AV Geeks 16mm Lunch 9-10-2025

Hello everybody. This is Skip Alzheimer. Welcome to the AV Geeks Lunchtime streaming show where I have a lot of external light that is coming in. I'm in the dining room. See if that helps a little bit. Eh, not so much. whatever. Um, yeah, we watch old 16 millimeter films and, uh, think better about ourselves. Uh, this first film, uh, we've been doing some work with the Pllinger archive and trying to get some of their stuff online on YouTube and also give some visibility to it. They've been working hard on it, a bunch more films um, past that first big batch of 5,000 films that they did decades ago. Um there's new stuff that they're working on and so we want to share some of that. This one we're going to start off with is old recipes, new ideas. Enjoy. [Music] Finding an old cookbook can be like finding long lost buried treasure. Those well-worn pages can bring back nostalgic memories of the wonderful dishes grandma used to prepare. But uh sometimes it raises that old challenge about women these days not being able to cook like grandma used to. Now uh maybe one of these old sauce recipes might be something to try. H add 3/4 of a gill of white wine and strain in 1 and 1/2 gills of the gravy. But hold on a minute. What's a Jill? No Jill measurers in the house? Well, might as well read on anyway. Season with a dash of cayenne pepper and a pinch of salt. Adding a raw egg yolk and the juice of a half a sound lemon. Well, now that's just dandy. A sound lemon. Does that mean a big juicy one or just an average one? Or does it have something to do with the difference in lemon strengths? Looks like grandma had to do a lot of guessing with these recipes. And what about the bother and mess? And yes, even the waste involved using that oldfashioned juice squeezer. Anyway, that old squeezer will probably be a valuable antique before too long. Well, what else does the recipe have to say? Set the sauce pan on the corner of the range at Now wait a minute. That did it, the corner of the range. That must be referring to an old coal or wood range. Now, how does a modern woman do all this with her up to-date methods? Perhaps all it takes is a little translation. Now, what about this Jill business? Ah, liquid measure equal to 1/4 of a pint. Well, then a gill must be the same as a half a measuring cup. Now, what about that juice of a half a sound lemon? Well, any modern woman who knows her way around a kitchen has the answer to that. Reconstituted lemon juice always has the same uniform strength. And of course, there's no messy, wasteful squeezing to be done. Since 1 ounce of this bottled lemon juice is equal to that of one average size lemon, with her measuring spoons, she can follow that recipe with precision. Even the timing of her cooking is a matter of simple precision these days. You know, when it comes right down to it, that's the main difference between grandma's cooking years ago and cooking as it's done today. Precision, uniformity, and convenience. Grandma may have been a pretty good guesser with her pinches of this and dashes of that and her rituals on the old coal range, but uh we kind of wonder if grandma's dishes ever turned out exactly the same way twice. With today's homemaker, cooking is more than an art. It's a science. Now, she knows how she likes her lemonade, and even she knows how to make it that way every time. We suspect she'll grow up to like old cookbooks, too. But we'll bet she does things with old recipes that grandma never dreamed possible. or she won't cook at all. She'll basically just buy convenience foods um that are already pre-made and canned or frozen um because she has a busy life and uh is getting her uh master's degree and is um working two jobs. You know, that's tends to be what happened. So, looking at the old cookbook, it was like, nope. Um, it's funny how many like old grandma recipes, uh, you know, people are like coveting them and then they realize like, oh no, that was just on the back of the Toll House cookie package toll house um, chocolate um, morsel package. Um, all right, let's count. This is the second edition. the the counting that was in the first edition was outdated and they've updated how counting took place and so the second edition is more up to date. I don't know if there's a third uh out in the world but um there might be and if if there is one in my collection I will show it to you. Let's count. Enjoy. [Music] Once upon a time, there was a witch's castle in the TV. That's right. You've seen it. In the castle, there lived a little witch who was very unhappy. >> Hello out there. [Music] >> Of course, she can't ever go out and play. So all day she switches from one channel to another. Channel one, 2, 3. Channel 4, 5, 6, channel 7, 8, 9, channel 10, 11, 12. And she watched all the hours of the day. 1 2 3:00 4 5 6:00 7 8 9:00 10 11 12:00 She was an unhappy little girl witch. Now, the whole witch family, even though they were very busy, worried about her. She had a big family. Let's see. A very nice father witch and a mother witch. One and one more makes two. Two parents and sisters. One and one more makes two. Two and one more makes three. Three and one more makes four. Four sisters and brothers. One and one more makes two. Two and one more makes three. Three and one more makes four. Four and one more makes five. Five brothers. All witches. They were the largest number of witches ever together on TV. Let's count them again. One at a time. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 >> and me too. >> 11 and one more makes 12. A family of 12 witches. But one was a very unhappy witch. >> I don't want to be a witch. Oh >> no. >> What do you want to be? >> I want to be a monster. >> Yes, she wanted to be a monster. >> So all the members of the family talked it over. >> We all agreed. >> It would be fun to have a monster in the family. But how could that be done? First, make the magic brew. Second, say the magic words. Third, meet the magic program boss and find out what to do. First, get to the magic brew. Get one big glass bowl. Get two toys. One. And one more is two. Drop them in. Three pictures of water. One, two, three. Four jars of color. Two yellow. One, two. Two blue. One, two. Now stir it five times. 1 2 3 4 5 Six gumballs. Two at a time. Two and two more is four. Four and two more is six gum balls. Beautiful. [Music] Now, the second thing she has to do is to say the magic words. Naming the numbers in order as fast as possible will get her to the program boss. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 10 11 12. >> Nothing's happening. The program boss won't answer. Something certainly is wrong. Let's hear those magic words again, but slower. >> 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 10 11. >> There it is. I see what I did. I left out a number. I left out number nine. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12. That's perfect. You found your mistake. Now, the third magic. Meet the magic program boss and find out what to do. >> I am the boss and this is what I say to you. First, show me you can count by ones. Second, show me you can count by twos. And third, show me you can count by fives. If this is the counting you can do, I will make your wish come true. >> Let's have the ones. One tractor and one more is two tractors freight cars. One, two, and one more is three. One plow, two plows, three plows, and one more is four plows. Subway cars. One car. Two cars. Three cars. Four cars. One more is five cars. Boats. One. Two. 3 4 5 and one more is seven boats. Never, never, never. >> Five and one more is six boats. Bricks. 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 and one more is 10 bricks and one more is 11 bricks. One more is 12 bricks. >> Now that ones are done, twos will be a lot of fun. Two feet and two more is four feet. Two stones. Four stones and two more is six stones. Two steps. Four steps. Six steps. And two more is eight steps. 2 4 6 8 and two more is 10. 10 animals. 2 4 [Music] >> 6 8 10 and two more is 12 kids. 12 screaming kids. [Applause] One is done and so is two. Five is next. It's up to you. >> 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 [Music] 11 uh 12 uh uh uh >> she's lost track of how many she's counted. Luckily, she remembered a good trick. Let's start over again. This time, she'll make a tally mark for each one, then count the marks she's done. One, two, three, four, five. One, two, three, four, five. One, 2, 3, 4, 5. 1 2 3 4 5. Now all together I have 5 10 15 20 wee wee wee. 20 kids on the tilt world. [Music] >> There is no doubt that she can count all these and those and them. >> I want to be a monster. I gave my word for goodness sake of the witch a monster make >> first some monster hair >> first. >> Second a monster voice. >> Second give her a monster >> voice. >> Third some monster teeth. >> Third some teeth. >> Fourth give her monster eyes. Fourth, the eyes. >> And fifth, monster claw. >> The monster claw. Girl, I'm a monster. >> And that is how the little TV girl witch became a monster and counted happily ever after. [Music] Heat. Heat. What the hell was that? Holy cow, man. Um, I mean I get it like I'm sure the first edition and I don't know I so I showed let's count in 2021 I think but I don't know which version I showed and I'm sure I have both versions but you know so there was this kind of like well we have to figure out a way to keep kids interested but then it goes way off the rails. way way off the rails. And that's definitely what I'm seeing here. Um I'm looking to see if there was a third edition because I guarantee you that some teachers were like, "No, this is so over the top that we're just losing kids in the narrative." And I'm not seeing one. So I'm seeing there was one 1948 which I think I showed and then the second edition which was 1972. Um and so during this time is is when educational filmmakers were confronted with the fact that kids were watching an inordinate amount of television. And so what they were seeing visually when they got home was overpowering what they were seeing visually uh in school. And so they were trying to up the ante and so a lot of crazy films happen during this time. So another example of this is uh parents who need them who needs them which is basically about a puppet that makes a boy invisible uh so he can learn about how his parents help in his daily life and uh you know so it's around that same time uh you know coming up with these narratives that get kids more interested in what they're seeing but sometimes the educational value just gets brushed aside because kids are obsessed with uh a monster who has four eyes. Um let's get back to basics a little bit here with John Hooper's Way with Wood. Enjoy. [Music] [Music] Oh yeah. Heat. Heat. [Music] I love that sort of experience of being right in the woods where it's very quiet and nobody around and and uh you feel rather small against all these tree people standing around. And I I think that's the sort of feeling I've had for such a long time that wood is or trees are so much more than just plants growing around the place that you burn or that you chop up. When I come to chop a tree down, I don't particularly like killing the tree, but I am hopefully going to use its wood to a good purpose. I think people have to realize when they're working with wood that it is demanding and it does require understanding and respect in order to get a good job out of it. The lumber industry is machinebased these days. That means that your selection of wood is much poorer than it used to be in the old days. [Music] Heat. Heat. [Music] [Applause] [Music] [Music] The easiest and most economical way of cutting logs is flat soil. By this method, the best boards come from the outside of the lo. The center of the tree is formed when it's young. And this wood has a property which causes it to shrink and swell more than the outer wood. If you look at the end of a board and the annual rings are steep or at right angles to the board, then this board comes from the center of the tree. If you look at a board that has come from the outside of the tree, the annual rings will curve gently. It is these boards that come from the outside of the tree that are best for furniture making. [Music] There are great number of different species of trees in Canada. [Music] You can find good woods for furniture or cabinet making like birch, maple, pine, oak, cedar, butternut, fur, any number of woods. [Music] But you have to look for them. Not all lumberiards will stock them. [Music] Oak is a good wood for some furniture. It's hard, so it needs sharp tools and a well set saw. There's this fallacy that u once you have a dry piece of wood, whether it be kiln dried or air dried, that it then you have a piece of wood that'll stay that way forever. And that's obviously not so at all. Wood is governed by atmosphere and by particularly by moisture. it will give out moisture or take in moisture all its life. Therefore, you have to ensure that the condition of the wood is compatible with the atmosphere in which it is. And that applies as much to an old piece of wood as it does to a new piece of wood. I enjoy cutting a mortise tenon joint by hand to get it really tight and strong. If I used wood that had a lot of moisture in it, the wood would would eventually shrink and the joint would loosen and and really would lose its purpose altogether. [Music] There's such a turnover of wood in a lumbia that it's often not stacked or protected properly. Your wood should be stacked so that there's plenty of air circulation around the wood so that it'll dry evenly and slowly. So there should be spaces in the wood set above each other and at proper intervals. The lumber industry often kil dries wood rapidly and rather poorly. And although this wood is all right for construction, it is not suitable for furniture making. John, make sure you get the the letter the ABC up this end. All right. >> Yeah. If you can't get the dry lumber you want, you can bring back green lumber and dry it yourself. And the best way to do this is to bring the lumber into your heated workshop, stack it, and wrap it completely in plastic. The the heat of the room will cause the wood inside the plastic to lose moisture. If the plastic remains totally sealed, the moisture will condense on the inside of the plastic. This means you have to open a vent in the plastic in order to let some of the moisture out. If the vent has been opened for a while and you see cracks beginning to appear on the ends of the boards, that means that the wood is drying too fast and the vent should be closed down some. drying the wood by this method. Well, depending on just how wet the boards are that that you're trying to dry can could take months or even into, you know, a year or two depending on the type of wood. [Music] When you build a piece of furniture, it's it's a process of joining pieces of wood together to arrive at the finished result. But this bench is is part of a larger process which is one of removing wood. [Music] I've been carving for about 25 years and I've used quite a lot of different woods and each each wood has its own particular value and challenge. This mahogany I'm carving now is uh has been good to carve. It's uh it splinters a little, but it's resistant and it it takes a good finish. There are times when there's a need to pause for quite a long time and I find just to sit and look at what's coming out of the wood and and reflect on what happens next. And at a point when the figures begin to emerge, I find that it becomes a mutual affair. I I I find myself obviously being governed but what by what I see in front of me. And in a funny sort of way, the the figure is almost saying, well, you know, I think I'm going to sort of take on this form. And I'm myself sort of saying, well, okay, then I'll take some more off here. And I'll maybe be careful not to remove any there. And and uh this seems to continue right until the the final moments of of completion. [Music] He was in the Those [Music] [Music] [Music] figures whilst they've been developing, it's been very much of a mutual affair. But as they come to completion, take on their own sort of personality, it's really goes full circle back to the tree in the woods. You can chop it down or you can just look at it and admire it or touch it and uh it's there and it's going to be there and uh you don't really matter much one way or the other. And yet you have the pleasure of being involved with the tree, with the wood, and in its transformation from one form to another. [Music] Heat. Heat. [Music] All right. So much more sedate than a bunch of uh a TV full of child witches. Um yeah. Exc there's there is something very uh I you know I watch YouTube videos at night of people making things uh or cooking food or traveling where there is little to no narration actually and that's what calms me down and I fall asleep too. Um yeah. So we got you at a more sedate level. Thank god. Um now we're going to ratchet it the other way. We're going to go from uh going into first gear, then we're going to go into fifth gear. Um, and hopefully the clutch won't fall out of the car. This is a Calvin film that was uh scanned by the Pllinger folks. And uh this is yet another wacky Calvin production. Enjoy. [Music] Heat. Heat. [Applause] [Music] Heat. Heat. [Music] [Music] Heat. Heat. [Music] What is this? What's going on? Hey, hold it with it. Will you hold it? Stop it right now. Hey, knock that off. Come on. Stop it. What are you trying to do to me? >> Why, we're trying to get your attention. >> All right, you got it. You got it. Say, who was that girl? Well, who she is isn't as important as what she did. >> That's for sure. >> I don't think we're talking about exactly the same thing. I mean, she caught your attention. >> I got to admit that. What's all this about? >> Well, frankly, sir, we used this little device, if you'll pardon the expression, to be sure you'd listen to us. >> You have something to sell? >> Not really. It's something you can sell. You are an automobile dealer, aren't you? >> You bet I'm a dealer, and a good one. But I didn't get that way by carrying on crazy conversations like this. Now, if you'll excuse me. >> You were saying >> You were saying you didn't care for pointless conversations, but I don't think you'll find this pointless. >> Well, okay. What is it you're trying to sell me? >> We're trying to sell you on an idea or a method to help you make more money out of your service department. Look, I run a great service department. >> Undoubtedly, but like a lot of other dealers, you're letting good business drive right into one end and out the other. >> Hey, that's a pretty strong thing to say. How do you know so much about my business anyway? >> Well, let's just say we've been well advised. >> You'll have to give me a better answer than that. Just where am I missing so much business? >> In your paint and body shop. >> In your paint and body shop. >> In your paint and body shop. >> Hey, who are you guys? I think I've seen some of you before. And what's all this about my paint and body shop? >> One question at a time. Perhaps you have seen some of us before or fellows like us. We represent automobile dealers all over the country. But what's really important, we represent dealers who have proved that paint and body shops and dealerships can be very profitable. >> Like how profitable? I'll answer that one. We have 15 full-fledged craftsmen in our service department, not including the sales force. Out of that 15, four men work full-time in the paint and body shop. The others are general repairmen. But the four paint and body men turn out more labor profit than all 11 general servicemen. >> I've got to admit that sounds pretty good, but you're just one dealer. >> Our operation isn't very unusual. A leading automotive publication survey proved that. Out of all the dealers they surveyed, 47% said that paint and body work is more profitable than straight service. 30% said it was about the same. >> Well, they sure didn't ask me. My paint and body shop doesn't do that kind of volume. Tell you the truth, I don't think there are enough customers to go around. Got the figures on that, too. In the first place, there are over 70 million cars on the road now. And millions of new cars are added every year. Over 16 out of every hundred families own two cars. You might say that just about doubles their chances of becoming paint and body shop customers. Look at the odds. Millions of cars on the road, congested highways, new traffic problems. Over 23 million cars will go into shops for paint and body repairs this year. You can figure that at least 15% of all the cars in your trading area are going to be involved in insurance claim accidents every year that goes by. Okay, granted, this is a big potential. bigger than I thought maybe, but most of my refinishing business already comes from insurance claims. Over half, in fact. >> That puts you right in the national average. A lot of dealerships look at insurance work as the backbone of their body shop operation. Like we said before, you're losing business. >> Yeah, there you go again. What do you mean I'm losing business? What's the matter with insurance claims? >> Nothing's the matter with them. insurance works, the first thing everybody thinks of is a mainstay of a refinishing shop. It'll always be important. But there's another source of business so big nobody will ever be able to measure it. Just think how many times a day something like this happens. Or this. or even this. Next time you walk through a parking lot, make a little survey of your own. Look for cars that have this problem or a rocker panel that looks like this or a fender in this condition. And just think of the cars that are in decent mechanical shape that won't be good tradeins because of the way they look. Sounds to me like you guys are talking about what I call ding and dent work. >> We're talking about any kind of refinishing work that's eventually paid for by the customer himself. Something generally not covered by insurance. Ding and dent works included. In fact, half the cars needing paint and body work are in this category. >> Look, we do this kind of thing. We fit these jobs in. Once in a while, we even get overall refinish jobs. We have to take them in to accommodate our customers. You guys must think I run a pretty loose operation. >> No, no. We think you run a good dealership or we wouldn't be here. But something you just said does point up your problem. >> Okay, I'll bite. What did I say? >> You said you fit in ding and dent work and other customer paid jobs. >> That's the way we have to handle it. >> Suppose we could show you a way to make this kind of work a real gold mine for you. >> That's not very likely. We're just not geared up to get that kind of business. Now, if you're talking about some kind of advertising, >> you may want to do some advertising. That's up to you. We're actually talking about refinish work on cars that come into your service department for mechanical repairs. All you have to do is take advantage of it. >> That's not as simple as you make it sound. Maybe we should get more of that business, but you know how the morning rush is. Our service salesmen just don't have time to sell it. It's been our experience that most people will find time to do things they really want to do. That's great philosophy. It's practical advice. Why does service salesman work so hard selling mechanical service? First, because it's their job, and second, they have a good incentive, a salary plus a commission on what they sell. The incentive system will work with paint and body jobs just as well. Let the commission apply to these sales, too. In our shop, we use the pulled commission system. It has some special advantages. We give them a percentage of all the work they gather, whatever it is. On labor, the commission amounts to 3% of the gross, up to $15,000 a month. Over $15,000, we make it 4%. On parts, they get a straight 2%. At the end of the month, all the percentages are added together and divided up among the service salesmen. When their commissions are added in, their paychecks average better than twice their basic salary. Since commissions are pulled, everybody profits from each other's work. So, they keep each other on the ball. They want to make sure everybody's pulling his share of the load. >> All that's very fine for a dealership your size. But what about mine? >> You're right. Every situation is different. Maybe you'd rather use a street commission idea. >> Okay, let's say the commission will make them want to sell paint body jobs. That's still not the whole answer. As I said, we do a whale of a service business. Lots of mornings when we open up, we have customers lined up waiting to get in. When they do get waited on, they're usually pretty impatient. What they're interested in is getting their car rolling again and quick. Now, I have a hunch that trying to talk to them about body work might do more harm than good. >> Sure, there are plenty of mornings like that, but selling ding and death work doesn't necessarily mean selling it on the spot. This is good when you can do it, but there are other ways. The main thing is to give the salesman an incentive to find the work that needs to be done. Then they can make a note of it. They don't need to mention it to the customer right then. Another way is to wait until the morning rush is over. Then have your service salesman, service manager, or body shop foreman take a little tour through the service bays looking for refinish possibilities. Later in the day, maybe about 10:00, call the customers on the phone and sell them on the work that needs to be done. Lots of times the customers will say, "Okay, right off. Might as well do that work, too, while you're at it." Or sometimes we'll set up a later date with it. We also use some promotional pieces. They have spaces for a description of the body work and a cost estimate. We leave these where the owner will find them when he picks his car up, either on the dashboard or on the seat or attached to his repair bill. They have a couple of different mailers, too. We send these out so that the customer will get them a day or two after he's been in our place. You do these things and your sales will jump. >> I'd like to comment on that. Okay, >> go ahead. Shoot. Well, you fellas haven't mentioned the one thing that may be more important to paint and body shop sales than anything else. >> What would that be? >> The way your employees feel about this kind of work. Call it attitude if you want. What I mean is everybody connected with the dealership, including yourself, ought to think of paint and body jobs as just as important as general service. To help this out, you might try what we did. Get all your service people together a couple of nights a week for a while. Let the meetings be a combination of school and bull session. The idea is to lay your cards on the table and let everybody know that you're really going after this paint and body business. Even if you think they already know what's involved, give your shop for a chance to explain. He can use a systems wall chart to illustrate what he's talking about. This will help your service salesman especially because they'll be doing some of the estimating. These schools or whatever you want to call them will help build confidence and confidence is important where attitude is concerned. This business of attitude has a lot of angles to it. For instance, when a customer comes in for mechanical work, your salesman ought to pay just as much attention to the way the car looks as the way it runs. They have to be really interested in what's the best thing for the customer. Sometimes this isn't easy, especially when the salesmen are extra busy. Just the same, they've got to be pleasant. Call the customer's attention to the body work in a nice way and answer his questions courteously. Actually, selling ding and dent repair is easy. You've already got a lot going for you. >> I see your point. The cars are already in there. We might as well get to business. >> Not only that, the main thing is the customer's pride in the way his car looks. Remember, he's got a big investment here, and he knows it. He ought to be reminded that refinish work is money well spent. If he delays getting the spot repaired, he may invite a bigger expense later. Rust can set in and so on. Most customers realize it's a whole lot easier to trade a car that looks good. It doesn't hurt anything to bring this up. Diplomatically, of course. >> You know, uh, I had my doubts for a while, but uh, you guys are beginning to make a lot of sense. >> Glad to hear you say it. That means you decided this is going to be a wise investment. >> Investment? Just what I figured. Here comes the commercial. I knew you guys had something to sell. >> Like we said before, we're only here to sell you on an idea. The money you may decide to spend will be strictly an investment in your own operation. >> Why should I spend anything? I already have a body shop. >> Excuse the pun, but this is right down your alley, isn't it, George? >> Ally is right. Or Ally used to be right, but not anymore. You see, before we wised up to all the possibilities of paint and body work, I'm afraid we thought it was just a kind of a nuisance. The shop, if you could call it that, was about two blocks away from the dealership. On top of that, the main door to the place faced an alley. It looked just plain shabby. Of course, we had a sign up on the street side, but it didn't help much. Customers still had a hard time finding us. In fact, the place was so far away, we had all kinds of trouble supervising the jobs that went in there. But don't get me wrong, our work was usually good in spite of all the problems. >> Say, uh, have you ever seen my body shop? >> Uh, no, I don't think so. Why? Uh, sounds kind of like Never mind. Go on with what you're saying. Where was I? Oh, I guess I don't have to tell you we got rid of the old place. But there wasn't room in our service department to take care of the body shop. So, we picked a spot closer to the dealership and put up a new building. In this place, we have plenty of everything without being extravagant. Lots of light is important, and we have it. Daylight and artificial. We have enough bays to take care of our volume. The driveways are wide and designed to handle the heavy traffic that moves between our main building and the paint shop. It's well equipped anyway you look at it. We put in the best tools we could find. We stocked it with highquality refinishing materials and supplies. And as a bow to the ladies especially, we decorated a little waiting room. It's a good idea to have a clean, comfortable place for the customers to rest and relax. Of course, it's a lot easier now to keep the whole place clean. I guess that's about all. >> Man, that's enough. It's fine. But you're talking about a lot of money. Probably not as much as you think. You may not need a new shop. Maybe it's just a case of utilizing the space you already have more efficiently. Actually, it's up to you to decide how big an operation you need to handle a business you can expect. >> Suppose, just suppose that I do decide to go all out for paint and body work. Where do I get the crystal ball that tells me how much business I can count on? >> No crystal ball. You can make a fair estimate for yourself based on your service department volume and new car sales. If you need some help, do what I did. I talked to my car manufacturer's rep. He has the benefit of the national market dope that the manufacturer uses. He showed me how to base the size of my shop on realistic figures. This included an allowance for future expansion, too. Everything points toward paint and body sales growing faster than any other part of your dealership. So, you want to be sure your investment includes room for expansion. >> Uh-uh. That word investment keeps getting into the conversation. What kind of a return am I going to get on my money? >> George, you're our statistical expert. Answer the matter. >> There are some national survey figures on this, but the return on your money is mainly going to depend on the size of your shop and how hard you go after the business. Keep in mind that ding and dent work is in and out fast. You get a terrific turnover, so you don't have your bays tied up with long drawn out jobs. What I'm saying is that you get good efficiency from your floor space. All these things considered, figure about a 30% gross return on a twoman shop up to 45% gross on a 15-man operation. Do you make that on your service department? >> Man, that's great. I'm really getting steamed up about this. I had no idea. Wait a minute. I can't run a bigger shop without good refinishers. They don't grow on trees, you know. >> Glad to hear you say it. >> Thanks a lot. I think what Joel means is he's glad you realize you need top-notch craftsmen. And if you're going to stay efficient, you have to plan for future expansion of your personnel, too. One way to do this is to work out a kind of leazison arrangement with a trade school or vocational high school. These schools are anxious to cooperate, and they're a good source of trained body and paintmen. To help things along, your service manager or body shop foreman should talk to the class from time to time. Give them the benefit of his experience. Explain that they're preparing for a bright future in an important profession. In connection with these talks, your people might offer to show some movies on refinishing techniques. Your paint supplier can arrange for these. Another way to get good men is to bring them along yourself. Set up a shop training system where young guys can serve as apprentices right beside your best workmen. This way, they can learn exactly what's expected of them, and they'll also find out what they can expect from you. It's important for new men to realize that skilled body and paint men are real pros. Craftsmanship is still number one on the list of qualifications because your place has to turn out work fast. Yet, it has to be the best with no shortcuts. Then you and all your people can be proud of it. The real test comes when the customer sees it. If it's done right, you'll gladly pay a fair price and you'll be making a fair profit, too. In fact, you're going to find having a good paint and body business will bring up the profit of your whole dealership. >> Yeah. How come? >> The main reason is that customers like the one-stop service idea. It's logical and handy for them to have their mechanical service and body work done in the same place. The automakers checked on this. They discovered that dealers that have good body shops get a gross service profit about 7% higher than the average. You'll find that you sell more new cars, too. It's a matter of building up the customer's confidence in your whole operation. They get in the habit of coming to you for everything. Put all these things together and you've got a fair index to the amount of money you're losing right now. >> You said it. I am losing money and I didn't even know it. Now, you guys have done me a big favor and I want you to know I appreciate it. >> You're welcome. >> Our pleasure. >> Don't mention it. >> And I'll tell you something else. Beginning right away, my Payton Body Shop is going to go go. Heat. Heat. [Music] Oh, Calvin Productions. Um, yeah, everything's better when there's a go-go dancer in it. Uh, maybe that that Let's Count Second Edition, if it had a go-go dancer, it would have been more palatable. I I don't know. I don't know. But, uh, thanks so much for joining us today. 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