothing. And my poor mother, she went down there, and she ran in and raved to the owners of the taxi company. And we didn't know any better, we were kind of embarrassed, you know that she did that. But of course, in retrospect, Ma you were right. Her anger was totally. So we, we practiced this. There was no money even for a burial. So we practiced this thing, the Italians called the (Italian phrase) So you come to the funeral home, and you got a user friendly funeral director, and people would sign a book. I remember guys with gold in their teeth, and coming, you know, and with the cigar smoke signing. And then they would $100 or $10. And that paid for the burial and paid for the funeral. And I think my mother got a little kitchen set out of what was left over. - Sure. - But those are the memories you don't lose. And then you say, you know, the politics. So they always say politics is personal. - [Sheila] Sure. - So even unconsciously, you know, working on healthcare was something that, you know, you and I both wanted to do for, for reasons. - Well, I think it's even more personal in a way in, just in terms of how you feel about the rest of the world. - [Tom] Yeah. - You know, do you want to help the rest of the world, or do you feel like, well, nobody helped me, so I'm not gonna help anybody. - [Tom] Yeah. - And you know, sometimes it can be the same upbringing. - So I don't know how, where the variation comes in. - Yeah. - You know, I had the Catholic school thing happening. - You went to Catholic school? - Yeah, you know the, yeah. And you know, it was very repressive and you know, you always had that outsider feeling. Cause I knew I was gay, you know, there's no like epiphany when I was 35, or at 60 looking at my two kids, and saying why I might, I mean I knew. And I think everybody else knew too, which was a little difficult with the running away. - [Sheila] Running away from school? - Oh the, the bullies, et cetera. - [Sheila] Oh yeah. I always had my mouth though. You know what I mean, that's how I fought back. But every everything happened that, and I think the terrible thing for a lot of us was we know you couldn't tell your family, cause you were ashamed, you know? - [Sheila] Right, right. - But I always liked friends. I was always very social. And the one thing that Catholic schools did do for me is the, that sense of community. So you knew right away when, when something was unjust, maybe you didn't know the concept, but you knew it was wrong for my mother to be fired from the phone company. She was a little cafeteria worker. "Hi, my name is Susie," which wasn't her name, her name was Vincenza, but you know. - [Sheila] Right, but who can say Vincenza? - She was let go because cosmetically her teeth looked bad, but of course they had no health benefits. They had no dental benefits. - And she was Why was she let go? - Never made the connection Because you know, they just said you have bad teeth. And so it's not attractive. You know, if you work in a cafeteria. - [Sheila] Did you have siblings? - Yeah, I have an older sister and an older brother and then a younger sister. My older brother and sister are both in their seventies, and they're very New Jersey, and they're very supportive. And then my younger sister as well. And she's the one who said, "you gotta say hello to Zelda. " (Sheila laughs) Cause she's the total TV, you know, she's in her fifties, but she remembers everything. - Well, you know, they reran those shows. - [Tom] Yeah, that year. - So everybody, I always say to people clearly you're not old enough to have seen them, you know, in the original. So that's sort of my standard line. - Yeah. - So you went to all through high school in New Jersey? - Yeah. Immaculate Conception, lots of jokes about that. I had a lot of material when I did stand up, you know, based on. - [Sheila] We'll, get to your being a stand up. - On the background. And then I got, I got a scholarship to all boys, Catholic university, Seton Hall University. It was a day hop school. It was very, very kind of industrial academic. I mean, we actually had a voice in diction class the first year because people, my friend, we said "woym" and "boyd" and no, you weren't making that up. You know? So it was like a blackboard jungle, but it was supposed to be college. You know, but the calibration wasn't quite, this was not Yale, Harvard or, you know. And there were priests there, and obviously there were some who were very, very effeminate and people made jokes about them. There was a divinity school there, which we called Sally's Alley. So it wasn't like gay stuff wasn't on people's minds, it certainly was on mine. It's an all boys school. - [Sheila] Right. - And they always told you, you know, you were gonna go to hell if you didn't do this or didn't do that. So actually, you know, Catholics, we have the confession, like you can expiate it. So I actually went to confession. I actually said, oh, I like boys to the priest. I thought the lightning bolt was gonna come down, and so he gave of course the generic advice. "Well, put that out of your mind, find a nice young woman who will then become psychotic, marry her and have kids." - If you don't become psychotic first. - So I said, okay, that's my resolve. And I walked out and a guy walked by me and they saw me And he had just the nicest butt I had ever seen. (Sheila laughs) And I knew right then. Forget that Father. - [Sheila] Forget the advice. - Yeah. - [Sheila] Three more Hail Mary's it'll be fine. - So that was my, you know, so after that it was, how do I deal with this and how do I get outta here? - Get outta here? - Out of New Jersey, out of the Catholic religion. - So did you, was there anything that happened to you in college though that gave you sort of a thought, gee, I'd like to do that when I get outta school or something? - [Tom] Well this scholarship - Like a profession? - [Tom] allowed me to have a little slack on working in the summer, you know, because since the tuition was paid for, and I fell into this area of, I worked at camps for the handicapped and it doesn't sound like much, but I left that little block in New Jersey and I went to the Catskills and it was called Camp Jened. And the campers were all disabled either in chairs or, you know, had muscular dystrophy or what have you, but the other counselors were from New York or occasionally from maybe England and it just opened up everything. It wasn't even that I had to go to the Antarctic to - [Sheila] Right - It was great. And they didn't judge me as much as I was judged in Jersey about being, you know, Little Nelly and little fast talking. And it just was wonderful. And I knew that I would have to do something similar the rest of my life, even though I knew my family wouldn't understand. So I thought maybe I would get involved in working with, with the handicapped. And that took me to California. - How was that? There was a Camp Easter Seal out there. And the guy who I worked with in New York state said, why don't you all come out? And I said, wow, what an opportunity it was, you know, only 19 or 20. - Had you been to California before? - No, I never thought, it was like, you know, oh going to paradise. And I took a Greyhound Bus and you know, Italians, you know, they're very family oriented. So my mother felt like I was leaving forever, she put on a black dress, and she wave from the porch cause the Greyhound Bus stopped right at the corner and it was three and a half days. I think it cost 40 bucks to do that in those days. - So all by yourself, not with a friend? - [Tom] No, no. - Although I bet you talked to everybody on the bus. - Well, yeah, so I was very shy, really, really painfully shy. And we, the bus broke down in Iowa, you know, one of those long square states and it was 90 degrees. And one of the people I came across, after I said hi and everything, asked me what country I was from, you know, (both laugh) but I landed in San Francisco at the Greyhound Bus Depot. - [Sheila] Wow. Which is big in gay lore, you know, gay male lore and immediately got cruised and you know, knew something - [Sheila] Sure different. - So I went, I came back and finished my degree and then I joined the Peace Corps. See always this thing to move, to get out, get out. But having no money, trying to figure out - What got you thinking about joining the Peace Corps? - Well, idealism, it was Kennedy years. It was a very romantic and it was also an ouch that could be paid for. - [Sheila] Right. - And they sent me to Indiana to train, to go to Thailand, - I can see the connection. - [Tom] Yeah, this is good. Go to what I, you know, I pronounce it Thailand. This is I did until I learned better. And here I am in the Midwest and everybody's very white and certainly not Italian. But you know, there were a lot of class issues that if, if I didn't know them before the other candidates for Thailand really did have more upper class background. See, this was more of a, when you think of a, more of a leisure thing, you know - To go into the beach? - [Tom] Yeah. And I didn't, so you got deselected. It was like this horrible word, bad enough I'm struggling with who I am. You got des- They said, "oh, it's cause you have asthma." But you know, I knew it was cause I was different, whatever the difference was gonna be. And so rather than go back to Newark, which would've been profoundly depressing, I hopped on yet another Greyhound. Greyhound is a motif now. - So you, you joined the Peace Corps, but they didn't send you to a foreign country. - [Tom] Right I got deselected. - Deselected. - [Tom] Big D. - That must have been a real kind of wrenching thing. - It was a downer man. I just felt, I mean I cried my eyes out and I thought I have no alternatives. I'm not going back to Newark. I will die. Cause the family doesn't understand that at the time. So I came back to California, and then started at, had a variety of jobs and lived in San Francisco. That was about '62, '63. And went to San Francisco state, - [Sheila] Uh huh. - And got a master's in Special Ed - [Sheila] Uh huh. - And thought that I would start my teaching career after I did something. And so then I found something else to do that would take me out of the country. And it was called International Voluntary Services. God love them. IVS. It was a private Peace Corps. The Peace Corps was actually modeled on this. - [Sheila] Uh huh. - But the people came from all over the world rather than just America. And it was Quaker based. And it was in of all places, Vietnam and Laos. And the Vietnam War was becoming very, very prominent - [Sheila] Right. - The 66. And I think they were really desperate. You know, one time I actually read the interview of me, where the guy said, "he was a strange little fellow." (both laugh) - That was his assessment of you. - Who couldn't sit down. And other little things that could be very telling, I don't know if he was doing it naively, but I think because nobody wanted to volunteer to go to Vietnam. - [Sheila] Right. - So I got selected. And so that opened up a whole new world. I was there for two years. - [Sheila] Where were you in Vietnam? - [Tom] I was in a small town called Ninh Hòa, and then I was in a bigger town called Nha Trang. - [Sheila] So what part of Vietnam was that? - It's central. And I mean, we spent time in Saigon as well, - [Sheila] Uh huh. - And I got very politicized. I mean, I really saw it was a civil war, you know, and never, didn't hang out much with the army. There was a big gay scene there that I kind of fell into. You know, the Vietnamese my Vietnamese friends said, "oh, there's no homosexuality in Vietnam." The French. - [Sheila] Like in Iran, I heard it announced the other day. (Tom laughs) Absolutely assured. - [Tom] The French brought it. The French brought it. - [Sheila] French brought it. (both laugh) - They must have been in Newark because I don't know where I got it. And so I came back to Vietnam after you know, the famous Tet, all that happened while I was there - [Sheila] That's right, the Tet offensive. You know, it's like, PeeWee's big adventure in some ways. And I have a lot of white guilt about it, cause my Vietnamese friends could were suffering and I could always leave. - [Sheila] Right. - And you know, in fact IVS got very politicized because a lot of conscientious objectors joined IVS, hoping that perhaps they wouldn't have to be drafted. I was already 4-F for, you know, asthma and things like that. It was easy to be what they called 4-F cause Vietnam wasn't prominent yet it was on the back. Kennedy was still alive. - [Sheila] Right. - You know, and you know, let's face it. A lot of African Americans, a lot of Latinos they got drafted first. - [Sheila] That's who went. I was there in 69 with the USO. - [Tom] Oh my gosh. I mean sort of at the height, one of the heights of the war. - [Tom] Yeah, yeah. - So you're certainly absolutely right about who was there. And of course they accepted every, exempted, everybody who was in college. And that drew the line right there as well. - [Tom] Then you became 1-A or something and you know, people would, and I think Kennedy while, while he was still alive, obviously passed it. If you were married, you wouldn't be drafted. Everything was starting to diminish. - Right. - And then boom, you know, it blossomed into what we know as the tragedy of Vietnam. - So what happened after you came back? - I certainly said I was not gonna live in New Jersey. So - [Sheila] So you had your masters, but you had gone, said to the Peace Corps. Alright don't take me, I'll go here. - [Tom] Yeah. - That was good. - [Tom] Yeah that was good. I mean, I was lucky, you know, was that terrible fluorescent lighting and state colleges I was at San Francisco state and it's, you know, nine o'clock and I'm looking there's that little brochure would you like to go to Vietnam? Only I would've, you know, been driven to it. So I came back and I, I started to teach and I got, you know, San Francisco in that time. And of course the, the west coast was just on fire with the civil rights movement and the feminist movement and God the gay movement. Oh yeah. You know, so, and San Francisco was a great place to be for that. And I kept my ties to my Vietnamese friends. There was a program where, you know, kids who had been wounded, and my Vietnamese was terrible, but you know, had a big New Jersey inflection in it. So it was wonderful. You know, I, and you had energy. I, I could teach in the day, be active at night at the discos and then also be politically active that's when I met Harvey Milk, or knew of Harvey Milk, you know. The Castro was also on fire in a whole different way, Flaming. - [Sheila] Right. I should say, you know. - [Sheila] Well, but it it's interesting too, because this is pre AIDS right? - [Tom] Oh yeah. There was no thought that there was a venereal disease every so often and it would be a joke and you'd go to the clinic. - So when you say politically active, sort of what was that like or about? - [Tom] Well, it was, very heady because you're still a little intimidating, you know, you're a public school teacher. - [Sheila] Sure. - But you know, you saw these things that were not great in the gay community. You saw the bars really, You know, they used to have this silly thing, no shoes, no open shoes, no hats, no something else. One was against blacks. I mean, the connections were very weird. One was against women. And then if you didn't look right, they'd ask for three picture IDs, you know this, I knew that wasn't right. And so I found out about an organization called BAGL, Bay Area Gay Liberation. And it was very left oriented. I mean, to the point of, you know, some of them like Stalin and some of them like Trotsky, (Sheila laughs) and you know, what can I tell you? I like the, the woman, you know, that was so involved. I'm having a senior moment here, but I'll think of her name. - [Sheila] I'll have it with you. - Yeah. And I liked it. I liked the idea. They would pick it. You know, it was a lot of street action. It appealed to my sense, a new sense of affirmation. And then I, we started something called the Gay Teachers' Coalition and there was three of us. We made it like there was millions and that's when you really came up against the closet thing too. Cause there were a lot of closeted gay teachers who did not like you. - [Sheila] Right. - Who didn't want you to do it. We tried to have a speaker's bureau in the public schools. They would subvert that. I mean it was, but it did matter. - But you didn't feel like your work was at risk or your job was at risk? - [Tom] I did, but I was kind of like, I dare you. So after I taught at this school for about six years, we actually had a press. I was, I didn't even know how to have a press conference. I called this African American woman I knew, who, what the black teachers said to. I said, Yvonne, Yvonne, how do I do a press conference? She said, well you do who, what and where? And so we had mimeographs in those days you go, (mimics cranking sound) Who was in the, the ink was smudged. - I know that's how we got high before drugs. (both laugh) - Exactly. That, thank you, Sheila. That's why I taught school. And we had our first, so I was on the front page of the San Francisco Examiner, gay, gifted and closeted. And I looked like Abby Hoffman and you know, I had a perm and I had the beard and everyone thought, oh, you know the school district, they didn't do anything. You know, in fact parents came up and said, oh, you taught my son in the third grade. And you're wonderful. And a lot of the Latino parents cut the picture out, put it on the refrigerator. I'm not even saying they're, that sophisticated or that there wasn't homo, there was still a lot in the teacher's room, particularly. But I tired of the double thing, you know. And it was also so obvious that I was gay. - Yeah, it's freeing. I mean, - [Tom] It was the best thing - Even when everyone in the whole world says, you know, when are they actually gonna like tell us, Still when you, you know, coming out, it's so freeing cause then what can they do to you? - [Tom] That's it? You know, I kept looking over my shoulder. - [Sheila] Yeah. - For a while, you know? - [Sheila] Sure. - But it was great. And then you - So what years are we talking about here? - Well, that would be early seventies up to 75. When we had this big gay teacher action in San Francisco, and actually, - What was that? We picketed the school board so that they would include sexual orientation in their discrimination clause. And that I could advertise the meetings in their little funky newsletter, which their lawyer, you had to remember, the seventies, said how we couldn't do that. - [Sheila] Right, right. They did a complete turnaround and then Briggs happened, you know, the anti, it was funny that we had done that. - We actually have some viewers in other states. So we should probably talk about what Briggs was. - [Tom] An odd little guy, who was in the state legislator, and decided to take on gays in teaching. And that if you were a gay, you should be fired or found out to be, see, that's found out to be. So it's all that chilling. - [Sheila] Right And it became a statewide battle. I think it was prop six. We didn't know who our friends were gonna be. - Now did he get that through the legislature to put it on the ballot? Or did they get signatures? - [Tom] He got sigs. He got sigs. - [Sheila] Yeah. - You know very fundamentalist - [Sheila] Because not every, state has initiatives. the initiative process. Mostly the Western states have it. - [Tom] That's right. So, it turned out to be a great mobilizing tool. We didn't think so. The poll, initial polls were horrible. - So the initiative would've said, if you're gay, you can be fired, no problem. If you're a teacher. - [Tom] Yeah. Because we don't want those gay teachers. - Yeah. My joke was, show me a room full of teachers. I'll show you a gay bar. You know, everybody knew. And then even the fight taught me some things because it's like, well, you know, I'm out, I'm a teacher let me, I can, I can do whatever you want me to do. Some of the gay establishment types were nervous about someone like me because I was not a good, I was too Nelly. I was too whatever. And you know, they would desperately try to find a gay teacher who was out and they, the poor guy maybe was out, maybe wasn't, you know, Harvey Milk was very, very articulate on this issue along with Sally Gearhart and brought national attention to this issue and how they presented it. You can see a little bit of that in the Harvey Milk movie. And then people started to come out of the woodwork about, well, you know, we already have a law that says, if you're inappropriate, you heterosexuals actually have the highest amount of of molestation, which you know, was horrible to think that you would be. - Right. But you always have to, you always have to say these things, you know, because of the stereotypes and because of the assumptions that people make. - [Tom] And then people say, - Especially in a statewide election, where you know - You have to keep - [Tom] I had no idea. - People from voting for a bad thing. - [Tom] You know, and what would the valley do? And you know, who was gonna go door to door? I was really nervous about going door to door. But then even the Wilson Riles the state - [Sheila] Superintendent. - Superintendent came out against it. And then, I think Ronald Reagan was uh - Governor - Yeah. And so Jimmy Carter came out for a, a big rally for him and you could actually see it on the film, we had (unintelligible) blah, blah, blah. And then somebody whispered something to him and he went, "oh yeah, and no, on six." Well, we went, "ah!" I mean, it was such a vindication that somebody like the president would, there's that story in the Harvey Milk film, you know, Harvey met the sister who was the evangelical, and I don't think she wanted to shake his hand. And Harvey said, cause she didn't know where it was, you know where that hand had been. So that was two to one, was defeated prop six. So it was, - That was a big, it was a big victory but I remember the time very well actually. And you know, and it happened still because every year, including this year, there's always something on the ballot about us. Something to keep us from doing this, in those years, it was teaching and these years it's marriage, you know, but always something to sort of, to limit the community. - [Tom] Transport, trannies. - And we worry every yes, and look at the argument in the federal government. - [Tom] Yeah. - About whether, you know, a non-discrimination bill should include transgender people. When in California we put it all in the same law. - [Tom] I know it. I know it. Thank, you. Thank you. Well, I mean, you know, you get an opportunity, to do good in these things. - [Tom] You oftentimes have pushed the envelope up to where you think it's quite wonderful - Well, you're gonna have your turn. - Yes, yeah. - Tom, we're looking forward to it. - Yeah, me too. - So let's see you're in San Francisco. We've now had the Briggs initiative defeated and you're still teaching. What were you teaching? - [Tom] I'm teaching, but I'm restless. I taught mostly special ed, and I like teaching and you know, the other teachers like me and the kids like me, but I'm much too restless. And you know, I think that with the affirmation, you know, I always say to people and I know that you've been very, very good about this. It's like, yeah, yeah, there's a genital expression, and there's gender identity, and there's anatomy, but you know what? We got a culture boys and girls and, there is a queer culture and it's about sensibilities and how you see the world. And it's fine, it's nothing to apologize for. In fact it enriches. - [Sheila] Right, it's like diversity. - [Tom] Yeah, hello. So in San Francisco, you know, you start to see gay artists and photographers and you know, women poets and well, and I thought, what is my thing? I like to make people laugh. I like always wanted to be a performer, but afraid to, you know, people would make fun. And so I started to do standup comedy. As I, as I was teaching, you know, at night it was pretty gruesome. San Francisco in those days had a big comedy empire. It was Robin Williams, blah, blah, blah. But when you went to the open mics, people would make fag jokes, but here was a fag making the jokes and people would throw things at you. and the other comics were AHs, seeing if I can say it, you know? And I thought we really need a place to do something. And that's the Valencia Rose, which started in an old funeral home on Valencia Street in San Francisco. Ron Lonzo, God love him. He just, he's somebody I knew from BAGL. I said, well, what do you wanna do with this now? And he goes, well, I'm gonna have cabaret. His little dream mino was the Mickey Rooney thing. Hey, kids. - [Sheila] Let's do a show in the garage. - He said, I've always wanted to do that. And I said, well, can we do gay comedy there? He said, great, what's gay comedy? (both laugh) - I don't know, but we'll find out. - [Tom] We'll find out. - Right. - [Tom] So we started, it was people like Lea DeLaria, and Marga Gomez and Danny Williams. We didn't even have a microphone. I didn't even learn mic technique until we had enough people come in and start to pay. - So how do you start being a standup comic though? I mean, you say to your friend, give me 10 minutes. I'll give you, I'll just do this. - Yeah. We just we winged it. - Wow. - And people, you know, initially friends would come, but then the word would spread. I mean, I knew about the art form of comedy. I mean, you know, and you kind of have it, an intuition for it, but the craft of it, I didn't know, you know, and I like writing, so, and I like politics and, you know, Reagan and those people were very rich and Bush of course now. And so, and then gay oppression, you know, you could turn it around and if you're affirmed in the audience and there were gay people, didn't like it. Cause they said, oh no, you're letting people know. What am I letting people know? You know, that we're screwed up, but we, you know, that we're dying, but we're happy to, I don't know. What are we letting people know? But it was very, very edifying for me and pretty, pretty scary, at times. - [Sheila] Sure. And I was in a relationship then with Tim Curbo who has left us and he was a teacher as well. And God that poor guy, I would bring him to these you know, Chuck E Cheese, comedy nights, you know, and the waitress with the big hair. And they thought he was a big handsome Texas. And he'd sit there and they'd be coming on to him and he'd go, this is not - No I'm with him. - [Tom] Yeah. It didn't matter. And then at the time of heavy drug use in these clubs and the, you know, the Quaalude crowd and, you know, they would get really threatening. And I saw Tim suffer so much because of me. I always said, you know what? You never have to come with me again. I didn't understand until I really saw him get up. Well, he's worried about me, you know? - [Sheila] Sure. Of course. - So he was - It's very vulnerable up on the stage. - [Tom] Oh man, I'll tell you. But it was great to, to, I'll never, I'll never regret doing it. I just didn't wanna be like the oldest gay comic, you know, going to Laughs a Lot in Walnut Creek, you know? It's very hard to make a career. As you know, it's, you know, for women, for gays in comedy, particularly, you know, it's very cutthroat closet mentality would just try to cut you off. I mean, here would be the biggest queen saying you can't play my club. One of the worst reasons was cause you know, people are afraid of AIDS. I said, what? They're gonna get AIDS when I'm telling a joke? (Sheila laughs) So I looked more and more towards politics and I still cared a lot about public education. - So the AIDS pandemic had sort of really hit the town. - [Tom] Boy, I'll tell you. Yeah, we didn't, in those days it was hello, how are you? The next day or week, he'd be dead. The physical decrepitude, the Kaposi, you know, the purple, I mean people going, did you hear about Eric? He went blind. Did you hear about so and so he lost his leg and the total unpreparedness of the medical community - [Sheila] Yeah. - As well. You know, I've always learned a lot from previous civil rights issues and you know, particularly feminists and the African American and you know, there was, there were models there in how to fight all this and I'll go back to the class issue. Dianne Feinstein was the mayor at that time. Dianne's a very proper woman, you know, and the world is, there's a moralistic streak there. And someday when I write my book, you know, Harvey and she didn't get along and I have some wild stories about that, their confrontation. - You better save some for your book though. - [Tom] Yeah, I better. - Otherwise we're gonna have this downloaded on YouTube. - [Tom] Alright. Well, you know, it's easier for me to talk than you're write, but but she did listen to what I call the A Gays because AIDS did not discriminate that way. And so, you know, a lot of the fellows and women who had supported her, you know, who came from upper middle class backgrounds were dying and was, and losing their houses. And so she actually got it, and I will give her credit for that. And so she started to fund, that's all, what we needed is funding to at least start to, you know, look at research and what the hell was this horrible thing? And then there, the attendant thing was activism. You know, all the what I call the, the Bloody Mary's, they were called the Act Up, and lying in the streets, and not taking it was quite wonderful, you know, you really were fighting for something you were fighting for your life. Everything, it sounds a little, you know, hokey, but it's absolutely true. - No, it actually I think brought the women's movement and the gay and the men's gay movement. - [Tom] I was gonna go right there. That's right. Because when a lot of the guys were sick or not knowing what to do and the horrible family, you know, when the family found out, some of these guys didn't even the family didn't know they were gay. Hello, he's living in San Francisco with his roommate, but they didn't even know that. And then when you got AIDS they couldn't deal with it. They would just disinherit them. And so a lot of our women friends, you know, really stepped up to the plate. It was really, you know, very, very gratifying and you know, they had their own grief to deal with, you know, caretakers, - [Sheila] Right. - It was just horrible for them to lose as many friends as they lost as, as well. So that's where my political pulse came from. And so I ran for school board in the 1979 or something and just got the crap beat outta me about it. But so in '88, here we are at the height of the AIDS thing you know, I'm doing comedy, but I'm getting the message, I'm not gonna be on Johnny Carson. You know, I think I'm great. My friends think I'm great, but it just ain't translating. (Sheila laughs) So I did a, kind of a mock race for mayor and I had a few issues. One was to name a school after Harvey Milk and something else. And I never had a fundraiser except for a library bond. I dressed up as Peewee Herman, who I adored, as you can imagine. And my friend played Missy Vaughn. And I think, you know, I raised $12 and I got 58,000 votes. - [Sheila] Wow. - And that's when my, you know, my friends, and my lover who was still alive then said, you know, you should take this serious. I said, no, no, I wanna be the first gay this. No, you know, should really take it seriously. And I didn't. And I ran in the 90, and we had what we called the lavender sweep. So Migden won Roberta Achtenberg won, Tom Ammiano won for the school board. A good friend of our Donna Hitchens won, the first lesbian - [Sheila] Uh huh, now a mayor. I mean a judge. - [Tom] Judge, yeah. And so that was my baptism into electoral politics. And I've been involved ever since. - Well, been involved ever since is, is another story too, because the lavender sweep is all, in a way it's kind of the beginning. I mean, you know, the city of west Hollywood began as a place where everybody was gonna try to get along and they wanted to handle their own development and not have it or whatever. - [Tom] Yeah. - But it was also a place where gay people felt, you know, comfortable and - [Tom] That's the deal. - And then day one starts, and now you've gotta actually govern. - Yeah. - So what's it been like for you in the government, Tom? - It's been bumpy. The, you know, my particular political bent is for lack of a better, progressive, not so mainstreamy, you know, lefty, whatever you wanna call it. And the board of education was bumpy, first because you're always single issue, no matter what you do, in the beginning particularly, because you're catching up, you know. There was no AIDS program in this school district, there was no gay lesbian counseling in this. There was no recognition of gay parents. So I did all that. And, but, and even though I had been a teacher, they, well, you know, he is one issue. But then when I started to really make my presence felt going to meetings, championing other, you know, the blacks had a big issue with the curriculum. - [Sheila] Right. - As you can imagine. And you know, all these Hoyt Mifflin and all those, these are like the McDonald's of the education world. - [Sheila] Textbooks right? - And the textbooks. And there was no mention of blacks or if there were. And so when I got involved in that, I mean, I would always lose the vote. I would never win the vote. But, you know, you keep to, to what you believe, you know, is a consistency. So you start to become more than the gay guy on this school board, even though that will always, always, always be with us, even now, after all these years. And that got my feet wet in other issues, in electorial way. And so then I ran for the board of supervisors and one, and even there, my, you know, for history's sake, many of my gay lesbian colleagues were just not, even though they served with me, they were threatened, you know, because I wanted to push it. - [Sheila] Right. - Not to just to make trouble You know, I kinda figure, I knew what was right. - No, to make justice. - [Tom] Yeah. Yeah, and so, you know, you're always still the odd man out kind of things, you know, but it worked out when we, I ran citywide twice and even with my little lefty bent, my wrists flapping, came in number one. Which made you president of the board. Oh horrors. Oh there's a president of the board. And to show you the inbred homophobia, cause people don't even know, you know, a lot of it's what I call heterosexism too. It's not like just homophobic. The outgoing president, she thought she would be funny. You know, she, you know, I don't know really what she meant. You come up, there's like a little ceremony, people are weeping. You know, I got a suit on from a guy who died of AIDS She gave me a wand and a tiara. And that when that's the picture that was on the front page. Now I did not put the tiara on. I did not wave the wand, but that's the picture. - And was your partner still alive? - [Tom] No, he died about five days before I got elected to the board of supervisors. - [Sheila] Wow. - So, you know, what can you do? It was kind of being mocked and, and stereotyped. I don't think that this particular woman thought that, but you know, spare me that, you know, I'll do that myself thank you very much. - Well, I mean, coming in first in the voting. President of the board of supervisors, I mean it's, You know, it's disrespectful. I really do understand. I mean, I was the first one gay elected or lesbian elected to the legislature. - You've probably got all kinds of remarks. - And well, yes, mostly from the other side of the aisle. My colleagues were very. - [Tom] But mean. But mean, right? - Yeah. They were mean. Well they were mean about the community. It's like all gay people are spawn of the devil. Nothing personal Sheila, you know, I mean, seriously, for years. - [Tom] I burned your house down, but nothing personal. - It wasn't about you and you weren't there. I made sure you weren't there at the time. It's not, of course as bad as it was. - [Tom] No. - Not as bad as it was. - Well, sometimes the subtle stuff can, you know, that's when you really have to start the work, cause this layer of repression gets peeled away, and then you see the real stuff. And then you get, oh, the one I love is, oh, now they're taking over. I wish. - [Sheila] Yeah. (both laugh) - But there's a lot more involved than just gay stuff and running a city. - [Tom] Oh yeah. - So what have you, what have you learned? What have you sort of, what has been the most interesting set of things you've dealt with? - Well, I thought how to use, you know, what, where you were, not just for self-serving purposes, but to, I like the idea of being the conduit and then you in the community, you come to me or I'll go to you. And that's how we got domestic partners in saying that we don't give any contracts out. And I like the, the risk taking, cause I figure I could always do something else. You know, tell a joke at some, Jewish convention or some Italian wedding, and then you learn how it works. You know, it's not rocket science, you pay attention and you learn how government works or your particular government. I really wanted district elections in San Francisco. I had an affectionate nostalgia cause that's how Harvey won. That's how the first openly gay male in San Francisco ever got elected, but we were doing citywide. It costs too much. So I worked to put something on the ballot and we got district elections and that gave then the tools for a more populist form of city government. Not perfect and certainly not, you know, not something that always works in the way you thought. And so I like that part. I like the populism part. And then you look at what people's needs are, whether they're gay or straight or whatever. And it's housing, it's health, transportation. I like transportation. I don't know where that came from, you know, but I'm on a couple of regional boards. - Must have been all those Greyhounds. (laughs) - [Tom] The Greyhound Buses You see how everything is. Exactly. - [Sheila] It's all connected. - Perfect. Thank you. So you just take your natural instincts and you try to see what you could do legislatively. Or go to the ballot with a lot of times the stuff I had proposed didn't make it legislatively cause I would be out quoted even by the other gay ones, you know, but then I would go to the ballot with stuff and that would win or do well, you know, so there's a comfort zone I have now. I'll never stop feeling like an outsider. I think that that's unfortunately something that's in my DNA, but in the meantime, you know, why not do the best you can. - Now what about family? - I have an interesting story about that. I have of course my Italian family back east, which I'm still very close to and gets bigger and bigger and bigger. And in the seventies I was teaching preschool. And like I said, there was a big feminist movement and women, especially dykes, if they wanna had kids and they were involved with a guy were really up the creek because if there was any custody question, anything. You went before, a judge, usually a male judge. - [Sheila] And you would lose - And he would take - [Sheila] Right. And they would take the kid away from the dyke mom. - [Sheila] Right. So underground things started where you'd have anonymous donors. And so a woman who had a kid in my preschool class asked me, would I be interested in being an anonymous donor? I said, first of all, I know you asked Tim first because he's very good looking. So I know I'm the second choice, you know. You know, one time I saw in the beginning, there was all gay lesbian mothers in the gay parade, you know, sometime in the seventies. And I said, can't you just mix up the donors, all your kids look like Howdy Doody. And you're like Sephardic looking, you know? So I said, I'd do it. And you know, one night there's this little knock at the door, and it's Shoshanna you know, she doesn't know who you are and then you go upstairs and you do the act and you put it in the little jar and then you go goodbye. You know? And that was it. I thought that, you know, I'll never know anything. And that was fine. Didn't really wanna be a dad. And I thought this was gonna be helpful. But about 10 years later I did get a call. And apparently the kid looked a lot like me and not like the mothers, the bio mom, you know, and was pushing, I don't know where she got that in her personality. - Talk about in the DNA. - [Tom] Yes. Nature vs - Pushing to know who her father was. - [Tom] She really wanted to know she was 10. And so they did this backwards stepping cause you know, nobody really did know each other. It was really cool. No, it really was anonymous. As it turns out, they lived 10 blocks away and I kind of knew them and some of their girlfriends were going, did you see the Harvey Milk film? If that guy isn't Annie's father? I don't know who it, I mean, it was so obvious, but not to me, I didn't even know the situation. So Tim was still alive and I said, well you wanna be a dad? I don't know what the role's gonna be. He said, sure. You know, by that time he's very used to me. Now he's been - Mothers contact you? - Well, in the, you know, through the first person who asked me 10 years before then we had a meeting where I met the moms and we, you know, we liked each other and then they kind of laid out what they wanted. And a friend of mine who had been adopted and actually looked a lot like her birth father, she, but not at all like the rest of her Latin family. It was interesting, the parallels. I need to meet him. I need to meet him. She said, I finally met him. That's all I wanted. - [Sheila] Right. - And he wanted a little more and it got a little worse. So she gave me the heads up. If you think you're gonna want more, remember this, you don't know what the kid will want. And actually Annie was very conflicted and she was a doll, you know, and the, the situation was great for her, but she was conflicted. - [Sheila] Sure. - I did take her back to the Italian family. She loved that identity. She just, it was something she had never seen before working class, Italian, blue collar people, screaming, yelling, having orange carpets and gilded wallpaper. And she just, and they loved her immediately. They, I don't know if they ever, I think my older sister still says, oh yeah, Tommy and Diane got drunk one night and this and Diane and I look at, we go, no, we don't think so. Just the idea of it. (both laugh) And so it's grown since then, you know, Annie lived through Tim's death, which was very hard for her, she was 15 at the time. So we've gotten closer, it's a very nice feeling. I'm very proud of her. She's a very, very strong young woman went into teaching. She has a partner, a male partner, and they have two children. So I'm - [Sheila] you're a grandfather, - A gay grandfather, big queen grandfather. - [Sheila] Wonderful. - Yeah, it's good. It's really good. And I, who'd have thunk it. I mean, literally who. - But Tom, the knock comes on the door. You don't know, you have a kid now you suddenly have a kid. How, oh, how did you? - Well, it, it was odd. I was a little worried about it. I wasn't quite sure cause you know, remember the Chinatown movie, you're my donor, you're my father, you're my donor. But it was also the milieu of San Francisco. And now that it was out that, you know, I was the bio dad and all that. Then you pay more attention to when you see people and, and who you see and her mom and the partner are very much involved in lefty politics. So, you know, you'd be at the same events and people would know and they think it was darling. You know, it wasn't always darling. It was hard, you know? - Sure. Parenting is not, I mean, even if it comes late to you, - [Tom] But yeah. And you know, I didn't do any hard work, you know, I didn't birth the kid and I certainly wasn't there for the really hard child rearing part, you know? So it was a little, a little intimidating from time to time, but there was a natural part. I think, you know, I think it's the Italian family thing. Alright, I don't know who you are, where you came from, but you're in the family now. - [Sheila] Right. - So that was comfortable. And so I'd say the outcome of this particular story is good cause you know, I always give caveats to my friends who think, well I'll have a child, you know, with this gay guy or I'll have a child with this, with this lesbian couple. It'll be very, very, very, you think it's copacetic, but there's, you know. - Real people are involved. - [Tom] Yeah. - And then there's the children. - And it could be very a adverse situation. So you really want, I lucked out, you know, I like being the anonymous donor. And then when there was disclosure, I thought, why not? You know, but I don't, you know, I think I'm more the gay uncle than the father. Although it is a trip when you see a kid that you didn't know was around or never saw, you have the same kind of mannerisms. Everything that's negative is me. The overbite is me. The mood swings are me. (both laugh) - Well, it's good, now there's somebody to blame it on. - Well actually I don't mind that either. - So, it's an interesting life, Tom. It's like you, you follow passions, but you, you don't really know where they're gonna lead. - [Tom] Usually, not. - I mean talk about risk taking. - [Tom] Yeah. But it's a good thing, it seems to me, at least it sounds like it's been good. - It feels fulfilling. And I was trying to, one day I was trying to think about what, what the deal is with me. And I think there's something that, you know, I get off on being like the first or a pioneer or, you know, wherever that came from when I was eight years old in New Jersey, we lived next door to a gas station and I would look out the window in those days, some. Cowboys were in, everything was cowboys. and I thought I'm gonna be a cowboy and I'm gonna move out west. And I'm gonna find me a cowboy friend. (Sheila laughs) And you know, actually I did, Tim was from Texas. In San Francisco, I never knew. - [Sheila] Funny how dreams come true. - So there's, it's always that thing, I think escape, you know, and then as long as you're escaping, you might as well do something, you know, and have fun with it, you know? Family taught me a great sense of humor. - What do you see? What do you see yourself doing next? I mean, I know at this moment in time though, I never know when the shows will be shown, you know, especially years from now, but at this moment in time, you're running for the state assembly in California. - [Tom] Yeah. Yeah, and I like that a lot of, the reason is cause people say, geez aren't you fed up with this stuff? And yeah, I'm, I am getting tired of doing retail. What we call retail. Yeah, you got your stop sign. Yeah, I know it's on the wrong side of the street. I'm so sorry. You know, and I like the city policy, you know, we did universal healthcare. We did the domestic partners and now I'm doing this, you know, municipal ID for undocumented people. I like all that, being able to do that. But I like what's happening in the state on and the kind of stuff that you do particularly, and Carolyn, Mark and John and Sheila you're showing what we just talked about. Yeah, yeah. I got the queer agenda. That's right. And I'm not gonna apologize for that in terms of social justice, but I do like transportation and I do have a brain and you know, I know how things work and I don't mind losing. You know, - [Sheila] Well I don't. - Cause you don't really lose, but you do lose a folk. But we don't. - Well, it's interesting. I mean they're, sometimes people are just oppositional and I noticed that they don't, which is not you, they don't care. It's almost like they identify themselves. - [Tom] Yeah, contrarian. - By saying, you know, See, I lost again. I told you. I could have told you what happened. - [Tom] Yeah, yeah. - But you'll be very effective there. I can tell you because all you have to do is, you know, have an idea, think about it, always tell the truth, keep your promises. You know, it's like that book that guy wrote that says everything I needed to know, I learned in kindergarten. - [Tom] It's true. - It's actually not because we're like kindergarten in the state legislature, but because those are the basic things that you need and that, you know, that make you successful. And the canvas is huge. - [Tom] I know. See, I like that part. Yeah. - Yeah. It's just amazing. California has 37 million people in it. It's like, we're bigger than half the countries in the world and you really actually do get to make laws. - [Tom] And you've been very encouraging too. About the when you go there with some government experience, it's very user friendly towards you as opposed to, I guess that's the term limit, downside, you know, where you're gone and so people or people get elected. - But bringing experience with you is very good. - [Tom] Yeah. - So that, so that's it. Why public service though? I mean, it's sort of interesting. You called it politics. - [Tom] I think I could have been a, like a worker priest or something to it. Things hadn't been, I like liberation theology. I'll go back to the there, you know, and in all these organized religions, obviously there was some seed of, you know, before things got a little too twisted, some seed of service or, or whatever. And I probably like that, you know, by taking care of other people, you're taking care of yourself, you know, all that kind of stuff. And certainly the, the playground for me was what, and a lot of us, was very brutal. And so, you know, maybe doing other things, you know, we got the opportunity to see how, you know, maybe this service worked or what have you. And you actually, somebody said to you, oh good. You did good. Where out in the playground. That would not happen. You couldn't play ball. You know, you wanted to be with the girls, which I thought was probably the smartest thing ever did. (Sheila laughs) So, you know, you got little approbation from doing that. And, and then I think if you follow what you learn in kindergarten. - There's also a sense of being different. That, I mean, not everyone has that sense, obviously. - [Tom] Yeah, yeah. - But I think you mentioned to me, you wore an eye patch at one time. - Yeah. Very good. You have a great memory. That's right. And I didn't think of it till I talked to you. So it made me really different aside from being a little Nelly thing. I mean, and I wore the thing from, I think the first grade to the fifth grade, - Why? - I had strabismus, I was very, very cross-eyed. - Huh. - And this was a charity care case and surgery wasn't big in the forties. And so actually this, it was great because it did correct it without surgery, but the psychological stuff was, was really bad, you know? And if either people were over and, and think that was only an eye patch, imagine if you had like a real or a disfigurement, - [Sheila] Right. - Oi. So it was the first thing that people noticed. So they didn't notice me. It was the first thing people noticed. And I think I, when I first came to California, I didn't have the eye patch on, but I think I had it inside because you know, so New York, you know, and so skinny and my voice is high. The whole first year in San Francisco, I thought nobody was listening to me. They were just like, what is this? You know? (both laugh) - Well, and it's interesting too, because the camp that you counseled at, I mean, I'm just thinking of the issue of difference because obviously it's been a theme in both of our lives. - [Tom] Yeah. - And it's not only gayness, it's something there are other issues as well. - [Tom] Yeah, yeah. - But I think it leads to a kind of empathy. I don't know. - [Tom] I like it. Maybe empathy is there and then that leads to it. You know, it could be chicken and egg, I don't know. - But it's satisfying, you know, and you do feel fulfilled. And I always, you know, whatever it is, ADD plus, whatever, you know, I'm always restless and can't sit still. And some, you know, getting older, a couple of friends have saying, you know, "is it, is Ammiano slowing down?" And they go, well, maybe compared to the twenties. - I think it's something in the water in San Francisco because virtually every, ADD member of the legislature has come from San Francisco. - [Tom] Don't you think though, that it's a, it's a gift for a politician. - In a way it is, it just depends. - [Tom] Yeah. Yeah. - You know, you have to sit down sometimes. - Yeah. Well, you know, the special ed part, you know, where you work with the developmentally disabled, it takes a certain kind of patience, but I don't even know I had, and I think I used, used to blow Tim away that, you know, you could work so painstakingly And then at the same time I go, where's my shirt? Where's the garbage, I can't find the thing. Oh my God. (Sheila laughs) You know? So anyway, I've been lucky. I really, really feel like a very, very lucky, lucky, lucky guy, you know. And, you know, part of that was, you know, that homing pigeon instinct of finding a place like San Francisco, which is far from perfect and has, still has a lot of residual homophobia all the things. But there, I think it was opportunity. And that culture part, you could really develop who you were in it. And it wasn't a drawback to be queer. It actually enriched you. Maybe nobody else saw that, but you saw that. And then making friends, I always say that, you know, if I can say this on TV, when I was in my twenties and I came to San Francisco and entered the gay scene, man getting laid was so wonderful. Oi, all the repression in New Jersey and the all boy schools and the furtive and the secretive and the discovery. But the best thing was friends. The best thing that they were gay, and you had real friends, and then the straight friends who came along and didn't care that you were gay. I always felt that that was the gift and that was not in my life and probably not in yours, you know, from New Jersey or wherever we were from. So it's really, really wonderful. - Well, it kind of the same for me when I first got elected, I didn't know what to expect up there, cause it was like, you know, I'm the only one. - [Tom] There she is. - What is it gonna be like? And right away, we had a caucus of the democratic members because it was kind of a crisis when we got there. Because we had lost a lot of seats and it was a perfectly evenly divided assembly in California, 40 Democrats and 40 Republicans. And everything was in crisis. And I didn't know what, and I walked into the democratic caucus and immediately John Burton from San Francisco, - [Tom] Came right over, - I don't have to explain but to you, but you know to them. And one of our African American members and Antonio Villaraigosa, who's now mayor of Los Angeles. - [Tom] Wow! - You know, so it was like a rainbow coalition of people. 10 people comes over to me and says, okay, so we don't want you to have to eat lunch by yourself. So we're the honorary gay and lesbian caucus. (both laugh) - That's so wonderful. - And I thought phew. - Yeah. - You know? - Yeah. Thank God. Yeah. - And things have changed so much really for our community in the world. - [Tom] Yeah. Yeah. And I, you know, I think that going back to the mechanics of it, that the term limit issue has probably put a little bit of an obstacle for everybody there, you know, and I don't know what's gonna happen with that, you know, - [Sheila] Well I - But we'll do our best. - I don't either. - [Tom] You know, we'll do our best. - But I mean, you know, thinking about our community and the [Tom] Institutional memory part. - Being able to come out, being able to get elected. I mean, it's been a very short amount of time for us. - Very fair. Growing paints. I think we've had, you know, we really made a lot of progress in a short time. And I think just like a kid, if your bones grow fast, you know, you're gonna have some yeah. Problems. - [Sheila] Growing paints. - Growing paints, you know. Exactly what is the right thing to do. I'm not a big fan of assimilation. Not that I don't want the playing field leveled and everything, but I want that difference you're talking about - [Sheila] Sure. - I want that to be maintained. And I'm seeing a drift away from it. And you know, I try to be like, you know, the old guy saying, be careful, be careful. It's fine to be a little this and a little that, you know, but I want you to own your house. And if you wanna have kids, God love, you have kids, but don't forget, you know, we're not the same. And that's good, you know, that's, I guess back to that cultural thing. - It is, you know, so one last question, because I think we're down to the last two or three minutes. Believe it, or not - [Tom] Unbelievable. - I know, I love talking to you. - [Tom] I did this without a beer folks. You know, usually (both laugh) - Hey, I haven't had a beer for 30 years. - Yeah. Alright. - You can drink. - I'll made up for you. - Exactly. What sort of, what would you like to be your legacy? I guess let's say you serve up there, whatever the terms are gonna be, you know? - [Tom] Yeah. I always thought on the gravestone, I'd like to say here stands Tom Ammiano. (Sheila laughs) I, you know, the leg I have to say and not to diminish the question, cause it's a good one. You, when you get to a certain point in life and especially politics, all of a sudden, and especially guys, so it's legacy, you know, it becomes like a, what's your leg, I don't know. You know, Willie Brown, he wants, he's not gonna rest until he has this legacy, a building name after him. - [Sheila] I don't mean that. - Or what have you. - What was the good thing you did when you were there? - I think basically that coming out in certain venues that were very hostile, not necessarily nurturing, nourishing and just holding my, holding my ground. And you do that with a lot of support too, but you know, sometimes you don't, it's not visible, but you know, you took something from this person or took and you have internalized it. So I'd say that kind of populist that that would be fine with me, you know? So. - That sounds good to me too, Tom. - Alright. No punchline. I have no punchline. - I don't think, well, you know, I, I always try to think of a punchline myself, but I think the, I mean, for us, it's just, it's been, it's been a good life, thanks to other people and thanks to. - [Tom] Absolutely. - Opportunity. And the ability to just actually live in a time where you could say you were gay or lesbian, somebody would vote for you. - [Tom] Yeah. - You know. Now it probably still an awful lot of places where that's not the case. - No, I know that. And, and I'm hoping that, you know, when that's finally eradicated other things that are like that will be eradicated too. I think one thing Milk has said, and I've heard you say is, you know, when we make these little advances that we make and we get this, don't forget about somebody else who's in the back of the bus, which is the prime example of the transsexual issue right now. - [Sheila] That's right. Exactly. - We're dysfunctional. The LGBT, God knows we are, but we, we are this, this dysfunctional, extended family and these family members are not gonna be left behind. You know, I'm sorry that the beltway thinking isn't that, you know, but we'll change it. - [Sheila] We will change it. - Yeah, yeah. - Tom, thank you so much for being with us. - [Tom] Thank you. Thank you for being with us. And next time you think about the next thing you wanna do in your life, just go for it, cause whatever it is, you'll get used to it. (groovy guitar music)