A/V Geeks @ Hunt Library

hey okay okay here we go hi everybody hi virginia hey uh welcome everyone to av geeks at the hunt library not at the hunt library on uh zoom and many other platforms today i'm virginia ferris from the special collections research center at nc state university libraries and this is our 15th semester of this series partnering in csu folks with raleigh's av geeks to discuss vintage educational and classroom films skip alzheimer the founder of av geeks is an nc state alum he has been for the last few decades collecting films made throughout the last century mostly 16 millimeter educational training and other sorts of how-to movies he does an incredible job sharing them with the world and he currently houses over 36 000 such films at the av geeks archive here in raleigh and shares them as stock footage for films and exhibits for research material and during public events like this one so today our theme is too many forks and i am our guest expert though i'm not an expert at all in table manners i just know about one of these films and i i know something i've done a little bit of research as a librarian into uh table manners but i am the my role at the libraries is the interim lead librarian for outreach engagement and curation for the special collections research center where i work with our teaching program with outreach events and generally kind of spreading the word about the amazing unique rare original materials that we collect at the special collections research center so um and also just a reminder that over 200 of av geeks compilations are available for checkout from the libraries you can also visit avgeeks.com or search avgeeks on youtube or at archive.org so i'll hand it over to you skip to kick us off well virginia you said you're not an expert but you have eaten before i have yes we know a lot more than we realize about table manners just by eating at a table um so this this uh is exciting uh because you are part of the library staff i work with to do av geeks of the hunt library and we decided that you guys uh know a lot of stuff just because you work at the library and you also have personal interests and so we kind of put it back to the the people who helped organize this to kind of pick things and so tell me about why you picked this this bit and um a little bit about it and then we'll watch it yeah sure so i uh wanted to find something interesting in the special collections digitized films that you have been a huge part of digitizing so we've been able to put those online you can find those online at www.lib.ncsu.edu scrc that's a lot of letters but we have these films digitized a lot of films from the agricultural extension service because extension is a big part of what nc state does historically sort of creating knowledge on campus around agriculture around home demonstration kind of home economics the art and science of keeping a home targeting rural women men families communities so there are some really interesting films and other materials about um the best and newest ways to do things in your your farm in your home uh with your family in your kitchen like canning is a big topic this sort of technology that came about in the early 20th century that people wanted to learn how to do and women and daughters especially um but there was a series that the extension service uh broadcast called aspect um beginning in the 1950s and through the 60s and and onward i'm not sure exactly how long it ran but if broadcast uh seems to be sort of the public television channels of north carolina would uh put this tv program out um on a daily basis in uh some parts of par portions of its career um that was kind of like a variety show of different extension topics um it could be something about you know growing uh peanuts or sweet potatoes or it could be something about a new uh kind of farming equipment or just some topics related to agriculture in the state but home demonstration was the portion of agricultural extension that really targeted women and girls in north carolina so you would see sometimes women who represented the home demonstration service talking about different topics uh on how to do things in your home and with your family um and how to cook certain things or the nutritional value of certain things for your family or budgeting and shopping and things like that so um i found this film uh that features a home demonstration agent named mildred morris um she uh presented about table manners on the aspect show um it's a short little clip um but i just think it's really interesting um her accent is amazing for one and uh i think i'll just let you play it and we can talk about it more i uh this of course when you presented this to me i was like oh my gosh i got so we could do two hours on table manners so but this is fascinating because this was shown on television uh and it's as you said very north carolina so let's go ahead and watch uh aspect i kind of showed the beginning of it and then kind of what leads into uh this was a full episode uh it was like 30 minutes long i think and so it was filled with music and talked about sweet potato grading and all this stuff so let's watch aspect in the table manners a segment take me a second switch [Music] aspects relating the findings of research to the practical life of the agriculture the home anchor the businessman the consumer the sportsman and the home gardener ask best revealing advancements in knowledge which mean a better way of life [Music] aspects the crossroads of research and education [Music] aspects produced by the agricultural extension service of north carolina state college now your host hank wilkinson speaking of class i sometimes feel like maybe i should be at the bottom of the class when it comes to manners i'm talking about table manners i try but maybe i just haven't been informed what is correct maybe you have some questions on table matters if you do home economics editor for the north carolina every cost extension service maybe morris might have the answer you know sometimes i think you might be shocked if you saw your children eating in the cafeteria at school or maybe when they visited one of their playmates for the night um i want you to remember that if you don't practice good table manners at home then i'm afraid we'll forget them when we go off visiting today i want to talk to you just a few minutes about some of the things that uh we often think about now i want you to remember if you're a mother or father that your child is watching you the way you eat the things that you do so unless you practice these good table manners i'm afraid they're going to fail to do so too uh one of the first things that i want to mention is that when you sit down at the table uh sit down from the left side of the child and when you get up get up from the left side this will keep you from busting into the people who are sitting next to you then about the next thing that you do is pick up your napkin i hope that when you open your napkin you don't pick it up and shake it open over the table before you place it in your lap but if it is folded so the edges are near the edge of the fork pick it up and put it in your lap and then let it fall open i think that will help you a little bit if you're trying to remember that now one of the other things that i think we have more trouble with especially than children and that is how we hold our knives and forks when we pick up our fork don't take it like you're fixing to really cut something tough so many of us grab our knife in one hand and are forcing the other and we just try to cut so hard but instead of that turn your fork over with the prongs down with your fourth finger on the back of your fork that will give you pressure so that you can hold the knee in place then take your knife and place your fourth finger on the uh back of the blade and then you can cut easily it will not slip out of your plate now our custom is after you have cut off a few pieces don't try to cut up the whole piece of steak at one time but just cut off a few pieces then place your knife either at the top of your plate or either at the side with the blade towards the plate and then you switch hands of course to each don't hold it like this but like this you will look more graceful and it's going to look better at meal times when you have feeding eating put all your utensils and tools on your plate do not leave anything on the table especially after you have used it because you do want to get everything back on the table uh before you finish now there are so many more things that we could cover but i hope that uh just these few things that we have mentioned you will remember it's the same way with your dishes to remember to um not pour your coffee in your saucer but to drink it from your cup like you're supposed to we're going to keep mentioning these things after you're finished touch your napkin beside the plate do not wad it up then remember to get up from the left side of your child put your chair under the table and you have finished eating hope you'll remember this too i was listening fixing two that's what she said that's that's the one thing when i moved down uh here from ohio when people were talking about fixing to do something wonderful um so why do you think uh i mean this you you might not know the answer to this but why do you think was so important to uh to teach uh manners like that well i think there's a sort of uh the history of manners it seems like the idea of having some kind of code of behavior at the table is a microcosm of being a good citizen of being courteous of respectful to the others that you're with and also a way of sort of performing your knowledge of the status that you want to belong to especially in american uh history just having a prescribed sort of set of behavior that you follow at the table the way you're showing the kind of person you are there's a lot of moral uh aspects of it but also a lot of status that you could uh sort of show that you uh are worthy of by knowing these things and it can lead to sort of snobbishness it can lead to elitism but i think there's a a kind of that framework uh at the table makes it so that people can um understand how to express their courtesy and respect for one another um and it's just interesting to see that on a show like aspect um where the audience would probably be adults you know adult men and women um a lot of the work of home demonstration was educating uh mothers and their children and and the kind of knowledge that um would bring a more advanced and efficient north carolina um and these are mostly probably uh rural yeah rural families yeah and i think a lot of the push for education around manners in america in the 20th century was sort of responding to urbanization and industrialization and you know people losing a sense of you know we all sit around the table we know each other we share the same values when that became less of a guarantee i think in more mobile and an urban kind of changing society there was more of a need to kind of prescribe the way to behave because you didn't necessarily know the person well who you're inviting to your home or you know you want your children to know the certain things that they would need to do to be seen as respectable members of society and that you know mothers were responsible for teaching that very uh kind of american tradition um especially at that time it's changed i think since then but it's just really interesting to see how like those those two values of being courteous and being kind of sanitary are the values that underwrite all manners education and history i guess that we've seen but they're expressed in different ways so seeing how the little details of how you hold your fork that's very specific to america at that time um it would be completely different in another place or another time but the whole goal of that's a way to express courtesy and you know cleanliness different rules um is sort of what it all breaks down to that's just interesting well something that um kind of just popped in my head is the fact that uh so i have so many of these films in my collection and i'm also the part of the premiere collection so this is a big thing uh and what's interesting is how many of these films are actually the main character is is a female and so you said that the mother was in charge of kind of you know keeping this going along uh trevor who was one of our uh folks talked about going to cotillion and it being run by a bunch of older women so like they're maintaining the the the etiquette and the ma the manners uh uh you know keeping us civilized um in this next film uh this is a date with your family uh and it's it's interesting because it kind of it's targeting a young girl and her having a date with her family but the idea is then at some point maybe she will have real dates and how will she behave on those dates and so let's watch a date with your family this boy and girl coming home from school look quite content with life and why not they're looking forward to an important date dinner at home with the family what's the matter doesn't that sound exciting to you well to them it's a special occasion as it has been ever since they sat down to dinner in high chairs why should they feel that way about something you take so completely for granted well let's see if we can find out first of all daughter has changed from school clothes to something more festive dressing a little makes her feel and consequently look more charming even the table takes on a special air mother too changes from her daytime clothes the women of this family seem to feel that they owe it to the men of the family to look relaxed rested and attractive at dinner time brother is spending an hour before dinner catching up on his homework he has plans evening perhaps that explains telephone call but he won't spend a lot of time on the phone either when there are several members of the family to be considered it is not a good idea for one member to monopolize the phone and it is never good to allow telephone conversations to interfere with studies hmm is it that late dad will be here any minute better tell mother she's needed in the kitchen brother notices the time and realizes that he must put things in order and clean himself up in time for dinner hello there junior is always in a hurry particularly for dinner but first there's a cleanup job to do on this young man brother takes it upon himself to help share junior's responsibility for keeping their room in good order and keeping junior in good order too punctuality is stressed in this household by that i mean hair is combed and faces and hands scrubbed before the boys come to the table so they won't delay the meal now mother and daughter put the finishing touches on the dinner father two looks forward to this date with the family he has had a hard day at the office and in his briefcase are some contracts which must be looked over tonight but in the meantime he will relax at dinner with those he loves a simple centerpiece made from some flowers which grow in the backyard is another of daughter's contributions to the dinner but it takes up a little too much room so she moves it to the sideboard these boys greet their dad as though they are genuinely glad to see him as though they had really missed being away from him during the day and are anxious to talk to him this is the time for pleasant discussion in a thoroughly relaxed mood they don't pick this time of the day to spring unpleasant surprises on dead if they have disagreeable news they'll postpone the discussion until another time and this is no time to done father for a raise in your allowance new clothes or argue about other financial matters ah dinner time yes mother junior remembered to clean up brother seats junior then helps mother to her chair as he would his best girl well the dinner date has begun and they're all happy about it many families throughout the country observe the custom of saying grace at meal time it is always treated with reverence and respect napkins on the lap the family awaits service they converse pleasantly while dad serves i said pleasantly for that is the keynote at dinnertime it is not only good manners but good sense pleasant unemotional conversation helps digestion father serves mother first then daughter then the boys don't worry fellas you won't get left help cut your meat junior of course by example older children can teach younger ones good table manners no one starts eating until father has served himself always wait for the hostess in this case mother to begin eating before you start let father and mother guide the conversational trend if they desire after all they made all this possible and may want to talk over their day with each other tell mother how good the food is maybe cess rates a compliment too it makes them want to continue pleasing you well all this is good general advice but there are some specific don'ts maybe the family will demonstrate for us don't monopolize the conversation and go on and on without stopping nothing destroys the charm of a meal more quickly to say that the rest of the group is bored would be a gross understatement don't discuss unpleasant topics such as gruesome sights or sounds or unpleasant occurrences this is a time of pleasure of charm and relaxation remember don't make unkind comparisons about your stand of living the dinner table is no place for discontent it makes dad and mother uncomfortable and unhappy don't insult your brother or sister with offensive remarks about friends arguments harsh words mean tension and distress for everyone do remember simply this treat the other members of your family with the same respect and cordiality you would show your most treasured friend outside the family circle this does not mean you should be stiff or formal with your own family you can relax be yourself just be sure it's your best self this is better now things are on an even keel again now we're ready for dessert most families don't have maids so mother needs help with the serving from the kitchen sun says mother is done enough watch him play butler the removal of dishes from the main course and the serving of dessert set the stage for the conclusion of a thoroughly pleasant meal do you begin to see now how a date with your family can be a truly special occasion do you know why brother and sister looked forward to the evening when the dinner hour at home is treated with a certain amount of graciousness and ceremony it can be memorable there is no family so poor but that the evening meal can be eaten in an atmosphere of warmth and gentleness there is no family so busy but that it can come together in the evening for a dinner date which will give its members something to look back upon with happiness all their days [Music] um so what's interesting is i totally confused that film with another film i have that's very similar to it oh really it's made it's made in the 60s and i was trying to find the title of it but it's basically this girl prepares with her family to go through what it's like to go on a date and oh interesting yeah and wow yeah i mean this one is obviously wonderful yeah i love this one yeah um you know and it's all about the so i so when i show these films i talk about that these are social engineering films and that term may not really apply but it it's basically teaching you how to to be social amongst you know your family like be proper and this is what dinner dinner's about and um you know then when you go out to eat that you know there's a that should extend or if you're at a a dinner party like what do you do how do you behave in this film is very much related to that yeah but yeah the it's fascinating yeah daddy eats first the gender and the roles around gender are so uh such perfect examples of what the sort of 1950s ideals were for white middle-class families and you know watching it's just you know exactly what you'd expect but the shock of hearing you know the women of the family feel that they owe it to the men to to look relaxed and attractive and rested at dinner time that there's this sort of expectation that um it's the women's domain in the home to kind of create an experience that makes the men whether it's your father your husband your brother your son find you attractive and feel relaxed and pleasant in your company um you know not just about the food but also the the atmosphere um and you know the boys the sons are also part of that you know not don't bring up unpleasant conversations or ask for money or argue or talk about unpleasant things um this idea of just you know not offending anybody especially dad because he's the income earner of the family he's had a hard day at the office let's just keep it civil and easy and relaxed and charming those sort of values were just so clear in this film and you know in some instances i guess i've seen on sitcoms or uh you know dressing for dinner the idea that you know that's what boys have to do is they have to wash up and they have to dress for dinner um because this is a special you know event and now um so this next film is a coronet film and uh coronet is an educational film company who made thousands of educational films and of course they have at least three or four films that deal with eating uh banners uh and this but this one is is really great because it's uh involves a little sci-fi thing to it which is basically uh and this is the main character is actually a young man and he is visited by a college age version of himself who comes to teach him about uh good table manners um and i like that they both wear the same sweater um there's coronet i call it the coronet sweater that there's a lot of people that wear that sweater it shows up in a lot of films um so and i've actually scanned the original camera elements of this film and i can probably tell you what color the sweater is maybe i'll while we're watching it maybe i'll try to dig up and you will see what color the cornet sweater is but here is good table manners okay [Music] i hope you got something good to eat tonight all right ma'am the coach really gave us a workout oh boy damn i'm so hungry i could eat up i need to see what he gave us to do sure huh could you serve yourself in a in a less athletic manner oh is this better jack at least you could manage to be on time after your mother goes to all the trouble to prepare a fine meal it's it's only common courtesy chuck i know but i couldn't help but i was late home from school never mind he did wash up and brush his hair by the way chuck i saw barbara's mother downtown that's quite a separate party she's planning is it this friday i'm not going why not do i have to have a reason but all your friends will be there ain't crying don't talk with your mouth full good night jeff you're alright you have a good time thank you chuck oh who wants to go to a supper you do chuck huh who are you we're looking into the future chuck i am the young man you are going to be in a few short years well if you say so and take it from me when we're my age we won't be turning down invitations maybe not tell me why aren't you going i don't know i do you're worried about not doing the right thing you're table manners now you're talking like mom and dad look you may not care much about table manners now but when you grow up to be me then you'll care but why why does it matter for several reasons look maybe i can show you let's imagine the family at dinner with nobody mining manners not very pretty is it each person busy feeding his face showing no consideration for the others people become irritated angry no one can enjoy a meal like this no meal time is a time for pleasure and relaxation it's the best opportunity the family has to talk together exchange bits of news make plans when everybody eats properly the meal goes better and everybody has more fun what's more when we relax and enjoy ourselves we digest our food better and ask your doctor if that isn't important to your health but there's more what's that how long now before you'll be going out to make your own way in the world not very long i guess and whatever you do wherever you go you'll want to put your best foot forward here let's try another trick let's change that to a table in a restaurant you're taking a girl out to dinner to make a good impression you must know what to do who seats the girl when you sit how to order your meal of course the girl wants to know these things too in order to show herself at her best then you must know how to eat your meal and the only way to have good table manners when you want them is to practice them regularly at home get in the habit of eating properly so it just comes naturally or take another case say you're having lunch with your boss say he's thinking about somebody to fill a good position that's opening up well put yourself in the boss's place would you give the job to a fellow like this or to a fellow who thinks that table manners are silly you see what i mean about putting your best foot forward table manners are important because people judge many things about you just by the way you eat all right maybe so but it's it's also complicated is it look there's nobody here let's try it out what do you mean come on besides that supper party sounds good if we know what to do i think we'll want to go well look sharp now there there is a play setting properly arranged it looks alright but what am i supposed to do that's the question well what would you do if you sat down to dinner and found three fours like this i'd probably end up with one left over and wonder what i did wrong not if you remember one simple rule always use silverware from the outside in so starting from the outside use this for your salad this for your main course and this why that one must be for the dessert you see it's easy but there's something funny here doesn't the butter knife belong here well the book says either place and speaking of the book it wouldn't hurt you to use one sometime and check up on any point that you're not sure of sure we have some books in school but i'll have to be careful who sees me reading it don't worry you can manage that and now to use these things let's have some food say it's too bad you've just eaten yeah excuse me things will be easier if you'll remember that in eating there are three kinds of food finger foods pork foods and spoon food now clean dry foods bread is one of them are finger foods but when you have something that's messy or sticky you better use a fork yeah like a cream puff that's the idea now four foods include meat potatoes vegetables salads and many others there's a right way to hold a fork and this is it don't put onto your fork any more than one mile full of food oh yes after you've placed food on your fork if you decide to talk lay it down until you're ready to eat it looks better and this is the way to park a fork after you've used it not propped up on the edge of the plate huh that's the idea here now you try it okay now with some fork food we need a knife let's see how you use it the folks say i do it wrong hey that's not only the wrong way it's the hard way here try this put the ends of both the handles in the palms of your hands like that hold the meat with your fork and cut the meat don't tear it apart see this is better you see your table manners are just common sense is that right yes that's the way most people in america handle their knife and pour we don't have to worry with the european method but now after you finished eating i have you place your knife and fork this way you're sure that you have finished but what about spoon food oh yes all right how do you manage soup uh you don't pull me on this one you never tip the bowl and you dip the soup away from you not too much in the spoon and you eat from the side of the spoon precisely and now would you care for some turnips you know i can't bear no thank you that's the idea chuck courtesy consideration for others common sense that's what table matters are you mean that's all there is to table manners just what we've talked about oh no but you already know a great deal and you can learn still more by watching mother and dad and other people who have good men but the main thing is the main thing is is to practice at home so that table manners will come naturally and i won't have to think about them when i'm out you can't miss oh let's do the dishes mother should see that well chuck are we going to that party sure we are we are that's right chuck we are going to the party you can't see me any longer but remember i'm the fellow you're going to be so i'm interested in seeing that you always make a good impression this really is an artist you know what to do that's right ladies first into the dining find your place and remain standing [Music] and also remember you're here not to see how fast you can eat but the time yeah well our boy is doing all right don't you think don't you think you can do the same [Music] all right so um here is a still wow that i scanned uh from the original camera materials that were shot they shot uh all their stuff on kodachrome and so here is there's the coronet sweater so cool two of them and that that sweater shows up in multiple uh coordinate films and it's not those actors that are necessarily wearing them so i don't know if they just had kind of a bunch of clothes that they set up for people or [Music] what the deal was with that but um yes like definitely a great collector's item and halloween costume idea yes uh a halloween costume that like you know only 10 people in the whole people would know [Laughter] so uh your mom how are you gonna teach your kid about uh table manners my daughter is almost two years old and we're just happy if she doesn't throw it you know feed our dog like there's there's a very different kind of expectation i think uh just teaching her by how we eat um and i think that what's important for me to teach her is just showing uh gratitude and appreciation that's sort of what i learned growing up is you know you thank the person who made the food and you know you don't make a mess that's sort of like the rules i was taught and but i think there's so much uh like uh i don't want to teach my daughter about sort of repressive uh fear and shame based table manners education that many generations did not get you know like there that's it's a lot of fear and shame um you know if you don't do it the right way you are uncivilized and you're not gonna ever get a job or find a mate you know like that's sort of the the promise of good manners is success in life in business and in personal life and um it's just a kind of it's a heavy heavy load um that's you know not necessarily a guarantee obviously so um where did you learn table manners did you learn it from the family or did you were there outside sources that influenced i learned it from my family and it wasn't a big focus in my kind of mom dad and myself nuclear household but um my grandmother my dad's mother was uh more serious about teaching it i remember as a i was maybe like eight seven or eight years old my best friend and i stayed with my grandmother for a few weeks in the summer and she had sort of a mini etiquette boot camp for us at the table she had a little bowl in front of each of our place settings where she'd put like a dime or a nickel anytime we did something right like if we didn't have our elbows on the table or if we didn't like pick our nose it was a pretty low bar um but she tried to teach us you know it wasn't it wasn't a formal thing like you eat you set your fork this way the way a lot of these films showed it was basically just don't embarrass me when you go out into public kind of um education for my grandmother and um her big thing was like writing thank you notes that was you know it's not table manners but she really really um impressed that upon me from a young age and so she was sort of the the role model i always looked up to as uh how to be and um you know how to show respect and not offend people at the table um but yeah i think it's just it's the kind of thing that you don't really consciously learn in most situations and there are schools there are there you know historically have been charm schools and finishing schools and there are things called protocol schools now that you could find there's one in north carolina they're around the country that focus on like teaching etiquette for professional settings and creating you know more success and opportunities for people by teaching them etiquette that's the idea but i think so much of table managers international if you travel yeah exactly there's sort of a different criteria cultural sensitivity and manners um but so much of it is just it's ingrained in us we don't even realize that we've learned it it's just the way that we um sit down the way we serve ourselves the way we talk at the table there's certain topics people like to you know some people would want to avoid some others don't really care and it's it's very subjective and context specific to um you know where you live when you're living what your values are you know gender race class there's just there's a lot of uh diversity i guess to what uh the ways that manners can show up and i think the idea of manners is such a it sort of makes you feel like oh this is so stuffy and uh restrictive but when you really think about it it's just the ways that people express um respect courtesy avoid you know bad hygiene and sanitation issues um but also show how they aspire to be um i think that's the sort of aspirational aspect of manners so um it's easy to sort of be like uh manners are uh outdated idea but um i think that's not giving enough credit to how like you actually have internalized a lot of it and you're teaching people all the time just in the way that you you behave at the table it's just sort of a a cultural expression that none of us can really control how we express the ways that we've learned it but it's fascinating to really think about it and look at it in different time periods like these films oh i don't hear you're experts on um manners but i did ask uh the people watching if they had questions for us and the first one i'll take which is why did coronet shoot in color if the films were distributed in black and white or were there black and white color versions kevin asked that and yes there were color and black and white versions the color versions were more expensive than the black and white versions um what's interesting is many of the color versions faded uh because they used a cheaper film stock and the black and white is looks pretty good but they shot in color for that for that reason that they could do either uh the next question um you may know uh virginia maybe but i know you kind of glossed over a book about etiquette uh somebody asks uh when were table manners heavily implemented they mentioned the 50s and 60s is that that the main time period or was there in the united let's just say in the united states um i'd say in the united states that's probably a pretty big part part sort of the post-world war ii era when so much was changing in society there was a greater need to sort of have a set of rules that everyone agreed upon and especially um kind of historically with table manners or any sort of prescriptive behavior standards um tends to be the people who are aspiring to that status that that are are most interested in learning and uh imposing that on their families or their their communities um so i think a lot of the sort of upward mobility of you know the white middle class world in the 1940s 50s really wanted to impress upon children especially how to behave in a way that will get you to another uh standard of living during that time when it was possible but i have to recommend if you're interested in sort of the history of manners i reached out to a good friend who's a phd candidate unc chapel hill casey hi smith she recommended a book that is really fascinating called the uh the rituals of dinner by margaret visser and i just sort of looked through it this morning but there's a nice summary of sort of where manners came from at least in the white european kind of context um coming from like the medieval period uh through the renaissance and versailles and then um kind of how it showed up in an american society so um the things that we take for granted like um not throwing your food in the corner or you know controlling bodily functions at the table those were not taken for granted at one time so um the things that you or i or my toddler are is learning right now are things that adults had to learn from scratch at one point in in history so um it's just a fascinating kind of thing to learn about human behavior over time book that you referenced how far up does it go like is it does it stop kind of in contemporary times or does it i think so because it seems like there's more challenges now um you know so somebody asked about this like how do you mention the fact that you have maybe food allergies or you have dietary restrictions how does that do you mention that you know do you mention that before you sit down and eat even is that something yeah you know and then also how do we deal with taco tuesdays like awkward tuesdays you can't really use forks and knives yeah tacos right yeah or poke bowls or you know whatever um so i'm wondering who is dictating the new uh etiquette yeah i mean i don't know who the expert is now i know like emily post and miss manners and historically have been i think there are probably other people you who are advice manners advice columnists but i think so much of it is just defined together as whatever your community is and um there's a lot of anxiety about it because you want to you know if you're having a dinner you want to serve your guests something they can eat if they have dietary restrictions you want to know that but they're anxious about how to express that to you it's you know trying to find a way to just be open and communicating what we need and i think about that too with with coved right now there's a lot of conversations about like the etiquette of getting together around covet and expressing your level of comfort and you know vaccination status or whatever it's just really uh there's a lot of anxiety around manners and etiquette and i understand why because trying to find the right way to show respect can can backfire because we have different understandings of that and some cultures you know eating with a lot of gusto at the table uh is a way to show appreciation but in other cultures showing restraint and offering food to other people first is the way to show respect so it's just different ways of expressing the same values um that can get miscommunicated or misunderstood so there's a lot of like i read something in this book about how uh the goal of manners in an american society in sort of the mid 20th century was to sort of to pass as uh unremarkable you know like to be able to show i know how to do things means you're you you grew up in a civilized setting if you make a mistake at the table that sets you apart and um you know infractions are uh remarkable and set you up as someone to to avoid or you know that doesn't understand how to behave and polite society that's that's similar to what my driver's ed teacher said which is that the best you know best thing of you driving is a remarkable unremarkable unmemorable trip yeah right you know don't do anything that's gonna like raise everybody's hackles and and all that someone uh asked and this is a good general question i don't know you know it's it's good to kind of think about do you think that the need for to present oneself as a calm and pleasant person could have actually caught during dinner could have actually caused people more stress by not giving them the space to discuss their troubles totally yeah that's something that really stood out to me in the date with your family that you know being unemotional and avoiding unpleasant topics is super important in that film and i think that is such a a pattern that generations after that have been trying to break um that you know in a family setting if you can't express emotions or difficult conversations um there's a lot that's not getting discussed or processed and you know you're gonna need a lot of therapy one day and like you know the dinner table is a good place to to kind of share and be your your full self and in that film you know it says be yourself but be your best self don't bring up those difficult topics like just be be this kind of person so as not to offend other people and ideas um emotions were offensive to the kind of family that that family wanted to present themselves as so yeah i think that's a major takeaway for me is that no that's not how i want to raise my daughter that you know don't talk about your emotions or express true things and feelings um you know it's it's a major uh note that i had to right uh someone uh says i wonder if the newest form of etiquette could be related to how to conduct yourselves in digital spaces especially with social media and widespread use of zoom as a meeting space i mean certainly that is there's you know there's faux pas and zoom um all the time and trying to come up with a level of you know i don't even know do people eat on zoom honestly i i looked up when i was looking up like the protocol schools there are there's a blog post on one i think it's the north carolina protocol school about etiquette on zoom and one of them says one of the points is don't eat no one wants to see that you know it's just some of these things i don't agree with but i think it's so telling that that's what we're we want to know like how should i behave in this new setting because i need rules to feel comfortable you know i want to know what the right thing to do is and and you know not everybody does but like that's just a human instinct to say uh how can i be how can i show up and be heard effectively without distracting from myself by making some faux pas um so yeah there's a lot i think there's a lot of conversations about you know zoom etiquette and things like that there's they're very specific to this time we're living in yeah interesting well virginia thank you for suggesting this topic um yeah and kind of going down this little rabbit hole of all the different forks um yeah so many [Laughter] yeah um yeah thank you skip and uh for our audience remember to visit avgeeks.com for more info and check out compilations um in the physical library collections as well our next show is on february 25th at 3 p.m and our guest will be justin haynes who is a university library technician in the library's maker space and he'll be talking with skip about a combination of films from skip's collection on the topic of making things so tune in then and until then you can watch previous uh episodes of our av geeks at the library's shows through the library's website um thanks again so much skip thanks so much have a good weekend