Get Used to It: Ep. 136, "A Conversation with Dr. Susan Love"

(typewriter keys clacking) (upbeat guitar music) - Hi, I'm Sheila Kuehl. Welcome to "Get Used To It." It's another in our series we call "Voices of Our Lives." Where we talk about not only issues of interest to the LBGT community, but a person in our community who has made a real impact on the world at large. Today, I'm very, very happy to have Dr. Susan Love as my guest. And I know you're all going, "Oh, don't tell me about her. I know who she is." But I'll tell you for the one of you out there in a million that may not have heard of her. She is, of course, internationally known. Not only as a surgeon, but as an expert on breast cancer issues and issues of menopause. Has two of the very best books out on the subject, that have gone through a number of iterations. When people wanna know what to do, when they wanna get the straight scoop, as it were, they talk to and listen to Dr. Susan Love. So I'm very happy that you're here. - Thank you, Sheila. It's great to be here. - Now, one of the things I think is really interesting to our audience, when we talk to somebody who has made a real impact, as you have in the world, is where did this come from? Where do you come from? I mean, we don't know when we're three years old exactly what we're gonna be when we grow up. So if you don't mind start at the beginning. Where were you born? What was it like when you were a kid? Where'd you grow up? - I was born in New Jersey. I'm the oldest of five, good Irish Catholic family. And we lived down the shore, as we used to say, near the beach in New Jersey. And I lived there till I was 12. And at that time, my father was transferred to Puerto Rico. So I went to middle school in Puerto Rico. And then I went to high school in Mexico City. So we ended up traveling around a little bit. And that was a great experience, I think. It really taught me a lot about the world. - Well, let's explore that for a minute, 'cause those are very formulative years. I mean, even in high school, you may or may not have known that you wanted to be a world renowned surgeon, et cetera. But what happened to you during these years? What caught your interest and helped shape the next step that you took? - Well, my father was really, very strongly told us all that we had to make the world a better place for having been there. And that was a very strong message, that came through loud and clear to all of us, all of the kids in my family. And when I was in Puerto Rico, I had an interesting experience because I was 12 and I was the only person from the mainland that was there. Didn't speak Spanish. Everybody else was much more Latin in culture than I was and it was quite a trauma. I came down doing the twist and they thought I was a loose woman. When I was 12! (Sheila laughing) I had no idea what was going on. So I bonded somewhat with the nuns at that time. And there was one nun in particular who was a very strong mentor in terms of encouraging me in science and telling me I was smart. And those were the days when nobody told girls they were smart. Because, actually, being smart was not a thing you would aspire to. - [Sheila] Well, it didn't make you attractive. - Yeah, it wasn't a good thing. But really encouraged me. And it turned out, later on I found out she actually hated science. She really was an artist. But she was assigned to teach science and she taught science. And that was really the start of my knowing that I wanted to do something in science. And even at that time, to be a doctor. - So while you were in high school, in Mexico, this probably just grew then, for you. - It grew. And I started the math club and I started the science club. And in my yearbook I must admit it does say, "Will win the Nobel Prize." So I guess I had aspirations early on to change the world. - And were your folks supportive of a girl studying science? I mean, sometimes your parents worry, "Oh, maybe none of the boys will like you," you know? - Well, indeed. I mean, my mother's big thing was that I should get married and have kids. And I was the first one to go to college in my family. And those were the days when really you went to college to get your Mrs. degree, to get married, not to have a career. And I went, nobody told me or gave me advice about where to go to college. I've just been through this recently with my own kid. And two years we spent agonizing about where she should go to college. Well, my parents didn't even say anything. And the counselors at school didn't say anything. So I picked out a school that was taught by the same nuns we'd had in Puerto Rico and went to Notre Dame in Maryland, in Baltimore. And they were good in science. I knew they were good in science, which was unusual for a Catholic girl's school. And headed off to Baltimore. - So you start college and you're thinking maybe you'll be a doctor and you're studying science. And what happens next? - Well, I also had this idea ever since high school or middle school, that maybe I should be a nun. That I was being called. And they have this insidious way of telling you that if you even think about it, that might be God calling. That could be it. - [Sheila] Right. (laughs) - Could be tapping you on the shoulder. And so in college I thought about it more and I eventually decided I really had to try it. It was the sixties. It was, what, probably '64. No, '68. 'Cause I graduated high school in '66. So '68, Vatican II had just happened. Exciting things were actually happening in the Catholic Church, that made it even more attractive. But it was still before women's lib. So as a nun, you could be president of a hospital. You could be head of a college. You could have a pretty good career as a nun, that you couldn't have as easily as a woman. - And was it an order that had a nursing band or a medical band or? - It was actually not, it was a teaching order. But they let me stay pre-med. And I think they thought I would become a doctor and take care of all the old nuns when they got older. - Hey, you never know, it's not over yet, right? - [Susan] Indeed, indeed. - So, but you're not a nun now, so I'm assuming you didn't stay. - I didn't last very long. I was there for... (alarm wailing) (alarm wailing) Do you wanna wait a second for this? - No, no, no, it's fine. We'll just keep going. - Okay. So I went into the convent and it was really clear to me that this was not the right thing. Pretty soon, actually, within a couple of weeks. I wanted to save the world and they wanted to save their soul. And if there was time left over, they'd save the world. And so I agonized. They sent me out to Fordham because I was already a junior in college. I wore a habit on a college campus, which was kind of interesting in the sixties. And commuted back and forth. And finally, I was making myself crazy trying to decide whether I should leave or whether it was just that I wasn't willing to give up my ego enough to submit to this kind of life. And finally the same nun that had been so encouraging to me in junior high school came to visit and she said, "Is this making you crazy?" And I said, "Yes." And she said, "Well, God doesn't want you to be crazy." I said, "Oh, alright, I'm outta here." And I left shortly thereafter. - So did you feel, looking back in sort of in the twenties, it's hard to tell whether you feel like you, at the time, were doing the right thing or whether it was sort of a failure. You started college and you didn't finish that yet. And you went into be a nun and you weren't finishing that. And because you always seem to me like a very positive person. And certainly the attitudes that you put out, in terms of what you think other people should feel, are very positive. But did you ever have these sort of doubts? 'Cause lot of times you think, "Oh, well they're not like me because they never had any doubts." - Right. Oh, no, I felt very much that I had failed. And it was the first time, I was 20 and just 21, that I had tried to do something and not succeeded. And that was a real blow. And it took me probably six months of sort of depression and to pull myself out of that. And I stayed at Fordham and finished college there, but that was a very difficult time. And in fact, it's interesting you ask because I've been telling my daughter, who's now 20, those stories. Because I want her to realize that you don't always go on a straight path and everything's perfect. That there are these turns where you say, "Oops, that was the wrong road." And you turn around and get back onto track again. And that's okay. You don't have to do it perfectly from the beginning. - I think it's actually very important. I always thought when my acting career failed, and a lot of people wanna go, "Oh, it didn't fail. Didn't fail." But you know, I felt as though I failed at it. But of course the wonderful thing was that the doors that were opened then, later were so much more fulfilling. Or at least as fulfilling and certainly much longer lasting. - [Susan] Right, right. - 'Cause I can do what I'm doing into my dotage. - Right. Exactly. And more fulfilling. I mean, when you look at where the church is gone and all of that stuff. In fact, I was back there. When we drove past, we were taking my kid on a college tour. And the mother-house is in Connecticut, where I had lived. And we knocked on the door. And I had driven past before, I'd never knocked on the door. I was always afraid they'd capture me back. And this time I knocked on the door and I said, "I was here briefly at this year," and "Can I come in?" And they said, "Sure." And they said, "We're having mass. Do you wanna do you wanna go in?" And Kate and Helen, my partner, were with me and we all went in. And there were these poor, these older nuns scattered about where that whole chapel had been full when I was there. And I just looked about and said, "There's no question, I did the right thing. There's no question. That was the right decision." - It is sad too, because it's a community of women. - [Susan] It is! - And it's just been dwindling and dwindling and dwindling. - Well, it's women's lib, you see. Because now we have so many other opportunities. - [Sheila] Other things to do, right. - That you didn't have then. And that was a large part of it. And the same thing in the priesthood. When you look where the priesthood and the sisterhood are flourishing, are in countries where the income's not very good. It's the only way you're gonna get an education or the only way you might be able to get a career. And then you see much more. - So did you have inklings about your sexual orientation? I'm not saying just in the convent, but I mean, in these years in college. - You know, I didn't. But, I really didn't. My mother was so focused on you had to get married and have kids that I don't think I let it enter my brain. But I do think it's interesting 'cause I think going into the convent was also a way. It never bothered me that I would never be able to find a man if I was in the convent. So, obviously, there was some inkling in there that I'd be okay in that environment. - So you finished with college and then right into medical school, or? - Decided I wanna go to medical school. And it was a tricky time. It was during the Vietnam War. We're still pre women's lib. So most medical schools had quotas as to how many women they would take, 5%. And I went around interviewing in, this was New York at Sinai and Columbia, and they said, "Sorry, we took our 5% already." And I said, "Oh, okay." Because that was the way life was. And I applied also to... My pre-med advisor, the guy who was writing my recommendations, told me I shouldn't go to medical school because I would be killing some boy. Because it was during the Vietnam War. They could get a deferment if they went to medical school. - Right. So everyone that didn't get in, would get drafted. - That's right. And I would be taking their place. So I would be personally responsible for their death. So it was an interesting time. I mean, there was not a lot of encouragement. And my mother thought it might be okay because maybe I'd find a good man there. But that was really the only thing. So I did manage to get into medical school. I went to Downstate in Brooklyn. I was also the oldest of five. My father said, "I'll pay for college but after that, you're on your own." So I went to a state school, which was much cheaper. Which was a good thing. And they were more liberal, they had 10% women. - [Sheila] Uh-huh. - And halfway through medical school, it came out. And it was the beginning of women's lib and they came out that there were quotas in law schools and medical schools. And they opened up like overnight. So it went from 10% to 30% in one year. - [Sheila] In your school? - In my school. - [Sheila] And in other schools, as well? - And in other schools as well, yeah. My partner is four years behind me in medicine. And she went to Harvard four years later and they already had 25% women. So it was like that, it changed. And when I finished all the residencies were looking for a token woman. But there weren't very many of us 'cause we were still from the quota years. And so we actually did better. It finally worked to our advantage. We did better than some of the guys 'cause everybody was lookin' for- - So did you specialize in medical school? Are you required to do that? Or is that later? - [Susan] That's later. Medical schools- - That you decide to be a surgeon. Because that's also a very rare move for a woman, I think. - Yeah, I didn't expect to wanna be a surgeon. I thought they were just plumbers. But your third year of medical school you try out each different specialty, and it was really the only thing I liked. I liked being able to quote, "cure people." It's sort of ironic. I ended up in a field where, probably, surgery isn't the curative thing. But if you take somebody's appendix out, they won't get appendicitis again. Whereas if you treat somebody for diabetes, you're treating 'em forever, you're not really curing 'em. And I liked using my hands and I like the immediacy. You could try to guess what it was and then you could open 'em up and see if you were right. You know? (both laughing) So all of that was good. - We always suspected surgeons felt that way about it. (both laughing) - Well, if you're a medical doctor, you say, "Well, take this drug and come back at two weeks to tell me how you did." But you never really know if you made it, if you did it right or not. Now, the bad thing about being a surgeon is, you know when you cured somebody 'cause you've taken their appendix out, but you also know when you've hurt somebody because you've physically cut the wrong thing or whatever. So on both sides, it's much more sharp, I like to say. - What was the attitude to a woman surgeon coming into the practice or rotation or? - Well, nobody wanted a woman. The chief of surgery at my medical school called in everybody who either failed or got honors. And I went in, he said, "So did you fail?" I said, "No, actually, I got honors." And he said, "So what are you gonna do?" I said, "Well, I'm gonna be a surgeon." And he was an African American man. And he said, "I don't think women should ever be surgeons, so don't apply here." So it was not a good time. I ended up at Beth Israel hospital in Boston, which is one of the Harvard teaching hospitals. And the chief of surgery there, he was actually very inclusive. And we had African Americans, we had women, we had all kinds of different people, as opposed to Mass General or the Peter Bent Brigham, which were total WASPs. So that was really supportive. And I was the second woman to finish the program and be chief resident. And the first woman on the staff as a general surgeon. - [Sheila] Wow. - So not that long ago. People don't realize. There are all kinds of amazing stories. One surgeon said to me, "I don't like to operate with the women because if I yell or throw things, I'm afraid they're gonna cry." And I said, "Well, have you ever occurred to you that the guys probably don't like it when you yell and throw things, either." (both laughing) "Oh, I never thought of that." It was an interesting time. - Still though, it seems like stories I've heard from other women in, especially surgeons, that you sort of get frozen out of whatever camaraderie there is. - [Susan] Oh, yeah! - Although I've generally found surgeons to be very conservative, so maybe being frozen out isn't such a bad thing. But was that your experience? - Yeah, they had the nurses lounge, which is also where the women could go, with little lockers, one toilet, no shower, small room. And then you had the surgeon's lounge, three toilets, three showers, big lockers, and a lounge where you dictated your case. So that's where everybody would hang out after the operation and talk about it before the operation. And you'd be in the nurses' lounge. So one time I had to dictate the case. I walked right through the surgeon's lounge. One of my attendings is standing there in his shorts and he said, "What are you doing here?" I said, "Oh, I'm sorry. It said surgeon's lounge on the door. I didn't know it was the men's room." And then they changed it to women and men once they realized that. But, absolutely. They didn't quite know what to do. They were afraid. They didn't know how to treat you. It was a very, it was a difficult time. And of course it was in the old days of surgery when you were on call for a whole weekend and all the next day and every other. So you were always sleep deprived. And even the patients, didn't like women surgeons. 'Cause there weren't any, you know? And you'd go into the operating room and the anesthesiologist would say, "Has the surgeon arrived yet?" And you'd be standing there. So our patients, one patient, I was covering for the attending and she had a problem and I took care of it. And she said to the nurse, "That Doctor Goldman is so nice. When he can't come, he sends his wife." (both laughing) Now why you would want his wife, I don't know. But they just couldn't grok the fact that a woman could be a surgeon. - So what then started to happen at this point in your life? Because your life took some very important turns. I mean, you have a partner, been your partner for- - [Both] 25 years. - You have a daughter. Your specialty is certainly not what people would associate with sort of the plumber who is the surgeon. So what happens to you at this point? - Well, in fact, when I was a senior and chief resident, I said, "I will not let them make me into a breast surgeon. I refuse to do that. I can do big operations just like they can, and I'm gonna do them." Because the only people doing breast were the people who were retiring or the ones that they thought weren't very good. Cause it really had no status at all. And I went into practice and there were no jobs. So I had to go into private practice 'cause nobody was gonna hire me. And they only sent me women with breast problems. They wouldn't send me a guy with a hernia 'cause I was too close to the crown jewels, you know? My knife might slip or something. (Shelia laughs) So I kept seeing these women with breast problems. And it was a time when there was just some data saying maybe breast conservation would work as well as mastectomy. And where women were not being talked to. So it was very much the, "Don't worry dear, we'll take care of you." And you woke up not knowing if you had a breast or not. So I found that I could make a much bigger difference as a breast surgeon than I could taking gallbladders out. And so it started out as a career thing and it ended up as a mission really. And in those days there were no breast surgeons. So people said to me, you'll never make a living as a breast surgeon. They said, "The problem with breast surgery is the talk to cut ratio is wrong. You have to talk too much to the patient for the amount of cutting you get to do." So it was an interesting time. And then they couldn't figure out why I was so popular. They thought it was the mauve carpet and the curtains. And they couldn't figure out that it was that I would sit there and explain to the woman what was going on and what her choices were and what to expect, which is something they had never done. So it was interesting. And it was very clear to me that being a woman surgeon meant they were never gonna really accept me. And so my power really came from my patients, not from my academic rank or anything like that. And that's about the same time that I came out. So it all came out together. - [Sheila] How did that happen? - Well, once I had went into practice, then I had sort of plowed my way through all of this. And once I went into practice, then I decided, okay, now is the time to settle down, white picket fence and the whole bit. So another woman and I went on a find a man campaign. (Sheila laughing) And we put ads in the paper. And we found the same man, actually. (Sheila laughing) He answered my ad - Must have been a good guy. - She answered his ad. - Uh-huh. - But in the course of this, she told me that previously she had been involved with women. I said, "Involved with women, I didn't know that was on the menu, hmm" Now that's an idea! And then I realized that this guy was the recipient of all his sexual energy, which was actually between us and not him at all. And I ended up telling her after a bottle and half of wine, I think. And she said, "Well, that's really nice, but I really wanna find a man." And so she sort of handed me off to some people in the lesbian medical community in Boston in those days, who took me under their wing and took me to the bookstore and the concerts. And gave me coming out lessons. And that took place over the course of a summer. And then, I knew Helen, she was behind me. She was actually four years behind me in medicine, although we're the same age. And so the people that were giving me lessons were not tight lipped about this. This was like a great coup that they had gotten me. - I remember those days. (both laughing) - So she knew that I was in this coming out thing. And come the end of the summer, she had a place up New Hampshire, she was bored. And I had always sort of been a little nervous about her 'cause she always made me nervous. I was sort of- - [Sheila] Because? - Well, I think, I knew she was gay. She was open, she was out. - So sure of herself and gay. - [Susan] Yeah. And I was afraid it was catching. And I was right. - It is. - [Susan] It was catching. - [Susan] (laughing) Exactly. - And so she invited me up to her place for the weekend, just 'cause she was lookin' for company. And she said, "And let me know tomorrow, so I can find somebody else If you don't come." 'Cause she really wasn't looking for anything. And I agonized and then decided to come. But I took my own car. (laughs) - [Sheila] The escape route. - Right. - [Sheila] Right. The back door. - And we went up to her place for the weekend and fell in love that weekend, Labor Day weekend. And that was 25 years ago this fall. - [Sheila] That's a great story. - So we've been together ever since. - [Sheila] Wow. - And all the time I'd gone out with men, I'd sort of run in the other direction when it started getting serious. - So private practice, in a way, gives you the freedom to be who you are. But it's not of interest to your patients? I mean, there's a level at which you have to worry, I guess, about that or maybe... - Yeah, although, one of the things is that once I do something, I do it all away. So shortly after I came out, there was an interview about me in "The Boston Globe," and I came out in "The Boston Globe." Probably within a year of coming out. And, actually, every time I've come out publicly, it's been beneficial. I mean, I might have lost some patients, but I couldn't tell because I had so many. And a woman came in, an old Italian woman from the East Bay, east side of Boston, and she said, "You've done the most wonderful thing for me." And she would just be the stereotypical person you'd think would be upset. And she said, "You gave me my son back." Her son was gay and living in LA. And when he saw that she sent him the article, and when he saw that she was still going to this person that she'd found out, he came out, which he'd been afraid to do. And she'd always known he was gay. She said, "You brought him back." And another kid, there's a kid in Rhode Island, who was in high school and had just come out to her parents. Had always wanted to be a doctor. And they said, "Oh, now you can't be a doctor." And so she showed 'em the article and she wrote to me. And then 15 years or so later, I was giving a talk at Columbia university, and she was the chief resident in surgery. So it's always been, I've always found it better. - Well, I think the authenticity just of saying and being who you are. I always found that even coming out may not be only about gay people hearing you come out. - [Susan] Right. - Family secrets start coming out. People are free to say those things that they've kept hidden for years that are very different. But why did "The Boston Globe" wanna write about you? Was it because of your practice? - Yeah, it was because of my practice. Because I was a woman surgeon, which was still unusual, doing breast. So, yeah, it was because of the practice. - So what sort of happened to you during this time? Because you went, from what you said, you went from understanding that this was not a valued thing for a surgeon to do. Very much the same as in law, working on women's stuff, or in academia, teaching about women's stuff was not valued. It put you at the bottom of the pile. But there were so many people who wanted and needed your help and your medical skills. - [Susan] Right. - But also your understanding, something must have happened to you at this time, beginning to understand how important that was. - Well, it really did. As I saw these women, I realized how badly they were being treated and how nobody was really helping them. When I saw what a huge difference it made, just explaining things. I realized that really this was a mission and not just a career. And the other thing that became really clear, is when you're a woman surgeon, first of all, and then an out lesbian surgeon, you're never gonna be part of the old boys' club. You're never gonna. In Boston, there's the Boston Surgical, met at the Harvard Club Cigar smoke dripping off the wooden panels. And I knew I was never gonna be invited there, which I wasn't. It was clear. So it really freed you up. It means you can speak the truth, you can do what's right. Because they're not gonna kick you out. You're not gonna lose your job. Because they're not gonna hire you in the first place. So I found it very liberating and very empowering, actually, for the rest of my career. That it really allowed me not to be so worried about what people were gonna do or say, but just to be who I was. - I understand entirely. Going into women's rights stuff after I got outta law school, I thought, well, I don't know if I'd ever be in a major firm or not. I interviewed and the people in the chairs dwindle as people are hired. And you see only the women and people of color after a while. 'Cause I was in Boston too, at Harvard. And it really does free you up to say, "Well then I'm just gonna do. I'm gonna represent the people I wanna represent. I'm gonna be in business the way I wanna be in business." - [Susan] That's right. - So you and Helen are together and you're building a practice. - [Susan] My practice is booming. - And then what? - And then Helen wanted to have a kid. And this is probably '86. So it was still very early in the early days of, really, a lot of lesbians having kids. And I had not really thought about it too much. And I'm the oldest of five, so I sort of thought I'd already done it. My younger, my baby sister's 12 years younger than I am. And it felt like I'd been there, done that already. But she really wanted to do it. And so we tried for a year with my brother as a donor and then switched. And by then I was invested in the process. And Helen's first cousin is Katie's father. - So when you say switched it, instead of Helen trying to get pregnant- - [Susan] Then I tried to get pregnant. - With a different donor, you tried to get pregnant. - And these were well before the days when you could do any kind of fertility stuff as a lesbian, much less... I mean, fertility stuff wasn't even being done in straight women, but you certainly couldn't do it. I remember we fantasized the perfect thing 'cause I didn't mind being pregnant and she was really into the genes. She wanted the kid to be related to us. So if we could take your eggs and my brother's sperm and then I'll do the pregnancy thing. And of course now you could do that, but you couldn't do it then. So I got pregnant, being Irish Catholic, right away. (both laughing) Some things never change. - [Sheila] Right. - And Katie was born in 1988 and was just a joy. And has been just a joy to both of us. And she was about two when we went to a family reunion down in Mexico. And on our way in, they said, the airline people said, "Well, do you have a notarized letter from the father saying she can leave the country?" We said, "What?" Her dad, he was willing to be known as her father, but he had actually even, you know, didn't really wanna have anything to do with raising her. And so we said, "No, he doesn't even know she.." Well, this was one of these laws to keep you from kidnapping your spouse's kid. - [Sheila] Right, of course, sure. - And we didn't have that. And luckily my brother was with us and so we just turned around and said, "Oh, her father's right here." You know? And his name is Love and Helen was Cooksey and her name's Love-Cooksey, so. And the airline people didn't care, they just wanted to check the box. So they were fine. But we came home from that and Helen was determined that she was going to legally be Katie's- - [Sheila] The other parent. - [Susan] The other parent. And first we filed to, and they wouldn't even accept our petition for adoption, in Boston. And then we had to sue to get that accepted. And then it got accepted. And then they met, they said, the judge actually said to our lawyer, "Do these people have a lot of money." And she said, "Well, you know, they're doctors, they're comfortable." "Because this is gonna cost 'em," she said. And we ended up having to have a lawyer for Kate. We had to have a shrink for Kate. The social workers had to come to our house. We had to put on a whole prima facie case, so we had to pay for the courtroom, the whole thing. And- - In order to have the second parent adoption? - [Susan] For the second parent adoption. - Even heard? - Yeah, even heard. And it was just around the time when they had taken these kids, two boys, that were in foster care away from two gay men. So it was not a really great climate for this. But we went forward and we put the case on and my dad flew in. And we had our priest testify, who came out at two years later. But we didn't know that at the time. 'Cause we thought the judge was probably Irish Catholic, so we were working all our odds. We put this whole case on and then she said, "She couldn't see a reason not to do it," but she kicked it up to the appeals court. And then the Supreme Court of Massachusetts took it. And they were not that liberal at the time. Well, by this time we were actually, I had been recruited to come out and start the program at UCLA. So we were moving to California. And there was big debate among the lesbian and gay lawyers in Boston about whether they should go forward or not. 'Cause if it was went against us in Supreme Court, no one in Massachusetts would of been able to do it. But they finally decided we were probably their best shot because we were both pillars of the community and there was nobody against it and blah, blah, blah. So we had moved out here and I was going back to Boston to give a talk at a breast cancer rally, and Helen and Kate went ahead to visit with friends. And right before I got on the plane they actually announced the case. And we won. And I can't remember anymore, Helen would correct me, it was five to four or it was six to five, but it was close. It was very close. So I flew out there and I thought, my only fear, I said, "If she leaves me now, if Helen walks off of Kate now, after I've done, this I'm gonna..." (Sheila laughing) But it was just great. And we think that it probably helped set the stage for the marriage thing in Massachusetts. Because they couldn't argue that it wasn't in the best interest of the kids 'cause they'd been doing it for 10 years. - Well, it's interesting how this sort of reminds me of "Guess Who's Coming to Dinner." Because we kind of got our protections at work. And in some places, some protections in school or academia. - [Susan] Right. - And little by little, it was, well, maybe you don't wanna fire someone just because they're gay, okay. But when it came to the family stuff, again, just as with race, there was a sticking point about whether we would go the other half mile and really allow the family stuff to happen. - [Susan] Yeah. - And it was often with the the area of adoption or the area of recognition of a two-parent family, et cetera, that it happened. So it was a very, very important case. - [Susan] Yeah. - Was the first one in Massachusetts? - It was the first one in Massachusetts. And there had been maybe one or two around the same time. Vermont, maybe, there were one or two, and New York was around that same time. Just around then, they all went through. But it was great. For a while we would just get flowers at the house from some couple that had been able to adopt their kids. - [Sheila] Wow. - No, it was great. It was really a wonderful thing. - So you moved to California. UCLA recruited you to do what? - UCLA called me in February, in Boston, and said, "Are you movable?" And I looked out the window- - You looked out the window in February in Boston! (laughs) - Said, "Yeah. I would look at a job in Southern California." (both laughing) - Totally relate. - And we came out here. Helen's a Californian and always wanted to come back to California. My siblings were living in Santa Barbara, so it wasn't so crazy. - Let me ask you question about your siblings. - [Susan] Yeah. - You said your dad came when you had this case. - [Susan] Right. - It sounds to me as though your family was pretty supportive. - Very supportive, however- - Was there a kind of a glitch, though, at the beginning with them? - There wasn't a glitch, but my mother was dead before I came out. My mother died at 58. And I don't think that was that an accident because I think if there was gonna be a glitch, it would've been with her. She probably would've been okay, but, I mean, she wanted me to marry a doctor and I did. (both laughing) She just didn't specify the gender. That was her problem, you know? (Sheila laughing) But my family were, by that time I was 32, they were so happy I'd found somebody that they were pretty supportive. - And they're pretty invested in you. I mean, that was what I experienced, is that by the time I came out to my parents, they were so invested in me as their daughter that it would've been really hard for them to go, "Oop, that's it!" - Yeah, and I was the most successful. So even my aunts and uncles were sort of stuck because if they were gonna claim me as this as their niece, the famous surgeon, they had to sort of claim the whole thing. So that really helped, that helped a lot. And then once you have a kid, it's hard, it's even more. I mean, everybody is so into the kid that that always helps as well. So both of our families have been, we've been very lucky with that, have been really supportive. - [Sheila] So I didn't mean to interrupt about UCLA. - That's okay. - But what did they want you to come out and do? - So UCLA wanted me to set up the Breast Center. The prominent breast surgeon had just left UCLA and gone across town. And they thought they'd never see a breast patient again, and so they called me out to do this. And when you're, probably as in law school, when you're in medical school and in residency, what's held up to be the acme, the epitome of success, is to be an academic. And so here I was being asked to be an academic. So I thought, great. And I came out and I set up the Revlon UCLA Breast Center. And I was there for four years. But I hadn't really occurred to me I would have a boss. (Susan laughs) And be part of a bureaucracy, which I hadn't really done before. And that was difficult for me to maneuver. And I was really used to being much more, you know, deciding on my own. So when it came time to renew my contract and they wanted to limit my income by how much operating I did, I said, "You know what? I don't think so, I think I'm outta here." - So in academia, were you teaching, were you... - [Susan] I was teaching. - Did you have to produce research? I mean, you were probably wanting to do this. But so far, what you've said is you were a surgeon with a practice of breast surgery. But, so how does this next step happen? - Well, there's a few side things though, before we get to the next step, which is I also started the advocacy movement for breast cancer and wrote a book. Well, the wrote the book first and then that led to the advocacy movement. So I was very well known by that time for- - [Sheila] So what led you to write the book? - Well, because I'd learned talking to people how to explain everything and I thought I really need to get it to the people, other people. So I wrote it and it was the first book that really wasn't just, "Oh me, I got breast cancer. What should I do?" And doctors hated it. They hated it. Because you weren't supposed to tell patients the secrets. You weren't supposed to let them know that we didn't know which was better, this or this. And I really got a lot of problems from that. But the women loved it. And then that led to, I was actually in Salt Lake City, Utah giving a talk about the book. And it was the middle of the day, the middle of the week. And a lot of women, middle aged women. And I wanted them to laugh. And it was during George Bush Senior's term. And I said, "Well, I don't know what we're gonna do to get more money for breast cancer. Maybe we should march topless on the White House." Everybody laughed and then they came up and said, "When do we leave?" (Sheila laughing) And I said, "Oh my God, now we gotta do this." So I came back and we pulled together all the groups. And the AIDS activists had already shown us the way. It was the first time with AIDS that you had patients as advocates, people with the disease. The American Heart Association was started by doctors. The American Cancer Society was started by doctors. Now, you actually had people with a disease doing it. And so women were ready to do that too. And we started the National Breast Cancer Coalition. Which, in a year, raised the funding from 90 million to 300 million. - [Sheila] Wow. - By using money from the Department of Defense, for breast cancer research. - [Sheila] Wow. - So it was a very heady time and it was great. And I knew my favorite thing is to pull people together, to be the catalyst, to light the match and then to get out of the way. 'Cause I knew it had to be run by women with breast cancer and I haven't had breast cancer yet. And so I got it going and then moved out here. - Well, It is really I think one of those things that came from the women's movement, not the breast cancer movement necessarily. But the notion that, and also in the battered women's movement, that maybe the people who helped get it off the ground in the first three minutes were not, themselves, battered women, but immediately you had to have formerly battered women or survivors. - [Susan] That's right. - And I've seen the same thing happen in terms of not just breast cancer, but other issues that affect women. Where they want to take on responsibility for not only their own health, but improving the world. - But somebody has to be the fearless one that starts. That says, "Yeah, we can do this." - [Sheila] Right. - And then once you do that, then you can... And that's sort of always been my role. And then I don't actually wanna run it. I like starting things, I don't really wanna... I don't like doing the day by day stuff. I like to get 'em started and then I get out of the way and go onto something else. - So you left UCLA, you didn't renew your contract at UCLA. - Didn't renew my contract, left. I was burned out from practice and I decided I really wanted to stop breast cancer altogether, instead of doing the same old stuff. And I went to business school, got an MBA at 50, started a company. I had invented a catheter. So all breast cancer starts in the lining of the milk ducts. Okay? And it occurred to me that if milk comes out, we should be able to go in the other direction. And I invented a catheter that you could numb up the nipple and then put into the duct, just a little ways, and wash out cells. And we started a company to commercialize it, which then got acquired. But, I started the company and they realized I didn't wanna run it. So that was another one. And then I also realized that companies are not going to figure it out. They're not interested in the science. They're interested in whatever's gonna be a quick path to profitability, as they say. - [Sheila] Right, right. So I then also started my foundation, the Dr. Susan Love Research Foundation. And that's where we're really doing the, trying to figure out what's going on in the breast. Nobody's really looked at the breast other than as a whole organ. So they just cut the whole thing off. So for example, the breast makes blood into milk, which is pretty magical. What does it do when you're not breastfeeding? Just hang out? Literally as well as figuratively? (Sheila laughs) We don't know, nobody's looked at it. The estrogen levels in the breast fluid are 40 times higher than they are in the blood. Because the breast makes its own estrogen. Can that use that to predict who's gonna get it? We don't know. So these are the kinds of things that we're looking at in our research. And we're taking healthy volunteers on the west side of LA, or people actually come from all over, and sampling different ducts. And trying to figure out the anatomy of the ducts and how this all works. With the idea, one of the ideas is that we can both diagnose it from the ductal fluid and then maybe treat it intraductally. Squirt something down the duct, like Drano, and clean it out, you know? And then you never get the cancer. - Well, it's brilliant, of course, on its way to being brilliant. - And it's getting there. It's actually getting there. I have a new company now, that's working on the therapy. We have data and rats, that if you put chemotherapy down the ducts of rats, you can prevent breast cancer in them with no side effects. None of the rats complained. And I started a new company that's working on that and we've done 15 patients in China that, before they had a mastectomy, where we've put this stuff down and nothing bad happened. So that's coming along. And we're working on a new idea that we're hoping to get funded, where we we'll have some kind of dipstick. So if you massage your breast, particularly in a premenopausal woman, you can get fluid in about 80% of women, a drop or two. And if we had a dipstick with the right marker, you could just, if it turned blue then you'd know you need to get checked out. So we're working on that as well. - That would be wonderful. What a wonderful thing for women to be able to do. And it's something you could do all over the world. Because you know, mammography and MRI and PET scans, you're not gonna do in Africa or rural China. Or even here! - Well, and now, of course, when we have at least one out of every five people doesn't have any insurance. They're not gonna get done here either. - And we don't have good things for, I mean, mammography doesn't work in premenopausal women anyway. So in this country, the problem is everything we invent is expensive because we have a fee for service. We have that kind of economy for healthcare, that drives that. But you really can't just do that. You have to do the whole country, the whole world. - Now, you also then became known for your work having to do with menopause. - [Susan] Right. - And you've said, you've mentioned the word a number of times, so I'm assuming there's a connection, but how did your interest arise in that? And what was your work in that field? - Well, around this time, in the late nineties, yeah, I guess it's the late nineties, I'm trying to think when the book came out. But any rate, all women who went through menopause were being put on hormones. The idea was this was a fountain of youth, It was gonna solve everybody's problems. It would prevent heart attack, strokes, Alzheimer's, everything. And I was asked about it a lot because there was a lot of data suggesting it might increase breast cancer. And was that true? Wasn't that true? And the women who had breast cancer wanted to know, can I go back on hormones? And people were actually treating women who had breast cancer with hormones at that time. And so I looked into it and found much to my astonishment, there was no data. That nobody had really done any hard studies to show that this was safe, to put a whole generation of women on hormones. And so I wrote a book about that. And I went around to all these scientists and they all agreed with me. And they said, "But I'm so glad you're doing this 'cause somebody needs to do it. And I don't wanna put up with the shit. I don't wanna get the flack that's gonna happen by the person who comes out doing this." So fearless again, I did the book. And I got a lot of problems. I was asked to debate. The gynecologists really hated me. And I got asked to debate at the American College of OBGYN. Seven in the morning, 3000 people there, all not on my side. (both laughing) But the guy I debated, it was his to lose and he lost it. Because the whole thing was an ad hominem attack about what a bad person I was. And I just did science. And I said, "You know, it might work, it might not. But we really shouldn't put a whole generation of people on this without finding out." - So essentially all you were saying, was that there was insufficient data. - [Susan] Yeah. - Yeah. - And that we needed to go slower. And then in 2001, I think it was around then, the Women's Health Initiative finally came out and lo and behold I was right. There was actually an article in "The New Yorker" prior to this, by Malcolm Gladwell, before he was famous, saying, "How wrong is Susan Love?" That was the title of the article. And then it was very nice when the data showed I was right. That not only did it not help... See the problem was the studies had all been observational. So they took women on hormones and they compared 'em to women who weren't on hormones. And the women on hormones had less heart attacks, strokes, Alzheimer's, bankruptcies, car crashes. And the problem is that they were also higher socioeconomic level, more likely to go to a doctor, which is how they got on 'em, more likely to do prevention, to treat their high blood pressure, to eat a good diet than the women who weren't. So until you had the same number of couch potatoes in each group, you didn't know whether hormones made you healthy or healthy women took hormones. And it turned out to be the latter. So it was great when the news came out. 'Cause it is nice when you're out on a limb like that, to be propped. - Well, absolutely. And it's interesting to me how easily experimental everyone has been with women's lives. - [Susan] Oh, absolutely, and still to this day. - And how certain they are about this being the thing or that being the thing. And I think I was thinking when you were saying you actually spent too much time, in other people's opinion, talking to your breast patients. - [Susan] Right, right. - Because not only, I think, to get information for yourself, but to give information so that they can make a better judgment. - [Susan] Right. And we were all told, and it wasn't only cosmetic, I think, this hormone thing. I think that- - [Susan] No, we were told it was gonna make us healthy. - Women were told that they were deficient without these hormones. And when the body stopped making them, they needed to add them in. - [Susan] Well, that's why it's called hormone replacement therapy. - Exactly, right. - And menopause was called estrogen deficiency disease. - Right, as though something terrible had happened to us. And we were less than what we had been and needed to replace it. - Be fixed, yeah. So which was really implying premenopausal women are normal, postmenopausal women are abnormal and need to be fixed back. And then my favorite thing was, you say, "Well, menopause has been going on forever, so how could this be?" "Oh, well at the turn of the century, everybody died at 40" That's what they would say. - So they didn't even get to menopause. - So they never got to menopause. And now we've artificially prolonged life, so we have to prop it up. Well, the problem is, it's true that at the turn of the century, the average life expectancy was 40, but it was an average, you know? You add up the column of figures. Well, there were a lot of zeros 'cause it was infant mortality and- - [Sheila] Right, which means there were a lot of 80s too. - That's right, and there were always. George Washington's mother was in her 80s when she died. I mean, there were always people who died in their 80s. - Now we had always also heard in the lesbian community that there was some potential about a connection of making this more critical for childless women. Now, less and less in our community are we necessarily childless women. But the theory was that there may be more childless women in the lesbian community. And lesbians became very interested in this issue of hormone replacement, of its relationship to breast cancer, of whether you had ever been pregnant or not, et cetera. - Well, it is true that the younger you are with your first pregnancy, the lower your risk of getting breast cancer. Okay? So for this, teenage pregnancy's actually a good thing. It's probably the only good thing. But the interesting thing is, and the theory is that the breast doesn't really go through its full development until you've been pregnant and are capable of making milk. And so the immature breast tissue is more sensitive to carcinogens. And if you you narrow the window between your first period and your first pregnancy, you'll have less carcinogens. That's the hypothesis. But the problem is that it's actually worse to get pregnant, like I did, at 40 than to never be pregnant at all, for breast cancer. Because, and the way we blow that one away is we say, "Oh, well, by then the mutations have already happened." Really, we have no idea. So the idea that lesbians were at higher risk for breast cancer really comes from that. That women who've never been pregnant are at higher risk than women who've been pregnant young. But they're actually, women who've never been pregnant are at lower risk than women who have been pregnant after 35. - Which is more and more in the population. - And God knows what, I mean, talk about experimentation on women's lives, fertility drugs. We have no safety data on them. Zero. And the fertility doctors don't wanna do the studies. They're laughin' all the way to the bank. They're not gonna do it. Osteoporosis drugs, a whole other place where, the average fracture's 80. 80. And yet we're putting women on drugs at 50 to prevent something that might happen at 80. Anyway, this is the next book. - Well, I was gonna ask you, actually, this is the moment when I was gonna say, "What's next?" - [Susan] Well, right now- - Not only the next book, but sort of where are you in your life now? Are you writing? Are you seeing patients? Are you fielding a million phone calls a day from people that just saw you on Oprah and really need to talk to you? - Well, mostly I'm not seeing patients. I'm really focused on the research. And I'm trying to build up the foundation so that, and we're getting to a point now we're getting enough grants where I can have other people doing the research. I've been doing it all myself. And now I've get some other people so that I can be out there trying to get the money so that people can do it. So I'm focused on the research. I'm trying to push this intraductal approach. Because the best example of how this would work is cancer of the cervix. Within our lifetime easily, our adult lifetime. When we first did pap smears, if you had an abnormal pap smear, you got a hysterectomy. 'Cause we didn't know what else to do. Then we found out you could do something local. Okay, that was good. But because we could get to where it started, we figured out it was caused by a virus. And now my daughter's been vaccinated for cancer of the cervix. My sister had a hysterectomy for cancer of the cervix. That's in less than 30 years, We can get to where breast cancer starts. And so, now, what we do is we cut the breast off if you have pre-cancer. But if we can study it, we could just change the local conditions. Maybe it's a virus. We need to look in the fluid. So that's what's pushing me. And I'm really in a hurry because women are still being diagnosed and dying every day. And it's ridiculous that we're still dealing with this disease. We can stop it. And so that's my biggest mission and everything else sort of fits in around the edges. - Well, of course, except your daughter who you've taken to look for colleges. - Except my daughter! Who's just finished her freshman year in college and havin' a great time. - So it seems like a good life as you look back on it so far, it's only half over. - Right. (laughs) - Well, you know. - [Susan] I've already outlived my mother, so that's good. - That is good. So maybe if you live to be 120 it's half over. - [Susan] Right. - But, really, a lot, a lot, a lot more to go. - [Susan] Right. - Do you feel satisfied with the way your life has gone? Do you think about- - Yeah, I don't look back that often. I just think it's been such a great, exciting ride and I'm always curious to see what's gonna come next. I could never have predicted the sort of zigzags. From the advocacy stuff, starting it, and then the company stuff and then the back to the nonprofit. And it's just been so much fun. And lately we've been working in China and that's a whole other revelation. That I'm always curious to see what's gonna happen next. What's gonna come next? And at the same time... And open, to, I think, to what are the opportunities where you can really make a difference and just fearlessly march ahead. - Well, and I think it's important too, because young women, and young women who are lesbians, still are reluctant sometimes to go into these professions because they feel there'll be so much sort of backwash against them. And like you, I tell them, "You know, so what?" "So what?" - [Susan] Right! - I mean, think of how free you will be, if you're not gonna be part of the club. - Well, exactly. And there's actually a group called Dyke Doctors or Women in Medicine, I think, that meets once a year, different places around the world, or around the country. And the mailing list is probably 600, 700 lesbian physicians. And people are always saying, "Well, should I come out on my application for residency?" I say, "Absolutely, you don't wanna be a resident in a place that doesn't want you. You know, this is your life!" The nice thing about being out is that then you don't get hired by homophobic people. You know? (Sheila laughing) You sort of self-select to the people that really don't care. And so your life is much happier. - Well, I think that's a great place for us to finish. I can't believe the whole hour's gone by already. But, your life is much happier. It's really about being who you are. - [Susan] Absolutely! - And going after whatever it is you wanna do. - And being fearless. What's the worst thing that's gonna happen? It won't work. Oh well, try the next thing. - Exactly. So Dr. Susan Love, thank you so much for being on the show. And thank you for being with us. And remember, it's just about believing in yourself, thinking about things, especially your own health. "Get Used to It." (upbeat guitar music)