Get Used to It: Ep. 131, "Faith"

(typewriter keys clacking) (typewriter keys thunking) (bright music) - Hi, welcome to "Get Used To It." I'm Sheila Kuehl, and I generally am your guide through these nefarious regions, or heavenly regions, or whatever. Why am I talking about nefarious and heavenly? Because we're gonna be talking about spirituality, religion, organized and disorganized, our LGBT community, and way beyond. And I have three wonderful guests to talk to us. It's kind of an end of the year show. If you're watching us on rerun, the show was made in December, 2006, so it was the end of the year then. But you know, a time when people sum up maybe a little bit for themselves about the year and think about the year ahead, and that's exactly what we're gonna do. My three guests today, the Rabbi Denise Eger, founding rabbi of Congregation Kol Ami. Denise, welcome. - Thank you, good to be with you. - Thank you, the Reverend Russell Thornhill of the pastoral staff of the Unity Fellowship of Christ Church, welcome. - Thank you. - Happy to have you here, Russell. - Thank you for having me. - And the Reverend Dan Smith, who's the pastor of the West Hollywood Presbyterian Church. Welcome, Dan. - Thank you. - Well, Denise, let's start with you. We had a kind of a conversation couple days ago about what we might talk about today, and, of course, I'm a little general about it. But I just have a sense that, at the end of the year, a lot of people and a lot of organizations and a lot of communities sort of sum up, and in doing this, kind of thinking about their feelings of content or discontent, of ease or dis-ease. And I'm just wondering, as a spiritual leader, and also as a longtime lesbian activist in the gay and lesbian community, how do you see the way we are these days? Do you see us on the sorta upside, downside? - Well, I think it's natural with the coming of 2007 for people to think about where they've been and where they might like to go. And of course, all of the holidays of this time of year with Christmas, Hanukkah, Kwanza, you know, cause people to really do a lot of reflection. And I think for our LGBT community, it's been a really interesting, and I think, challenging time. We've seen some real defeats at the ballot box. We've seen some success in Arizona. We've seen some success in the courts in New Jersey, and some setbacks here in our own state. So I have a real sense that as we, as I talk to people, that they're a little bit in between right now. That they don't quite know what to expect for the next year. They're hopeful, but I think there's a sense of measured hope because there have been some bruises in the last year. And I can't help but think that that doesn't affect us, affect us spiritually as a whole community. I do think there's been other great strides, though, in terms of the community beginning to take a look at some of the issues that are really facing us. Where there's been more attention paid to the crystal meth addiction issues within the gay men's community. And that is a good thing coming out of that closet. And so, I'm hopeful that, perhaps, we're have a little more sober view, a little more realistic view in terms of thinking about the year ahead. - So it seems kind of obvious to ask, but as you see it in a spiritual community and in a larger community, a person's place in the world, whether the world is accepting them or the world they're in is accepting them, what you read in the paper about yourself. I mean, like so many community, communities of color, women's community, poor people, homeless people, you know, they're thought of as a group, the way you think about yourself, how comfortable you are in the world. I don't even, does that have much to do with your relationship with God though? I mean, do you know? - Well, I think it absolutely does. No matter how you conceive of God, whether as a kind of an amorphous force or source, or as a more individual idea, or as a person, whatever your conception of the divine, I think your place in the world can't help but shape what your connection is, if there's one at all. And I think that when we are grounded and fully accepting of our whole selves, and whatever our lot in life, whatever our station in life, whatever our sexual orientation, if we're truly at peace and truly at home, we can begin to look at the world in a really different way. When we're forced so much to compartmentalize our lives, when we can't have our queer side talk to our work side, our work identity, when we can't be in touch with our biological families, when poverty makes it impossible for us to put one foot in front of the other, no matter what, it's really, really difficult to, I think, find a sense of peace, find a sense of hope. And that's where community comes in, because when you're don't have those things, being part of a spiritual community can help lift you up and carry you even when you don't have a reservoir left. - Well, and especially when you've been, perhaps, let's say, having a little trouble finding a spiritual community. I mean, many of us who grew up in a religion or a spiritual community, a religious community, were sort of cast out or made to feel like we should be cast out or we're barely tolerated. And, you know, at the worst end of that scale, we become the convenient demon that around which the rest of a spiritual community organizes, that is to, you know, to cast us out or to castigate us or. - [Denise] That never feels good either. - No. - I mean, to be the butt of that. - Right. - And we have experienced that, and in some places we still do. But I do think that our community, our queer community, gay and lesbian community, needs to be a little more sophisticated because that's not the whole story anymore. There are many, many places, both gay-centric, (laughs) and theologically, and mainstream that are very welcoming places that truly are accepting, that truly are our allies, and not just in name only. I mean, we saw it in the Jewish community just in the last couple weeks, the debate in the Conservative movement, that's been raging for decades now. And well, maybe the decision wasn't all that those of us on the far activist, you know, (Sheila laughs) would like- - But so typical of the Jews, isn't it, to say, yes to this- - Yes. - and yes to that- - Yes to that. - and you work it out, right? - Exactly, exactly. And that has to do with their internal political process. - Right. - But this, at the end of the day, Conservative Judaism is now poised to ordain openly gay and lesbian people to be clergy. That's a victory. Let's take it, let's celebrate it. - Right. - And so that's a very huge thing. - You know, it's generally when we read about religious folks organizing against us, I mean, really organizing, showing up to testify against legislation like they do in Sacramento, et cetera. It's really not usually Jewish people. I don't know whether I can say why is that because I don't know that the whole Jewish community's more tolerant, but I just get a sense that it's either a larger issue, or, you know, not the biggest issue for the Jewish community. - It's certainly not the biggest issue. But it also, within the Jewish community, in polling that has been done in the Jewish community, more than 75% of Jews, when they're polled, especially in our own state of California, are in favor of gay civil rights. Now, what that all looks like in detail, whether they're ready to call it marriage, let's say. Certainly in terms of military service, they don't understand, Don't Ask, Don't Tell, at all. So the Jewish community understands part of our spirituality, especially in the '50s and '60s for most Liberal Jews, and that's kind of Conservative, Reform, Reconstructionist, which is the majority of Jews in America. Orthodoxy is a very small part of the Jewish community. They just look like they're, they look different. They dress different, most often, and so that stands out. But the Jewish community is, spirituality was theologically based in the notion that social justice was core to our beliefs. And the Jewish community can understand the need for gay and lesbian civil rights under a theological idea of social justice. And I think that's why often that Jews are very open to the ideas of gay civil rights and why they're not necessarily protesting against. There are some, no doubt. We have our fundamentalists just like the Christians do, and they can be vocal, but they're not the majority of the Jewish community. - Well, we'll come back and talked about this because of things like not being able to have a parade anymore, maybe, you know, in some parts of Israel. But let me talk to Russell. - Yes. - Let me move to you if I can because the same sort of question to you. How do you see, not just in the gay and lesbian community, but taking us as a part of a community, and then in a larger sense, how people are feeling about the world, their relationship to God, faith, spirituality. Any way you want to approach this. - We've seen some huge successes in our community this past year, in both the African American community and in the LGBT community, with the new governor, Black governor of Massachusetts, with the transgender woman who holds office now at the Board of Education in Hawaii, "Essence" magazine, a leading Black women's magazine, it's open to everyone, but it focuses on Black women. There was a transgender woman's voice out of women's voices in this magazine, Cookie Fields, who attends our church. You know, so we've seen what's happened in New Jersey, you know, with the same sex relationships, and marriage, and so on. So we've seen some huge successes, but there are still some unloving acts that take place. You know, when people do not want to afford us the rights, same gender loving people the rights as everybody else as it relates to marriage. When people do not, they wanna fight us about whether we should have children or not, you know? I'm a father, and I have four children, four children that love me, and I love them. And, you know, I think we did a great with raising them, and working with them, (Sheila laughing) you know? - Time will tell, hey? - Yeah, time will tell. (Sheila laughing) But there are still some unloving acts that are taking place. You know, when we drive down the streets of Los Angeles, I live in South LA, and there's not a corner that I turn that there isn't someone who's walking the streets, who's staying out at night, who's sleeping on the street corners. Right at our organization, I saw this yesterday, a Minority AIDS Project on West Jefferson Boulevard. I drove up and there was a, there was an encampment that took place right outside our building there, you know? And they have their covering, and shopping carts, and things that were sitting there. Because what's taking place in Los Angeles, we're finding out downtown, they're rebuilding Downtown LA, pushing people out into the communities. And we're finding them more and more, you know, in our communities. I drove up to the church last week on Sunday morning, and these brothers were just sitting right outside on the curb. And it had just rained the night before, you know? And it was pouring down that rain. And they said, "Rev, you know what? We're gonna be out of your way." And I said, "No, no, no, do whatever you need to do." They were hanging their blankets and things up on the walls to allow them to dry. - [Sheila] Sure. - You know, there's not a moment during the week that we don't see someone coming in, who's looking for, who's looking for food, who's looking for a hot cup of soup, and hot coffee, and so on. So while there have been so many successes in our community, there are still acts of unloving experiences that people have. And the way I look at what's happening now, there needs to be a rebirthing of the spirit and the act of love and compassion. You know, we are missing that. And if we are saying, as Christians, if we're saying that we follow Jesus Christ, then there should be something that's rising up in us, this Christ consciousness that rises up in us that says, like he said to his followers, feed my sheep, you know? So when do we take that and enact that in our everyday lives? When do we say I'm here to feed all of my sheep, not just some, but all. - Well, of course, we've seen this kind of tension before in a number of places in the Christian world. In South America, for instance, where you had liberation theology, where some priests were saying, wait a minute, there's a lotta poor people. You know, why is the church hierarchy helping the dictator? And the hierarchy in the church, the Catholic Church saying, there'll be pie in the sky when you die. You know what, you're on earth to suffer, and just live a good life, and it'll get better after you're dead. So the sort of the question of how people show their faith. Because I know from the Russian community in Sacramento is deeply devoted to being homophobic. That is one of their organizing principles. And they come to testify in Sacramento against all these bills, and it gives meaning to their lives. I mean, I can see that it does. And they bring their little children with them to do it. And they must think that they're doing God's work. And yet, how can God's work be hatred? I mean, it really gives us a lot of pause. - [Russell] Isn't there a conflict right there? - It seems to be, to me. - There is a conflict. You know, where we stand at Unity, and what we teach in the community is to love one another the way Christ loves us. And we talk about that. We talk about that and teach that constantly. And that is taught everywhere I go. Even when I'm sitting in front of my heterosexual brothers, and I'm sitting there, and I know that they have some attitudes about gay men. But you know what, brother? I'm here doing the kind of work that you're doing for our community as it relates to HIV and AIDS, as it relates to poverty and homeless, and so on. That's the kinda work that I'm doing. So you have one issue because you don't like who I sleep with. Well, who are you sleeping with, you know? And I do have to say to people, that's none of your business. You know, that's not our business today. Our business is to feed somebody, to clothe somebody, to make sure that your church is stepping up to the plate to talk about HIV and AIDS in the church. 'Cause as you well know, we still have that issue in the Black churches, you know? So when they want to, when they wanna come to us, and come with homophobic rhetoric, you know, I'm saying to them, but we're talking about the lives of Black people. That's what - But- - we're talking about here. - when you say we still have the issue in the churches, you mean of homophobia. - We still have the issue of homophobia in the church. We still have the issue of people not addressing HIV and AIDS in the church. - Yes, I wanna talk more about that. - We still have the issue of megachurches having homeless people right around their churches and not opening their doors. And so we still have those issues in our community. And that's not too far from where my church is. You know, I could go right down the street, and there'll be church doors locked up good and tight, and there'll be homeless people right there. - Mm-hmm, well, Dan, how do you see these issues? I mean, you've heard what we've sort of been talking about. Although, I think we could probably have a nine hour show and not even begin, you know, to talk about it. But I like the large theme of spirituality, of religion, of, again, as I say, of people's ease or dis-ease in the world. How do you see it from your point of view in your church? - Well, I think we're at the dawn of a new era. I really do. And both in the global community and in the gay and lesbian community. And starting first in our community, for so long, religion has been anathema. And it's because so many people were deeply hurt by the institutionalization of religious belief and did not know how to find an alternative to that. But since the war in Afghanistan and Iraq, and since we have confronted religious fundamentalism in Christianity, in Islam, and in Judaism, people are beginning to see that this does not work. You cannot take ancient texts of thousands of years ago and expect to be able to interpret them literally in the 21st century. And I think that that is probably one of the graces of this experience that's beginning to dawn on people, that if you're gonna take spirituality seriously, you have to be able to take the story and make it real and alive in the time in which you live. In my particular traditions, which are the mainline Protestant traditions, which would primarily be the Presbyterian church, Methodist, Lutheran, and Episcopal church, we've all been in lockstep, very, very shy and afraid of the gay issue. But our Episcopal brothers and sisters have totally broken outta the race. In the Presbyterian church, we did it on the ordination of women. Once we started ordaining women, the whole suit followed, and the same is going to happen with the Episcopal church. They set the tone a few years ago with the ordination of a bishop who is openly gay, Gene Robinson. And then just this year, made absolute history in the whole of Christianity by electing the first woman primate of the church. Now, for most of us, if you don't have a sense of apostolic succession, that doesn't mean much. (Sheila laughs) But what the church just said for the first time in- - Not counting Pope Joan, of course. - That's right. 2,000 years, is that a direct, direct descendant of Christ is a woman, and this is a radical step forward for Christianity. My hunch is that it will be the more progressive branches that are able to move forward with that. And as we deal with gender, and as we deal with sexual orientation, things begin to get much easier in terms of recognizing that the ice has been broken. The reaction to the Episcopal church has been very minimal, and we've all lived under this fear in the church that if the church moves on any of these issues, that, you know, the thing'll split apart. Well, it isn't, and I think that's a great sign. So I think we see a country that's saying, all right, religion is playing a significant role in the global community and in our local communities, and we have to find new ways to enter into this dialogue. Many, many liberals, of which we probably all represent that political group, left the faith commitments behind and got clobbered in the previous two US elections. And so people began to, I think, realize, well, you know, what is it? Well, it's not the conservative value system that got them elected. It's that they have a strong sense of morality. And we have a strong sense of progressive morality, too, that's finally beginning to be articulated in new ways, and in new spiritual languages around justice, around health care as not just a political issue, it is a basic spiritual issue. Wellness and healing are central to every Christian and Jewish believer's faith. And today, we do that through medicine, hospitals, health care. So all of those issues are coming up in a new way for us, and I'm extremely excited about them. - Course, the Episcopal church hasn't exactly been sort of skating along on thick ice on the issue of sexual orientation. I mean, there's been the threatened split, the churches that have said we're leaving. - Right. - The American church and, you know, we're going to completely ignore it, or not have a conversation with it. And simply the fact that we've been the community kinda in the middle of the griddle in discussion in so many of the mainstream congregations, and churches, and sort of the national, I think all the ones you named, in every convocation, in every conference, or convention, there's a resolution that is, you know, hotly debated. - That's right. - So how do you think that's affected the experience of the people who are participating in these faiths? - Well, I have said in my own tradition, the Presbyterian church, that the gay and lesbian contingent and advocacy groups are so poorly funded. We never could've bought the kind of education that the right wing has given us because they never stop. (Sheila and Russell laughing) They never stop. Every single year, they are the ones that have actually got us as far as we've gotten. And I think that does tend to happen, and it's going to happen around marriage, equal marriage rights. The more people hear these crazy, crazy statements, and recognize that they don't relate to the reality of who our heterosexual families are, the more that's gonna fall apart. So I think even though there has been this tremendous resistance, it has been an educational piece. And I think if they, I know for a fact, if they had dropped the issue, we wouldn't, in the Presbyterian church, we'd never be where we are today. And I have a feeling if we didn't have this force, say, right now against marriage, equal marriage, so strongly, that we wouldn't have as much happening on the other side of this pendulum, that says, let's keep moving towards it. And once we hit the tipping points, then the things begin to change. - Well, and another thing you said, though, about people feeling sort of like, well, my faith is rejecting me, I'm gonna reject my faith. Because why would I stay in a place where I'm not wanted? But I think all of you have really mentioned, there's a sort of a, there's a damaging aspect to that, just to the person. And it's not just, oh, I'm hurt. It's, oh, I'm deeply wounded, and I don't even know it. Because the sort of the basic thing that we need in our life are relationships. You know, our relationship maybe with another person, maybe not, relationship with our family, relationship with God. And when you're rejected by the voice of God, whatever that is, then, of course, you wanna say forget that. But what I hear you saying, and also, I think, Russell, and what you were talking about in the spirit and the acts, coming back to compassion or rebirth, do you see that people, it's not just reclaiming your faith, because there is a political aspect to it that you were talking about, where we wanna reclaim the value, but we have values, and we wanna be able to articulate those values. But do you see that it's difficult, given our community having been so rejected, for people to pick it up again and kind of get engaged? I don't wanna call on you like this is a class, but, you know, I mean. - The damage in our community has been tremendous. You know, we cannot minimize that. There's not a day that goes by or a Sunday that goes by that people aren't coming in broken because of what they heard, what somebody said to them, that somebody said that you're damned and going to Hell, and so on. We have, what we call in our church, affirmation at the top of our service. And we let our congregation know that we have to affirm our lives every single day, affirm who we are. It's important for the people in the community, both heterosexual people and the LGBT community, to see me as a person of faith, walking in knowing my grace with God is real, and it's sufficient. And I can walk through the community just as I am. And when I come to my heterosexual clergy brothers, they know who I am. I'm not backing down or backing away. So when you hug me, you know who you're hugging and embracing. (Sheila laughs) And because of who I am, it just helps to begin to break down walls, and then other people see that and say, okay, maybe there's a chance for me. You know, maybe there's an opportunity for me. And what's important in the work that we do is that we are constantly talking and talking about our life experiences so people can see that God is real, that God really did take this person, you know, who's gay, who's a father, who has sexual addictions, really took this person and brought him to a whole new place of spiritual understanding and awareness. And it's important for people to see that. You know, I don't wanna hide behind a wall or hide behind a podium like others do and then espouse something that's not really real for my life. You know, I need to be able to express and share what's real so that those folks who are damaged and hurt can say, oh, there is a possibility. - I think that's the challenges for gay and lesbian people to have their humanity affirmed because oppression basically denies our humanity. And everything in society is stacked against us and is reinforced about, that's just basic equality, says you're not really fully human. The ability not to marry, or to make a family, and the state reinforces that idea. So you can't, really, is that right? Is that what people, we were meant to be alone? I don't think so. So by being in community with one another, I think that is another antidote to the oppressions that we have had to experience as a community. And I think when we do come together as a community, that we uplift one another. I said to someone just the other day that, you know, even if you're not the strongest believer, even if your faith isn't so good and you come with lots of questions and lots of doubts and lots of anger and lots of woundedness, that sometimes the answer to the prayers is just being with the people. And that in that relationship building that we can do, even if it's just talking to your neighbor in the pews, even if you don't really believe what's being said, or what the prayers say, that there's a healing that happens in being in one another's presence and supporting each other. So for me, that's the value of, for those that say, you know, I don't want, I don't want anything to do with religious institutions. I don't care whether they're gay and lesbian-centered religious institutions, or accepting institutions, or welcoming mainline ones. I don't want anything to do with it. They've wounded, they hurt us, and why would I wanna sit there? You need to sit there because all of us need that extra human connection, and that's where the spirit is and dwells. At least in Judaism, the Shekhina, the divine spirit on earth dwells in the interaction and study between two people. And so it's that moment that I think that our community's hungry for, and really wants, and why we have to affirm one another's humanity, even when society does things to say you're not fully human. And when we can articulate that and have the backbone and the spine and the fortitude and the strength to say, no, we are fully human, we are made in God's image, that's when we can begin to really redress the society at large. - And I think that's one piece that we need strongly. One of our faith traditions to just come out and name that gay and lesbian people are created by God as gay and lesbian. That's the theological statement that we've not been able to publicly state yet. So we get into this whole sin, brokenness stuff, and normalcy versus non-normalcy. I always say to people, when you view the totality of the diversity of the whole creation, how could you assume God could only create heterosexually? This is insane. (Sheila laughing) You are talking about the most magnificent, diverse creation beyond human conception. Well, of course, gay and lesbian people are part of the diversity of that creation. And that's the spiritual thing that has to be said by somebody. And I think sooner or later, probably Reform Judaism may be the first again to say it- - Said it, (indistinct) said it. - to put it out there that clearly, this is what we're talking about. But in my experience, it's also, this is also a generational issue. And our younger gay and lesbian community has grown up now in a completely different environment. They have known openly gay people their whole lives. They know of good religious communities that are healthy for them, and they know when religious stuff is unhealthy for them. And most of my young folks in their 20s and 30s will just not even bother with religious institution that is not healthy for them and seek out intentionally religious and spiritual experiences that are healthy for them. And so I see that as a tremendous hope. - [Denise] I mean, even in the Jewish community, one of the big things we've been really dealing with are transgender issues. - Right. - I mean, gay and lesbian's already normative in the Reform Jewish community (Sheila laughs) to be kinda frank about it. We're dealing with the issues of how do we really fully acknowledge the humanity of transgender folks. And we have a number of rabbinic students who are transgender and really helping to shape and help to reformulate this message, kinda gay and lesbian's old hat already. Which is kind of miraculous, if you think about it, that it could be so normalized, and that so many, at least in the Reformed Jewish community, gay and lesbian Jews join mainstream synagogues all the time with no bar to their involvement or their spiritual life or their leadership. - Well it's, of course, we always find that there's still a place in ourselves where we have to dig out the things we believe, and didn't even know we believed. You know, where you take them out. I think that's been the great thing. It was funny when you said that, really, the Episcopalians are, you know, leading the way, but the right wing is the one that really sort of got all this going because they make us talk about it. You have to sort of take out and look at your own prejudice. And I think the LGBT community, when it was the LG community and they weren't so sure about the Bs or the Ts, it was kind of like, wait, I'm doing the same thing, you know, that other people have done to me. But I wanted to ask you, too, in the early days of the movement, it seemed as though that that joyfulness, that spirituality to a great extent was not really in the religious communities. It was really in the organizing. And I don't mean just politically. I mean, it could be, you know, a club where you just got together, and, you know, talked about issues or sewed a quilt or whatever it was. And, of course, we had to do that, a lot of quilt after the AIDS pandemic began. But there was a joy, as you were talking about, in the community of it. Have you seen that continue into the religious community? Or do you see the religious community active in the activist community? How do you see the relationship, if any? - Yeah, we continue, I know in our work, continue to be involved in both the faith community and in the social justice and civil rights work. You know, that's where we find our work in the community. Because we're coming up against people from all sides, you know, from every area in the community, and we can't be afraid to talk to anyone, any place. You know, today I may be sitting with my brothers and sisters, my ordained brothers and sisters who are clergy. And then tomorrow, we'll be sitting with Al Sharpton and his new civil rights group that he's working to bring to South Central Los Angeles. You know, and they have another mindset about some things, you know? So we have to be ready to walk in all of those communities. And again, it's in walking as who we are. There are people, and I have to use the words, transgender, just like you said, we have to use those words because people wanna dismiss transgender, just like they wanna dismiss women, and they wanna dismiss gay men and lesbian, they wanna dismiss us. So when we're in those circles, it's about saying exactly who it is that we represent and who's coming to the table. So when you talk to Reverend Russ Thornhill, you're talking to Reverend Russ Thornhill who's gay, who's lesbian, who's bisexual, who's transgender. I bring all of that to the table, so don't think that you can speak, you know, in an ugly fashion towards one or the other, and I'm not gonna respond to that. But I think that we have to be able to walk in all of those, in all of those arenas to continue to raise their consciousness. I think that the more we are there, from what I see and the work that I do, the more that we are there as who we are, it continues to raise people's consciousness about what we are all about. And we are really are wanting to partner with you and work with you to make this whole society and the work that we're doing better. - I think, too, there is a joyfulness, though, certainly in the religious communities that are gay-affirming and gay-centric, gay and lesbian-centric. I see that people are getting healed from that woundedness when they risk talking about their need for healing, when they get involved and roll up their sleeves in this kind of meshing of social justice and social activism through one's spirituality, which, in all three of our communities of faith, is very much a part of the work that the three of us do. We work together all the time, the three of us, whether, on a whole host of issues. So I do think you see this sense of peace that comes through. And then through that, a sense of joyfulness. And I will say this, I also think that as we've come through this AIDS and HIV journey, and where we are today, and there are early experiences of so much death of so many of our brothers and sisters, of our lovers, of our family members, of our children, that that shaped a generation of us that are sitting here today together. And while the 20s and 30-somethings cohort of our community hasn't experienced it in quite the same onslaught that we all did, that we have many scars still, those of us of that generation. - Well, and, of course, some of it's so familiar. I mean, there's such a really sort of rising numbers in the African American community and other communities of color. I just saw "In the Continuum," a wonderful play the other night at the Kirk Douglas Theatres, two women who wrote the play and perform it, a African woman, American woman. And one woman plays all the African women, and one woman plays all the American women, and it's about Black women and AIDS and hiding. You know, and it's so familiar in its way. - [Russell] Yes. - That I think the audience was quite variegated, and very identifying with it. 'Cause I think the issue of hiding, which is something we're all very familiar with from the old days. - Right. - And then it just broke open, you know, because if you had AIDS, you must have been gay at a certain time. - [Russell] Right. - And that's been a difficult thing too. But that denial stuff. - The hiding is still, the hiding is still part of- - And the denial's still there. - It is. - But I do think within communities of faith, there's a different way to perhaps begin to deal with it than some of the hiding that goes on. And along with that side is also the side about the numbers of children that are now part of our community and the way that has transformed who we are as a people, gay people. And so, within communities of faiths, because I think parents, GLBT parents, are actually hungering for, how do I give my child some spiritual values in a supportive and positive environment. So I think there's been a joyfulness also in that as well, and the expression of our families, both with the longtime survivors of HIV and AIDS over against also our children and the way we celebrate our GLBT families. - [Sheila] Right. - Those two nexuses together. - The other piece that the religious institutions bring is that especially just the three of us, we have outlasted all of the AIDS organizations in this town, most of the original political action organizations, and we have seen and been through tremendous history and have seen tremendous breakthroughs. And I think when we look back and see how far we have come in, really, in terms of social justice theory, a relatively short period of time, that there is a joy and there is a sure knowledge, especially when you have the added faith component in it, that we are on the right track. And it's only a matter of a short period more time, and the full equality issues will be there. My hope is that we then continue in the action and activist community to keep the journey going on on other concerns. But I think we will soon be at the point in American religious and cultural life where we will see full equality legislated and constitutional. That the Supreme Court will no longer allow the craziness of separate but equal doctrines. It just, it won't, it won't last. - Yeah, one of the things that you talked about was AIDS in the Black community. And while, you know, I work with many of my White brothers and I see how they're fighting, and they're in the trenches and working, and how the numbers have gone down, while the numbers in the Black community continue to rise, and on every, men, women, children, every single level. There was a report that just came out from the AIDS Coordinator's Office that talked about the relationship, and this, and we've heard this before, but the relationship between heterosexual men who have sex with men, they do not identify in any other way, heterosexual men who have sex with men and transgender women. And I'm excited to go into the new year to be able to bring this to the faith table in the Black community to be able to talk about this. And I've talked to some of my brothers about this, because it's time for us to talk about heterosexual men who are hiding in your churches now. They're hiding in your churches. They're having sex with men in your churches, outside, wherever, on the street corners. They're not people that are gonna come into any of our, into any of our faith centers, you know. They're somebody that I probably will not ever see because they're so, you talk about deep in the closet. There's probably about three closets that they're deep in, you know? And then they're having sex, and it's unprotected sex, and so on. And there's so much work that we have to do there. But one of the things that I found, and I wanna celebrate this, is that I'm finding a resolve amongst heterosexual people and gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender people who wanna work together on this issue. Even though they still, my brothers will sit in the front, Reverend Russ, I don't agree about some of the things that you believe in, and gay issues, and that sorta thing. But we do believe on the health of our community, and we are willing to come together. So I take some joy in that piece. So when I come to the table, I know that we're gonna talk about HIV and AIDS, and how it's impacting our community, and most importantly, what kinda new conversations do we need to have about it to make a change and to make a shift in the community. - Well, there's such a relationship to shame there, though. - [Russell] Yes, there is. There is. - To being shamed, of being ashamed. - Yes, yes. - And you know, and the denial coming out of that in a way it's, you have to understand it before you can deal with it. But it's all the same as homophobia. No wonder, you know, a straight brother who says, well, this is, you know, it's not really me or any straight person. I mean, this is, goes on in every community, saying, well, you know, it's not really me. Not thinking about the consequences 'cause you don't want to, because you feel ashamed or you will be shamed. And I think a lotta people felt, when they left their churches, and even, I think, in the Jewish faith, that I don't wanna be ashamed anymore. They're making me feel ashamed. You know, I will leave or I will hide. - There are some brothers that took a stand in the community. And if you all take a drive down Crenshaw Boulevard, going south from King Boulevard down to Jefferson, there's a huge church there on Crenshaw. And right outside of that church, there's a billboard that says God loves gay men. - [Sheila] Hmm. - And it's from brothers who put it in the community because of their experiences in that particular faith center that's there, you know? But it's just blazing. It's almost blazing in lights. And that's huge. It doesn't talk about HIV, it doesn't just talk about AIDS. It just talks about brothers' feelings about their relationship with God. - You know, it's so interesting to me. I was thinking about when you talk about affirmations, and we all, I think in all the faith communities, affirmation is a big part of it. Not just, not really self-love, but you know, I'm okay. But I'm okay because God thinks I'm okay. Which is a kind of an interesting concept in a way, you know? Like, I will not be okay if God doesn't think I'm okay. 'Cause a lot of our struggle has been convincing other people that God doesn't hate us, speaking for Him, of course. It must be possible to live without thinking God thinks well of you. But it's become such, no, it's always been such a central part, I guess, of identity. Do you think that's, I don't even know what the question is there. But it just- - Well, I mean, for all of our traditions, (Sheila laughs) we believe, I mean, we believe in a creator, God. You know, I think if we had a Buddhist here on the panel, you might have a very different kind of conversation because the creator God or goddesses are not necessarily a part of that tradition. So, you know, from a kind of Judeo-Christian viewpoint, it's because that's very much grounded in a part of what we believe, in the idea that God created human beings in God's image, so that becomes the table of discourse. But I think it is interesting that, you know, that we, as a community, that our woundedness often comes from what other people say about us. But that's kind of a natural thing. If you watch children on a play yard, it's really important to have your peers' approval. - Yeah, yeah. - It really, really is. - [Sheila] So we haven't really grown up. - We haven't really grown up (Sheila and Russell laughing) in many ways. But you know, I wanna just say, kind of thinking about a little bit about you were talking about, Russell, is something that gave me really great hope. A rabbinic colleague of mine who recently took a group of teenagers to Washington to study public policy issues from a Jewish spirituality perspective, and the kids got to pick what issues they wanted. And these were all high school kids. The top four issues that the kids picked, 16 and 17 year olds, was reproductive rights, GLBT rights, AIDS, and education and the lack of funding for good education for everybody. These were the four issues most important to teenagers. That gives me great hope- - Wow, that is great promise. - that in 2007, 2008, because these are 16 year olds, they vote in a couple of years. - [Sheila] Right. - That the work that we've been doing, and our GLBT community has been doing, for alow these 30 plus years since Stonewall, is starting to pay off in a much younger group. And as you said, Dan, I think it is generational, and it should give your viewers some great hope about what the work that we've all been doing together, whether in the pews, or the work that you do, Sheila, in Sacramento, or the work that our AIDS organizations have done, the work that our gay and lesbian political organizations have done, the works that our centers have done, very important, and that we shouldn't discount the young folks. And the importance of us doing and working with them and getting our messages out because this group of kids gave me great hope that those issues are right there on the table and of important to them, and those are our issues. - I worked with a group of people last week, and we were in one of my classes, and we were talking about homosexuality and the Bible. And I had to start out by educating them because of the way they were previously educated. I had to educate them on how to read the scripture because we take a look at Genesis, and Leviticus, and Romans, and that sorta thing, and we see it in, and people look at in such a disparaging way because that's how it's been presented. But they don't take a look at the historical critical aspect of those scriptures and say, what does it mean to the people at the time? And then ask yourself, what does it mean to me today? And there are some wonderful scriptures in the Bible, you know, for mothers who are asking themselves, did I make a mistake? The Word says that you were created in your mother's womb, you were covered by God. You know, you're made in God's image. And like, there's some beautiful words in there that speak to our spirits. And in some faith centers, people don't always hear that, you know? They don't wanna hear, when they wanna talk about, when they wanna talk about AIDS, and when they wanna talk about homosexuality, and so on, they wanna go to those parts of the Bible that are gonna speak in a very disparaging and ugly way. But there are other ways to read the scripture, you know? When it says that you are precious in My sight and I have loved you. - Well, you know, it was also interesting what Denise said about children in the community. 'Cause we've seen, I think some wag called it the Gayby Boom, that we actually did 180 on this, I think, where we said stop thinking of ourselves as people who were childless and would be childless, to people who would say, no, darn it. I'm gonna have a family. Whatever it takes, however I do it, I don't care. We're gonna have a family. But your thought that because of the children, at least from what I heard you say, now, we're thinking about, well, how do we give them a spiritual basis, education, you know, foundation? Well, maybe I better go see if there's a community of faith that is accepting, or even better, you know, that is joyful about us. And it's interesting if the children bring us back into our communities as well. And I guess you have seen, in some sense, that they are. 'Cause you wanna kinda give 'em a good foundation, you know? - Right, and you wanna be in a community where your family's gonna be honored and celebrated and recognized, and you want to pass on those traditions and values that you have as a gay or lesbian person, even if your child isn't gay or lesbian. - Yes, exactly. - But that they should be opening and affirming as well. So, I mean, we've certainly seen it here at Kol Ami. You know, we have a lot of children, and we have religious school every Sunday morning. We have to help educate our kids. And we have a real diversity of families and children. And interestingly enough, as we have added those kinds of programs, there are a lot of heterosexual people that want their children to share those values. - Mm-hmm. - Right. - And our Sunday school classrooms have a significant number of families that are headed by heterosexual people because they want their children to embrace that same message 'cause they're not finding that message in those churches and synagogues either. And so they wanna be here. And to me, that's a measure of success. - Yes, yeah, well, the same thing happens at our church. When the families come in and bring their children, bringing their children to the Sunday school or have their children sit with them during the service. And my son comes in, and he's heterosexual, and he loves his dad, you know? He loves his, and I love him. But you know, he loves his dad, and we have a great relationship. But we see that in our families at Unity Fellowship Church, that come in and bring their children, and we're always challenged to ask ourselves, okay, how do we do this different for our children? How do we do it so that they don't grow up with the stuff that we grew up with? You know, how do we ensure that they get different messages? And that's where that affirmation comes in all the time. So it becomes something that the parents remember to be able to share with their own children about their journeys. - Right. - And we can be sure that Mary Cheney's pregnancy is gonna be revolutionary. (Sheila and Russell laughing) I mean, this, now, we have personalized exactly what we're talking about. - [Russell] Yes. - And all of those, you know, people who interact with the vice president and his wife, and all right, now it's personal. And that's exactly what we've been saying, you know? And here we are. - And you know, despite the fact that we see the bumper stickers that say Cheney-Voldemort in '08. A very unkind cut, I'm sure. Although, possibly appropriate. He said, we're looking forward to the birth of our grandchild. - Absolutely. - Right, right. - You know, and I thought. - As he should have. - He should be saying that. - Oh, of course, I mean. - As he should have. - He should be saying that. - That's our sixth grandchild. - But I expected worst, you know, from them. - Right, no, he's put them right, right in line with the other five, and that's exactly what every parent does, you know? I mean, it's fabulous. - Yeah. - It's just- - Well, I don't know if it's exactly what every parent does, you mean- - Well, we hope every parent would do, yeah. - Would do. - Right, of course. - But it does send a strong message, even for him to be able to say that and embrace his daughter and embrace that baby. That's gotta send a message, subliminal or otherwise, to other parents who are challenged. You know, that's why we use that passage and we talk about it. You were created in your mother's womb. I say that constantly to people because people are always coming in and they're counseling. And what happened? We had a situation, I think two weeks ago. The mother called up and she said, "My son is gay and I don't know what to do, but he just came out to me." - [Sheila] Mm-hmm. - And we were so blessed that myself and another member of our pastoral staff at Unity Church were there. And they came in, and the son went to speak to the youth pastor, and the mother came in to speak to me, who's a father, you know? And we had wonderful dialogue around that, you know? So she was able to walk out of there feeling good and whole about herself. And I didn't make a mistake, and you know what? I love my son. And her comment to me was, "I don't care about the gay thing. I want him to use condoms. I want him to go to school and get an education." That that was her concern. - Right, right. - And I said- - Well- - you're exactly right. - the commonness, I think, of the experience, of all experiences has really been, since people have been out, it's possible for straight people to see how common many, how we have many of these experiences in common. And I think, you know, a way of losing fear. And I remember many men who only had daughters saying to me in the '70s, I'm for women's equality. I don't want anybody saying my daughter can't be, you know, a CEO or the principal or whatever. It's like the personal experience, and when we first started National Coming Out Day, I still think that was one of the most amazing, talk about self-affirming. You know, one of the most amazing things, tactics, I don't know what you wanna call it. Because then people said, or they could no longer say, well, I don't know one. - [Russell] Right. - 'Cause they all knew one, if they knew you. - [Russell] Exactly, exactly. - I remember when I was first elected, and people said, "Well, what's the value of your being there?" And I said, "Well, nobody can ever say on this floor again, they never met a gay person." - Right, and that, I think, (Russell laughs) is one of the things we need to give Mary Cheney tremendous credit for. This didn't just happen accidentally. And there obviously- - Well, that's true. - was deep conversation. She could've waited two years for her dad to get outta office. - Right, right. - But she chose now. And that, I would've loved to have been a fly in the living room (Russell and Sheila laughing) to hear the conversation- - Hear the conversations. - and knowing that this was going to have tremendous impact on a core constituency group of her father and the president's friends. - Well, we only have a few minutes left, so let me ask you each very quickly, if you don't mind. What, if you can say quickly, what makes you feel most hopeful this year and into the next, I guess. Denise, I'll ask you first. - Well, I guess I hope that the season of peace that we talk about at this time of year will be one that really comes to pass. Our world's been in such turmoil. I spent the summer in Israel during the Lebanon War, got to experience firsthand the pain on both sides of the border, to see daily what's going on in Iraq and Afghanistan, and what's going on in Darfur region of Sudan, and the difficulties there. I really am praying for peace in the coming year. And I'm praying that our GLBT community can, by our actions and by our coming together and our continued work for social justice, will help be a leader in creating a more peaceful world. - Great, Russell. - Yeah, my hope for us is that we would really be able to pick up the mantle and live in the spirit and act of love and compassion. You know, that's the work that Jesus did. He didn't go around and turn people away. Not at any point. And when he did, somebody pulled on his coattails. You know, but he opened up his arms to everyone. He said, I see the multitudes, and I have compassion. And can we, as a community, you know, all of us as a community, not separating one out by labels, where everyone in the community have a spirit of a rebirthing, if you will, of compassion and of love. And our motto from Archbishop Carl Bean, that's been with us for 25 years, you know, that we've been doing this work, is that God is love and God's love is for everyone. And it is for everyone. It's not just for a select few, but it's for the one that's on the street right now that we're all gonna pass when we drive out in our cars. There's gonna be somebody pushing the shopping cart, and we can just lift our hands to them, and God's love is for you, too, you know? So everyone gets that feeling. - [Sheila] That's good, Dan? - And I have a strong hope that we're coming to a new realization as we enter the 21st century and a new millennia that we have to find new ways to relate to one another. The politics of division, the concept that you can win peace by fighting a war is not working. It has not worked for over 45 years now, and it gets worse and worse with each war that we enter into. And I think that is what is being said in many, many different languages, in many different ways right now. I don't think we have the answer yet as to what the way is, but I guarantee you, it'll be rooted in human rights and justice. If we could deal with the issue of how we raise the quality of life for all people, I bet we would be able to find a lot more peace than what we're currently experiencing. And I think we're getting there. I think that light has dawned on us that the way that we've been working, especially in the last half of the 20th century, isn't going to work anymore. - Well, thanks to all three of you. Thank you very, very much. - Thank you for having us. - Thank you for being with us. I mean, many messages and thoughts, but peace, compassion, love, get used to it. (bright music)