Get Used to It: Ep. 115, "Voices of Our Lives: Alec Mapa"

(Keyboard typing) (bright music) - Hi, welcome to Get Used To It. I'm Sheila Kuehl, your hostess. I always like that, I just think that's so nice. But what that means is welcome to the show because we always have such interesting discussion, such great guests and today of course is no exception. Today, we have one of the people that, we sometimes interview people alone for a series that are kind of like stories of our lives. And today, we've got a great one for you. Alec Mapa, who is a Broadway star, I'm gonna say star because M Butterfly was a major hit show that he did, other Broadway work, off Broadway touring companies and now he's in a very successful UPN series called Half and Half, but that's not the half of it. The reason Alec is on this show as well is because he's an out and proud man, community activist, and one of the funniest and sweetest guys you'll ever meet. And there, do you feel welcome? - Well, the pressure. (Sheila laughs) Broadway star, funny, sweet, yeah. - Funny, community activist. That's very important. - That's right. - But welcome Alec. I'm really glad you're here. - I'm excited about being here. - Well, I'm big fan. - It's a beautiful set. - Well, it is sort of interesting actually, you know, you only see the set, the rest is all stage, but you're used to that. - [Alec] Absolutely. - Well, I'm really happy that you're here and one of the things I like to do people that I admire, but only know sort of a part of their lives that's been sort of the new public part of it, just kind of go back earlier and find out kind of, how did you become the person that you are? - How much time do you have? - We have about 56 minutes. - Okay, well I'll talk fast. - Okay, that'd be good. Let's start with, you know, where you were born and where you grew up and how you grew up, more importantly. - I grew up in San Francisco. I was a kid during the 1970s, which is a very interesting time. The 70's in San Francisco is often referred to as the last 10 minutes of the Roman empire. It was a really, really exciting kind of Armstedt mopping kind of time. And that was kind of different. The world outside my house was completely different, 'cause I was raised in a very conservative Filipino Catholic home. So, you know, we would go to like the caster street fair as a family during the day and see this really kind of, you know, wild kind of atmosphere and then go home to a very conservative atmosphere. So I think that's kind of how I grew up kind of like seeing the world outside my home and kind of being at odds with it personally until I kind of came out. - Did your parents see that as well? I mean, it seems as though the way you construct a home to kind of protect your children and make sure they grow up with certain values and then the outside world is all clamoring with different values. - [Alec] Right. - Was that a conflict for them too? - Do you know? I think that, you know, my parents were, they were very conservative and I think it was okay for other people to be gay, but you know, it was different when it was, you know, within our own family and certainly my mother had a lot of gay relatives who were out, so she was kind of cooler about it. She has a sister who's gay and, but my dad pretty much did everything he could to discourage it. You know, I wanted to take ballet, you know, isn't that what every father wants to hear? - Yes, of course. - I wanna take ballet, but you know, so he made me take judo, you know, it's like they were constant kind of steering me towards the kind of more butcher boyish activities, which, you know, I was always bored with and didn't wanna do so, yeah. - What was their work? What work did your folks do? - They were both travel agents. - [Sheila] Uh. - Yeah. So that was fun 'cause we got to go everywhere. - Well, that would also make a difference, wouldn't it? To some extent in their lives. I mean, you see other cultures you- - Oh, absolutely. You know, my parents were very multicultural and very open to all different kinds of people and everything. And I think that, you know, if anything, their concerns for me, well they were great assimilationist being immigrants, you know, they never taught us how to speak Tagalog because they didn't want us to have an accent. You know, that back in the 60's, that's kind of what you did with your kids. - [Sheila] Right. - And I think any kind of discouragement of me being gay is I think they just didn't want me to have a hard life. Do you know what I mean? I think it was about, it was about protecting me. - More about protecting. They cared about you, didn't want you to, you know, be in trouble, but sort of inexorable. Well, you must have had an artistic bent and I don't mean this having to do with being gay. - Yeah. - But because you're so talented, this must have manifested itself pretty early. - Well, I think my talent comes out of this incredible need to please. Do you know what I mean? It's total compensation happening since I was four years old, you know, the minute your behavior, your kind of inherent behavior starts to be corrected by the adults in your life and by the family around you, then you try to do everything else. You can in order to be okay. You know, I think what being gay did for me was make me very hypervigilant at a very young age. I think every gay person goes through this. You're always kind of testing the temperature of the room. - [Sheila] Right. - You know? In terms of who's gonna be cool and who isn't and how am I gonna maneuver this social situation? And certainly that's served me as an actor and that's a huge part of- - Well, and also as a kid, I mean, you know, I was a child actor and then a teenage actor and I very much understand it's not so much that you are working really hard to, only to please your parents, but the notion that you just want everybody to really like you. - [Alec] Right. - And one of the nice venues for that is you're funny or yes, you're entertaining and you're talented. So when did you start, you know, acting or performing or- - Well, I think that, you know, everybody in my family is really funny. My father, you know, he's hysterical and they all have a really great sense of humor. I think Filipinos, culturally have a really kind of, you know, a great sense of the ridiculous, but I found that the minute I got to junior high school, you know, you're always kind of figuring out where you fit in and I wasn't gonna be the jock, I wasn't gonna be the prettiest, I wasn't gonna be the, you know, and what my way of fitting in was always making people laugh so that, you know, the minute that I could make people laugh, then all of a sudden I was invited to parties and, you know, and then you find your tribe that way. - [Sheila] Right. - So, you know, that was always, that was another leveler. That was another way of fitting in. - But was your tribe in school theater arts? - Sure, sure, immediately. you know, part of my standup act, I used to say, you know, luckily for me, I grew up in San Francisco, so we had gay lesbian support group right in our high school, only back then we called it drama club, you know, so. - Exactly. - [Alec] Yeah. - So did you go to college in San Francisco too? - No, I wanted to get away. (Sheila laughs) I mean, not too many people know this, but San Francisco is still a really small town. I mean, I can go back to San Francisco now and just walk down the street and run into people I went to high school with. So it's very small town and I kind of really wanted to get away, and so I went to NYU. I got a, I went to the undergrad drama department at NYU and I was accepted on academic probation 'cause my grades were so rotten. It's really bad. - Well, they must have seen something in you. That's not a charity school. - No, it wasn't. It was very expensive, yeah. - But I mean beyond, I mean academically too. - Yeah. - You know, they, I think the theater department is always so interesting, like the music department. I mean a lot of it's about talent, but on the other hand they have to see potential. I mean you have to get through the other classes. - Yeah. - So it must have been exciting to think about going to New York. - It was exciting and it was really terrifying too because all of a sudden I had to take my dream seriously. I had to take my ambition seriously because my parents, you know, we weren't rich, were spending a lot of money to send me there and I was living on my own in New York city, so. And I kind of wanted to prove to my parents that I could make it on my own, but it was a great, great time. I mean, 18 years old, gay and living in New York city. I mean, that's, that's a recipe for fun. - It is, of course. So, were you out to your folks by then? - I was out to my folks. I was out in high school. I was out in high school and, but I didn't come out to my folks until after my freshman year of college, they knew, but we just never formally discussed it. And the way I came out was one of my, my mother's lesbian sister was a facilitator at an EST like seminar. Do you remember EST? - Sure. - Where you talk about your feelings, for 20 hours a time you can't pee. - Don't forget the pillow you have take the pillow. - So she was a facilitator at one of those seminars and she had to fill a quota each month to get a number of people into the seminars, and so we went as a family. - Oh wow. - We went as a family. And everything was out on the table, all the baggage, all the, you know, everything came out to both my parents, discussed everything, it was the very first time, I think I was like 21 years old, it was the very first time I ever acknowledged that, you know, I'd come out at 14, but I'd never acknowledged that I'd ever been ashamed. Do you know what I mean? - Yes. - And it was the very, I remember the, it was the very first time that it ever occurred to me. It didn't occur to me, It never occurred to me how ashamed I was because I grew up in San Francisco, I'd been out in high school, I'd had boyfriends, so I didn't think, but all of a sudden I just, it was amazing to me how much baggage I had. - So you mean, it sounds to me like there's a certain level at which you think it's so good. It's so open here. - [Alec] Sure. - That I don't know what I have to be ashamed of and you find, but you know, that's the thing about inside the house, outside in the neighborhood that you're talking about. I mean, there's shame with the people that you love the most, who love you the most. So did you talk about that at this- - Oh, lots, lots. And it was the first time we ever talked about it and I think that that was an amazing, amazing turning point for me, you know, because it was when I finally started to kind of take stock of the person I was and kind of judging myself by my character. And it was a very interesting time too, 'cause I was living in New York city, it was the 80's, people were dying every week. I'd come to New York in 1983 in about 1986, 87, all of the mentors who had taken care of me and looked out for me were all dying. - Let's talk about what- So you were working beyond college, not just productions at NYU, but also- - I was doing standup in New York city 'cause I couldn't get cast in any of the main stage productions at school. They were doing a tribute to the group theater, plays like Golden Boy and Awake and Sing, and when I complained to a faculty member that there were no parts for me to play, he graciously offered to cast me many crowd scenes. So I started doing a standup with a gay lesbian comedy troop called People Who Are Funny That Way. Which was started by Lea DeLaria and this man named Bruce Hopkins. And Bruce Hopkins used to open the show by saying welcome to people who are funny that way, if there's anybody in this audience who objects to being entertained by a homosexual, I suggest you never go to the movies, watch television or attend a theater ever again. - Well of course, when you talk about the AIDS epidemic and you know, all of the creative industries, including, and maybe most especially, the theater. So when you talk about mentors, I wanna take that apart a little bit. - [Alec] Sure. - Talk about that time. - They were my teachers, I had an acting teacher who was one of my first acting teachers in New York. He was a Jesuit who taught at NYU and his name was brother Jonathan. He was so open and welcoming and gentle and he wasn't one of those acting teachers who was a bitter actor, you know, cause he'd get some of those who kind of really take it out in the students, and he was really a terrific, extraordinary person. And I remember one summer just literally watching him waste away. There were comics that I worked with, costume designers, teachers, I mean, it was such a huge arts community and the AIDS epidemic really cut a swath right through that. It was amazing to be kind of on such intimate terms with death at like 22, 23 years old. - Right, it was a widespread experience. - [Alec] Right. - And it really changed, I think it changed a lot for people, but I wanna talk in a minute about sort of the impact on you, as you were talking I was thinking about the impact on the theater itself. I mean, I remember someone, maybe it was Kate Clinton that said, "You know, if you would remove all of the gay men from all the creative industries, you'd be left with little more than let's make a deal." - That's true. Not even that. - That's right. - Somebody's gotta decorate that set. (Sheila and Alec laugh) - But I mean, with all of the deaths from AIDS, you know, before our drug cocktails and people were actually living with AIDS and living longer, the loss of creativity and talent in the theater- Was awful in New York - It's excruciating. It was awful, it was awful. And my current partner now is 12 years younger than me, and we were watching angels in America and he was like, "I can't imagine what that must have been like". And I said, "It was exactly like this, it was exactly like this movie." I remember, I mean, people my age have seen what AIDS looks like. I mean, we got so used to seeing a 30 year old man with a cane or you would, somebody would fall out of the social circle for six months and you would just naturally assume 'cause the next time you'd see them they were emaciated. So I felt like it was so much more visible back then. And I think out of that, you know, that's when the personal becomes the political. And I think that's when that my activism was born out of that because I saw people rejected by their families, I saw people revived on the news, the way pundits would speak about the gay lesbian community as if we were completely inhuman. And that's when the decisions are made, you know, that's, when I really had to confront my own shame issues and go, there's really nothing to be ashamed of because I'm in the midst of heroes, I watched such heroism, I saw people take extraordinary care of the people in their community in a completely selfless way. Do you know what I mean? - I do. - And they were all my role models. And again, those people, I saw dying people taking care of dying people, you know, and that changes you forever. That, you know, whenever I hear people talk about the preservation of families I think about our struggle in the 80's because that's all we did. - Right. - That's all we did. - Right our chosen family. - Our chosen family, because I saw people rejected by their families on their deathbeds. I mean, it was, oh, it was excruciating. - So, what did that have on you? I mean, you're working in the theater, but in addition, when you say the political becomes personal and vice versa, what was happening then to you in terms of not just your work, but sort of beyond your work in New York. What was sort of, what was there, were there things in which you engaged or you know, went to or was it more of a personal transformation? - I think, you know, it's interesting. Because it was happening to everybody around me. - Right. - You know, so I was always in the midst of it, I was doing an AIDS benefit every weekend, you know, our standup comedy troop would, was performing benefits all the time. Around this time I was in the Broadway plan butterfly and all the Broadway cares equity fights AIDS organizations were starting. I went to the very first fundraiser and it's now an annual thing. They have the Easter bonnet competition where each hat, each Broadway show creates a gigantic hat. I was at the very first one of that. And yeah, I was, I was always doing something. I was attending the act up meetings. So I mean, looking back in it now, I mean, I was doing something political all the time. - Well, it match, you know, after a while you just find that it's happening to us, it's happening to our families, It's happening to our friends. - [Alec] Right. - We've gotta do something. - You have to do something. - And do something is really kind of collective action. But you did sort of skid into saying I was an in butterfly at the time, can you move back? - And I was in a Broadway play, yeah. - I mean, how did, I mean, that was a big step. - That was a huge step from a comedy troop. - Yeah, from, yeah. I went from doing standup comedy and then I graduated from NYU in 87 and was cast in Butterflies, the understudy, and I danced in the show. I was one of the dancers in the show. And back then, you know, I was like, what? 21, 22 years old. And I thought, that's what you did. I thought that you graduated from college and then you got a Broadway play. You know, I really had no sense of the, you know, the event being precious or rare. And I had worked in the TKTS booth in times square and I would run to all the Broadway theaters and get tickets, you know, and deliver them to the booth. And I finally arrived at the O'Neil theater on Broadway in 49th street, one day on the box office, people recognized me and they were like, "What are you doing here?" And I'm like, "I'm in the show." You know? So I understudied that role, the lead in that play for a year, and then I played the role for a year on Broadway with the late Tony Randall, he was just great. - Say more about that. - Yeah. - I just think it's, I mean, I think people know, you know, a lot of times, especially we have a big west coast audience, but not only for the show. And I think people feel like they know a lot about TV and probably a lot about movies. - Sure. - Very little about Broadway and what it feels like to be in a good show. - And it was, it was, I remember getting off the subway coming to work and I'd get off and on matinee days and all of time square would be filled with people going to see a Broadway show. And our half hour call was at 1:30, 'cause the show was at two. And I remember being so excited walking to the theater, thinking "I'm in a show, I'm in a show" which was, you know, pretty heady time for a little gay boy from San Francisco. You know, it was just kinda, and it was a neat community because we'd all eat at the same restaurants after the show, there was Joe Allen's or this restaurant called Sam's where all the chorus people ate. There was a restaurant called roses where all the crew people ate on Thursday nights, all the understudies, the hair people, the costume people would all just get there and get drunk and talk about who was a nightmare to work with, you know, just, you know, all the backstage gossip. And it was just a great community to be a part of. And there were all these extracurricular activities, there was softball league and bowling league and you know, again, all the benefits that we all performed at. - [Sheila] Right. - And it was great. - So was it pretty easy at this time for a person who is out to work on Broadway and off Broadway? - Do you know? I was, you know, looking back in it, I was really, really lucky 'cause that was a very, very specific part that I was right for, you know, and you know that I worked that much at that age, at that time is kind of a miracle, you know, I don't think it's easy for any actor. I think you have to kind of create your own industry, you know? And I think that's what I've always done because when somebody says, no, I'm always looking for the other door. - [Sheila] Sure, of course. - You know, 'cause you have to, and I think this, you know, what's hard about this industry is there's such a large volume of people just waiting around, waiting to be given permission to perform. I never wanted to write and I never wanted to do standup ever, but because nobody was presenting me with any opportunities to perform, I had to create my own, so. - So what happened after M. Butterfly. - After M. butterfly? I toured with the show for a year. I came to Los Angeles and within six months my mother died, a business manager ripped me off for all my money and my boyfriend dumped me. - That doesn't sound like a very good thing for LA. - We did six months, I know, of arriving in Los Angeles. And I always said that, I think I would've been able to handle it if these were isolated incidents that happened over a number of years to somebody else. You know? - Right. - So I basically had to start all over again because while everybody saw the show in Los Angeles and could appreciate it, nobody knew what to do with me and I didn't get it at the time. I still, it was, I was young enough to kind of have a sense of entitlement about acting that it was just something that I was entitled to because nobody ever told me I couldn't do it. And I especially had that with Los Angeles. Like people should know that I'm talented, people should know. And I kind of realized over the next couple years that this town is always about demonstrating what it is exactly that you do. And I didn't work for almost three years. - And you kind of lost your support system. - I lost my support system. My mother passed away and she was all I grew such, I drew such strength from that relationship with her, such emotional support from that relationship. And with her gone, it left a huge hole in my life, you know, and you know, but it was, you know, looking back and it's a formative time and it was, I think it was really good for me. - Did you ever get any of the money back? - No. No, no. But see the thing is, it was good because it taught me to be good with money. It taught me to be self-reliant, nobody teaches actors to be good with money. - No, not at all. I mean, figure you're gonna be there or you mean right in the unemployment line. - Right, and I had a lot of money really, really young, and I thought that this was the way it was always gonna be. And I spent it that way. Do you know what I mean? I kind of like- - Yes, my house in Malibu I had than I didn't have. I understand entirely. - Really, so did it too, yeah. - [Sheila] Yeah, well. - Because it's, you know, especially when you're young, I think, there's a sense of you, think of the things that you did in your twenties. - Well, and also you don't know about doing anything else. It seems like a lovely thing, everything's coming to you. You don't have a sense of mortality, which means you don't have a sense of anything ever going wrong. - You don't have a sense of mortality. You don't have a sense of things coming to an end. - Even with all of this death that you've seen. - [Alec] Absolutely. - I mean, it's interesting, isn't it? - [Alec] Yeah. - And it's more than just optimism. It really has to do, I mean, it takes a certain amount of denial, I think. - [Alec] Sure. - You know? - [Alec] Sure. - To think, well, I'm sure I can always whatever the step is. - Right, and when you're working also as an actor, it's such an insulated world and certainly, you know, this from having worked in television, you're kind of basically treated like an infant. You know, somebody feeds you, somebody dresses you, somebody walks you to the set. - Combs your hair. - Yeah, comb, you know, I've been combining my own hair since I was five I think I can take care of it, but you know, it's such an insular world. And so it's easy to kind of foster a sense of "This is the way it is, this is the way it will always be, which is why you have so many child stars who end up holding up dry cleaning stores afterwards because they can't handle being in the real world. - Right, exactly, well, they don't know what to do when things go wrong. Some of it has to do though with kind of what your parents give you early on. - [Alec] Sure. - About self sufficiency or I don't know confidence, 'cause it sounds like even though your dad didn't approve of knowing that you were gay and your mom came to be okay with you, it seems like generally though, they were kind of approving of you. - They were very loving. I mean, I never doubted that they loved me. So that's the complicated thing, you know, that's why I'm neurotic the way I am because on one hand there's a great deal of love and on the other hand, there's disapproval. So where, you know, what kind of psyche does that create? But after a while you have to stop, you have to say, "I'll take it from here." and I think that's the journey for every gay and lesbian adult. You have to kind of dismantle the belief system you were brought up with and pick and choose the things that empower you. You know? - Well, if it also, as an artist, you almost kind of use some of that conflict. I mean, people who, I don't wanna say anything bad about accountants, but you know, something that I would consider a really straightforward. I'm not sure they're doing all this self exploration, but actors even, you know, even in situation comedy or oh absolutely episodic comedy or whatever, they're calling it now, you do explore. - Well, you have to have that well to draw from right. You know, I had an acting teacher who said, "You know, crying is not your problem." (Sheila and Alec laugh) - I get that. - He goes, "That's not a challenge for you. You can cry the, I mean, it's pretty plain, you know, you can get upset very easily." - So here you are, you don't have a dime, your boyfriend dumped you, you know, lost your mother who loved you, three years you're not working. How do you come back up out of that? - Come back out of it by entering the world again. I threw my depression, I worked seven days a week, I worked at retail at Williams Sonoma at the Woodland Hills mall. And I worked at the California pizza kitchen in Encino. That was very humbling. - I think you waited on my table. - I probably did. And I was recognized all the time. - [Sheila] Oh yes. - All the time. "Weren't you in that Broadway play?" "Yes, I was, and we have a special this afternoon", you know, and what that did was it gave me a place to kind of, you know, you reentered, I reentered the world again and it made me want to work again because to wanna act, I always, I needed a place to escape from, that's on my waiting job. I waited tables for a good year and then I got an off Broadway play at the Joseph Pat public theater, which I, the place I'd always wanted to work in. Ironically I wasn't cast there until I left New York city. - [Sheila] Interesting. - I put three scenes, they asked me to put three scenes on tape, I did, and I was casting this play and that was in 95, 1995. And from that point on doing that play off Broadway and getting good notices and kind of getting to flex my muscles because I was beginning to think that was beginner's luck, that maybe I'd just gotten in butterfly, 'cause it was a fluke and that brought back so much confidence and I think the healing began. And you know, knock wood. I've worked pretty consistently since then I came back to LA and then I wrote an entire solo show about my nervous breakdown called I remember Mapa, and that played at the mark taper forums, taper two theater, and that's when I started doing sitcoms. I started getting a lot of sitcom work and I kind of created that industry for myself. You know, I started doing, you know, just basically, you know, walk-ons on sitcoms, you know, couple lines here and there. I always thought that I, you know, I always thought that if I could get a 32nd laugh outta 10 seconds of screen time, my work had been done. You know, and then it built from there. I think the biggest hurdle in Los Angeles is getting people to trust you. Does that makes sense? - I think that right. - Yeah. And after a couple years they trusted me and I did like 40 guest starring spots and then I started doing pilots and then not all of those were picked up. And then I did a pilot called Some of my best friends, which is written by Mark Cherry, who wrote Desperate Housewives. - [Sheila] Right. - And that ran five times in four different time slots and we were canceled (laughs). And then that led to this job, which I'm currently doing now Half and Half on UPN, so. - What's it like to be on the show? - It's, you know, I'm not jaded about anything. I love going to work. I never forget that I'm fortunate to be working, you know, I'm just thrilled, it's great. - You know, it's interesting to me since I've been in politics and you know, and out number of people have said to me, "Gee, I imagine it's a lot easier now for gay people to work because they know that everybody was in the closet, you know, in the 50's and 60's And yet my impression is that it's not necessarily just a complete slam dunk for gay people. Will you talk about that a little bit? - Well, I mean, I think that I can be out 'cause I'm a character actor. I'm a character actor. No, my commodity isn't based on being the leading man, I'm not in that category. Nobody's gonna hire me to be Tori Spelling's boyfriend in made for TV movie for a lifetime. Those just, aren't the kind of parts that I'm up for. And I think that if I was, it would be an entirely different equation because so much of this industry is based on perception. I wasn't cast as a series, regular role in a series regular role until I was perceived by the industry as being a series regular person. And that didn't happen until I was cast in a series. But I'd been the same actor all along. I'd had the same talents, but it's about perception. So I think that for leading men, in order to be perceived as heterosexual and sexually viable, it's a completely different story. And there are lots of closeted actors, just as many as in the 50's and 60's. - Oh, yeah. - You know? - Well, that's what I, in a way, that's what I mean. As you said, there are, there's a whole level of parts where you wouldn't, you think you wouldn't be considered because you are a gay actor. - There's lots of homophobic people in in the industry. There's lots. And again, that comes back to testing the temperature in the room. I can walk into a room and smell a hater at 50 feet. Do you know what I mean? You just know that as a gay person, I don't feel safe. There's something subjective going on. There's some kind of disapproval, there's some kind of fear happening and you know, I've had auditions where I drove away going, something's wrong, that didn't go well, I did my best job and something's wrong. And then I would get that call that, you know, they're going with somebody else or- - Yes, you're just not quite. - Yeah. - The right type. - Yeah, right, yeah. A little too gay, you know, it's a little too gay, little too, you know, but they didn't used to say that they used to say light. We thought his reading was a little light. Like I was gonna float away or something, you know? - Well, they used to say that of course. - Right, right. That was the politically correct term. But I would rather hear that, "Oh, we thought it was a big fag and he can't do this part" I was like "That I can take", you know. - The other thing I was thinking when you were talking is that people thought, people who are thought to be appropriate for series also represent a character that might be familiar to more people. And I was thinking about the API community, about the Asian Pacific Islander community and how difficult it's been for them to come to grips with their gay community. And yet they have. And there's been some very strong work among API lesbian and gay people. - [Alec] Absolutely. - To make certain that that happens, do you think that, this is maybe a little drawn out, but do you think that it impacts the acceptability of your character and your being in a series which has to do with a familiar "Yes. I kind of know this person". - It's about visibility. You know, I never grew up seeing somebody who looked like me or talk like me on television. And there were lots of people who looked like me and talked like me. I remember, you know, it's funny when I go back to San Francisco now and I see so many gay Asian people who were out and when I was in high school in the 80's, I thought I was the only one. Because there wasn't that high level of visibility. And now in the past 20 years, it's really, really changed. And I think for me to be, even on it all is, is a big deal, you know? It makes it different. It makes it well, there's somebody else like me, who's happy, who's doing well. Do you know what I mean? It's completely different. - Well you've become a role model. I mean, you don't set up to be a role model. But I thought, I was thinking was beyond that, there's a certain familiarity in the world. They're probably, I don't know, maybe in Kansas, not, I don't know, but it seems as though they won't cast you for a regular part in a series until you represent something that might be not just acceptable, but kind of familiar. - I never thought of it that way. - Well, I was thinking about it when you were saying you don't, they don't perceive you as a series regular person and yet, then you get a series and you're regular and you are. But I think there's also a decision made at the artistic level that this person is not gonna be so alien to people. - Right, but I think 20 years ago, somebody like me, would've been really alien. Yeah, I think I represent, you know, it's little baby steps. I mean, you know, there's not a lot of Asians on television. And there's not a lot of Gaysians on television. So I kind of represent a little bit of progress, you know, and it's little by little and the support of the Asian community is something I certainly feel I'm really politically active in that spectrum of the community. I've done a lot of work with the Asian Pacific AIDS intervention team here in Los Angeles. And that community is really intense because there's a collective experience there, not only of being gay, but our culture, our Asian culture. 'Cause there's gay baggage and there's gay Asian baggage and that's a big thing to carry around. - Well, but it's very important I think. But you know, not every actor is involved in stuff. I mean most aren't, I think. Although you're asked a lot to be involved in things because people want to have the familiarity with you, use your name, etcetera, but you are not just, I'm gonna show up and let you use my name. I mean, you've been deeply involved. Do you see that as a difference between you and other actors? - Do you know what? I don't know. It's not something I really think about 'cause I've been doing it for so long. You know, I've been doing it for so long that it's just a part of my life that I never thought of it in terms of, you know, I'm doing community service. It started out that I'm in this benefit because my next door neighbor is sick. I'm bringing food to this person's house because they're sick and they need food. You know, it was again, the personal became the political and it was never out of any other motivation than just kind of helping the people within a community who helped me, who were always there for me, you know? And you know, I think that if it weren't for the gay people, gay and lesbian people in my life, in New York city, I would've been dead. I would, I would've died. I would've, they were always there for me. They always took care of me and they became my family and it was nice that, you know, my father, you were at that dinner, the gay lesbian center dinner, my father attended that night and yes. And what, you know, what I never realized as a gay person was as much as we have our coming out process, our parents have to have a process as well, you know? And by the time you have enough gumption to come out, you're so militant, you know, and you have to accept yourself right now, you know. You accept me as I am right now, you know, put this rainbow bumper sticker on your car. And what I didn't realize that my father had his own process and that took years, years. And, and now we're finally at a point where we can have the discussions and speak to each other as adults. I mean, I'm still covered with buttons and he pushes all of them, but you know, the fact that he was able to attend that dinner that night and watch me accept an award from Betty DeGeneres was worlds away from the relationship we started out having. So that was really important to me. - That was a wonderful dinner. - That was amazing. - And I thought your remarks were wonderful. Can you say a little bit about what you were honored for? Just so the audience will understand and also how it felt to be, you know, when they ask you, if you would be willing to be honored. - Right, well, when they, you know, said that I was getting a award up, my first response was like, "Really? What? Why?" - [Sheila] What'd I do. - What did I do? And my friend Darrell, who works at the center said that "You've always been out, you've always been a part of the community, you've always been a visible vocal part of the community and you've always been of great service to us." And I was like, "Oh, okay, well then gimme the award." So I got the ranch (indistinct) distinguished achievement award, and it was exciting. And I, you know, I never talked to my father about the stuff that I do, you know, all the benefits that I do. And so that was his first experience of it. And he said to me, later on that night, "I had no idea, I had no idea you knew this many people." So it was a, for those two worlds to come together, it was an incredibly healing thing. - Well, I think in an interesting way, our coming out is so difficult for our parents, but it also, it gives them an opportunity to be, if they'll allow it, drawn into our world. Because one of the things that I see, I mean, I know kids and their parents, I, you know, I am one, my colleagues, my friends became parents and now many of them are becoming grandparents. And one of the interesting things to me is how little each generation knows about what the other generation is doing. And I don't mean secret things or even their personal or sexual life, I mean, just what you do at work. You know, people are never sure what is my mother or my father do at work. And then it becomes that my mom and dad have no idea what I do at work or you know, what my life is like. And sometimes I think it's given us the opportunity because we have to deal with. Now, my personal life has become, as you said, their personal life. And yet until they go to something like that, you know, they don't even know. - [Alec] They don't know. - All the great things you've done, you appraised on the stage and I think it's a wonderful thing. Was your dad comfortable or uncomfortable? - My dad was great. My dad was great. He, you know, he got all dressed up in his suit and you know, it was such a elegant ballroom and that was a really great night. I mean, Jennifer Holiday sang and there was an amazing floor show. And so he loved it, he had a really, really great time. And I remember Darrell was saying that if you're gonna take your parents to their first gay lesbian event, this is a good one. You know, you don't wanna take them to the Folsom Street Fair first time around and walk them past the spanking booth. This one was like a very elegant, you know, kind of turned up affair. And he really had a great time and he gets really starstruck. He met Pam Greer. That was really exciting for him. And so it was fun to see him get such a big kick out of everything. - So you found a community in LA as well? - Yes, yes I did. And that was really hard. 'Cause it wasn't like New York, you know, it was, here there's a community to be found. You just have to drive there. (Sheila and Alec laugh) You have to drive, you gotta drive. You gotta get in the car and that never occurred to me. I sat in my apartment for three years going, where is everybody? Why is nobody calling me? But that's the secret about LA. It teaches you to be resourceful in every part of your life. You kind of have to be, this is the most proactive city I can think of because so much of New York city, you walk out the door and it's all set up for you, that environment's right there and here you gotta make things happen always. - Well, you have made things happen. I mean, one of the things that you said about coming out of that three years and getting back engaged in life, again, in terms of reaching out, in terms of structuring, in terms of making yourself the kind of actor who is a series actor, what do you see, or what would you like to see coming next? - I hope, I hope I always work. I'd like to always keep working, doing interesting character roles. I know that I'll continue to write. I write for the advocate. Now I have a column that comes out every other month called Minority Retort and I'd just like to continue to work. I would love to do animation. To do animated voices and stuff because you don't have to look a certain way. I could get really fat. (Sheila and Alec laugh) - No, you couldn't because if you'd have to be on screen for something or other. - Right, right. - So about your writing, that's interesting writing for the advocate, how did that come about? - A friend of mine was offered the job and he said, "No", he was a friend of mine, a playwright Cha U whose play I had done at the Joseph PA public theater, was offered his own column in the advocate. And he said, I'm too busy. And so he recommended me and they asked for a writing sample. I gave it. And I've been writing for them for about two years now. - So what kind of stuff do you write? I mean, I know, but I don't think it everybody else- - I write, you know, kind of personal things, what's happening in my life right now. I comment on the current political climate. I had a whole article about a welcome letter to governor McGreevey when he came outta the closet. (Sheila and Alec laugh) Welcome to the community. My partner and I recently registered as domestic partners. And so I had a whole column about that, so kind of, - Kind of personal. - What does that feel? - You know, it feels like marriage and it doesn't. I think feels like marriage because all my friends are really kind of gathered around this relationship and really embraced it and it doesn't feel like it, 'cause I didn't walk down the aisle. I didn't have that ritual and it's never been a big dream for me, you know, to have the big wedding, but to have somebody say, yeah, "I wanna stick around with you for a while." That's terrific. - Well, and of course in California, since we passed the last update to the domestic partner registry law, you virtually have the same, not only rights but responsibilities. - [Alec] Right, something happens to me he gets the house. - Yes, I mean all that kind of stuff. And also my sister who's a judge in Sacramento said that there was, you know, a little judge humor going around the people on the bench and the question was where are judges buried? And the answer was under the new domestic partner, (Alec laughs) because of course, if we want to dissolve our relationships, now it's like, you have to go to courts. Some kind of legal stuff. - [Alec] Yeah, that's gonna be sticking. - So one of those be careful what you wish for and I just get it. - I know. I know 'cause there's gonna be all these gay divorce proceedings now. - But let's not talk about it. Let's talk about the relationship. So that was something you hadn't mentioned before. There's a partner. - I have a partner we've been together for three years. He's 12 years younger than me. I had to explain to him who Fay Dunaway was. (Sheila laughs) That was very strange. He's he's an actor, he's a dancer. And I said, I wasn't gonna date another actor again, ever, because- - [Sheila] So much for those never comes. - I know 'cause if there's gonna be a needy neurotic person in the relationship, it's gonna be me. But he's, you know, I had to find somebody who was on my emotional level and I found that person who was 12 years younger than me. So that said something about me. - And if you've been registering for domestic partner it kind of, feels kind of serious, doesn't it? - It feels really serious. Yeah, I took it very seriously. We, he proposed me at the Eat Well Diner in west Hollywood. (Sheila laughs) Can I cry? It's embarrassing. And then we did the whole signing of the document and getting it notarized downtown and the entire office staff was African-American. So they recognized me from the UPN show and they all gathered around to say congratulations. And it was a neat day, I felt very giddy afterwards. And I was the one that was freaked out. He was completely calm afterwards. He was like, "Okay, now it's done. Now I feel good." And I was like, "I'm married. Somebody got me." - [Sheila] It's sweet though. - It's sweet. It's sweet and it feels right. And it feels like it's time, you know? - Tell us a little bit about the show. I think it's a real interesting setup. - It takes place in San Francisco. It's about two half sisters who share a Victorian home in San Francisco. One of them works in a record company and I play the receptionist at that record company. So it's, you know, it's like the bullpen comedy and I'm the eccentric secretary. So, and it's kind of the perfect part for me because it's never interested me to carry a show. I think the character rolls on a sitcom are really the most interesting parts. And you certainly- - I feel the same way, absolutely, well- - How many years did your show run? How many- - Well, it was, in first run it was only four. The Dobie Gillis show. I actually did a series before that when I was a little girl. That was the first film television series ever. And it was one of those family, black, you know, black and white shows from the 50's when there were still test patterns on and you know, your partner doesn't remember taking away- - I'll explain it to them. Yeah, yeah, test pattern. - I mean, even Dobie Gillis was in black and white and I got a fan letter from a nine year old boy who wrote, you know how sometimes they can be so serious, "What an interesting artistic choice it was, you know, to film in black and white". (Sheila and Alec laugh) I thought, okay, he doesn't remember. - Your show has a (indistinct) quality. - That's exactly there didn't used to be color television. Okay. - What were your parents like during that time? Were they kind of- - You know, they were never show business parents. - Really? - No, they really didn't have any idea about wanting me to do this, but they were very supportive. It happened sort of accidentally, you know, a guy came around the neighborhood, signing up kids for tap dancing lessons, went to this thing on Saturdays to do that, and then we did little shows and I'm just funny. I mean, I was funny as a kid and somebody noticed and they said, "Well, you gotta go in an interview for this, at the time, radio series." And I got that. And six months later they had the interview for this Stu Irwin show, which was the first film show, you know, LA was trying to bring the business back from New York, 'cause ll the shows were live and you know, I just started acting. So my mom would go to the set with me and she loved it. But she just, it wasn't so much that she loved show business fame, you know, or any of that stuff, they put all my money away, they didn't know that they were supposed to- - You're lucky. - Oh, extremely. - [Alec] Yeah. - I know because I've done some of the bills to protect child actors from their parents and I never, you know, had to be, but I- - So the Coogan law was already in place back then. - The Coogan law was in place. You had to go to court and have your contract approved and they were putting way more than the judge would told them to, so. - That's great. - But in those days it didn't pay that much. I mean it was $200 a week for three shows. We were doing three shows a week. But with Dobie Gillis, it was the same thing you were talking about in terms of being a character actor or not carrying the show because Dwayne Hickman, who played Dobie, felt he was the least funny person on the show because he was here, you know, set and everyone kind of was funny around him. - It's exactly the same setup. There's two lead characters and they're kind of very straightforward characters and they were surrounded by eccentrics, they're surrounded by big personalities. I'm one of the big personalities and it's kind of great. Each week I get my script I usually have two or three scenes in each act, and sometimes if I have a lighter load, the writers will come up to me and they'll say, "I'm sorry, you don't have a lot to do this week", and I'm like, "I'm fine." This is fine because, you know, I come to work, I bring a stack of novels and some crossword puzzles. And when it's my time to work, I'm down on the stage, I do my scene, I hit my mark and the rest of the time I'm, you know, up in my dressing room. - But you know what you said about it being sort of, an isolated experience. I mean, it's interesting to me. Three things, you're very intimate with the cast. - Sure. - I mean, you're such good friends and you do all these things together or, I mean on the set and you know each other, you know, pretty well. You go out in public and people recognize you. So you're kind of out in the world, but in terms of sort of meaningful engagement, beyond the art, seems to me that your choice is to be involved in the community. - [Alec] Right. - Must bring another sort of dimension to your life. The activism. - Yes, it does. Because otherwise I wouldn't leave the house. I don't go out, I really don't go out a lot. I'm such a homebody, I'd rather stay home, I read a lot, I mean, they should shovel books into my window. I just, I love to read and I love to stay home and you know, so what the activism does, it gets me involved in the community. I don't think I would get out that much more if I wasn't involved politically. - So what do you think- - But I also enjoy it. I also enjoy the activism. I enjoy, I have a lot of great friendships from those activities and great relationships that I've established from doing all those benefits and from doing all the fundraising that I do, that's great. - There's still a lot of activism around AIDS, even though for a while there we thought maybe we were- - We have a cocktail, there's a cure. - Yes, right, exactly. But it seems like the statistics are showing that especially young people in the community, aren't paying much attention to the danger. - [Alec] Yeah and it's bad. - Do you find that in the work that you're doing with the groups that you're working- - Well again, you know, I know what it's, you know, now that I'm older, I can look at a 25 year old, a 22 year old and know that mindset, nothing bad can happen to me, I'm in-mortal, you know, talking about that thing. There's no sense of mortality. And certainly now that's more prevalent because AIDS isn't as visible, the scourge isn't as visible. And so you're finding that that age group has the highest rate of new infections and everything. And I think that we, it's time to kind of, I remember when I was coming out, there was so much education and so much information constantly. I mean, it was really kind of treating it as a crisis, which it is. And now there just doesn't seem to be the same emphasis on that. - Well, it's sort of in terms of the high infection rate, although there's still an infection rate in the gay community, we've also seen that this is affecting, you know, communities of color, for women of color. So in some ways I don't think our community is quite sure how to prioritize. We hear a lot about, for instance, marriage, as you know, the biggest issue for the community, and yet I think health issues are still very important. - [Alec] Absolutely. - So I know you want to keep working and that was what you said, you like to keep working, but do you have sort of a dream for the next 10, 20 years? - Well. - [Sheila] A wish? - A wish for the next 20, you know, it'- - For all, you know, know I can grant it. - I know, well, let me think. I want a pony, you know, so much, I used to live so much within the next five years. I wanna know what's, I wanna know what I'm doing within the next five years. I always have the five year plan and I recently bought a house and I'm on the series and, it's taken me a long time to kind of want what I have, you know, I want what I have and that's a great feeling, you know, because I used to always concentrate on all the things that I didn't have and all the things that weren't happening. And you could do that all day long. And I'm at a point now where I'm so grateful for all the great things in my life right now that if it continues to be exactly like this, I'd be perfectly fine. - You know, I don't think I wanna ask you one more question 'cause that's such a fabulous wrap up and you're the ending anyway. And I have to tell you, I really loved this. It's so wonderful to talk to you. - Oh, thank you. - And I very much admire your work. And I, you know, I hope you just keep on being happy and keep on being creative and, you know, keep on working as we say, you gotta keep working. - [Alec] Right. - And the same to you. I hope that you love your work. I hope that you make your life work for you. I hope that you've learned a lot from Alec about being funny and serious, you know, about being very successful and bringing yourself back up from the bootstraps. I think it's a great story and- - [Alec] A real tearjerker. - Oh no, I didn't cry at all. We've all got a great story. This community is quite very agated and wonderful, and I hope the world gets used to it. (upbeat bright music)