A TIME TO SPEAK A TIME TO LISTEN

it appears to me that uh the navy has has been very relaxed and trying and even trying to recruit black well no you see us here right now right right okay we're trying to recruit blacks right right okay if you don't go in how are we gonna increase the numbers well i'll say this what you see is confrontation dialogue between a man in uniform and a college student this film deals with communication it is constructed from excerpts of unrehearsed interviews and on-the-scene campus recruiting efforts by the united states navy okay but it's here right right right it's here i mean but it's like it's like uh when you when you're out trying to sell your product to the people you don't mention at one time put it on one bulletin board you just you display it time and time again right but you have to start somewhere right right okay so this is a start lieutenant commander norm johnson believes he has found a place for black dignity in the navy his job is convincing others of that fact as a minority recruiting officer for the navy bureau of personnel in washington d.c it's a very difficult job you're fighting years of poor image i mean trying to improve the image of the navy in the eyes of the minority so that they'll realize that the navy is truly equal opportunity employer whereas my job to ensure that all minority groups are aware of the equal opportunity and are given the chance to participate in the navy both officers and enlisted we have the intensified recruitment program in the poverty areas of cities that's a program to get enlisted from the property poverty areas and get them into the service because the service as you know is a training ground it is a mixing part also we have the minority recruiting effort as i said we sent out minority group officers to spread the word that the navy is the equal opportunity employer unless we bring the all americans into the mainstream american life and have them participate and get what they richly deserve because minorities have been paying their taxes throughout the chairman of the united states and they've been uh participating with their life and limb defending the united states in all wars it's about time that they start reaping the benefits and i myself as a career navy officer believe that the navy is a benefit it is here at the pentagon where equal opportunity policies for the armed forces are developed el howard bennett acting deputy assistant secretary of defense for civil rights discusses the navy's image problem the navy has had a difficult time a very difficult time all of us know that the navy has not had the kind of image as the other services a lot of negroes not knowing still believe that the navy is still a lily white organization or that if a negro does go into the navy he's not accorded the opportunity for a variety of military occupations as let us say in the army or the air force now this is no longer true at one time the whole stewards messman's category was about 100 percent negro today that figure is at about seven percent neat grass the image is bad primarily because of problems that have occurred in the past and no information has been put out about the new navy or the new marine corps we're all sort of suffering under the activities of the navy or the policies of the navy in the early 40s negroes were categorically put into positions of servitude mainly the stood branch in the navy but somebody has to be a waiter or a cook or a store keeper everybody can be captain on the ship but when you get the ship to where she's ready for the job she was built for when you're there in battle what you did before doesn't count anymore what matters now is what you do in battle like your ship that's your main job fighting and believe me when it comes to fighting the stewards mates are right in there with the rest of them that's real teamwork sir you bet it is it makes me proud just to be anywhere on the team and johnson don't ever forget this about stewart's mates they may pour soup between battles but in battle they pour lead with the best of them it is hard to believe that the navy was that way then when we look at the way it is now i remember particularly when i first went to great lakes for duty this was my first permanent assignment i was told there was no room in the boq well this wasn't too unusual in the war but when i found out i couldn't go to the club and i couldn't get a haircut in the barber shop and i couldn't eat lunch and officer's mess i thought that this was a little strange and they told me that i would be welcome to eat in the second class petty officer's nest and this was where the other 13 negro officers were already eating and this was not the ideal situation by me well as time went on treatment of blacks in the military improved greatly in fact in july of 1948 president truman issued an executive order number 9981 which proclaimed his policy of equality of treatment for all regardless of race creed color a place of national origin we saw that integration worked during the korean conflict we see it working now during a present conflict however we still have problems such as with off-base housing but we do have procedures within the department of defense and the navy to try to combat these prejudices to change an image means that you have got to really produce facts and situations which are demonstrable of the change that's the first step you've actually got to change and secondly you've got to project the change you've got to publicize it these men are the new their very presence indicates change they must project this on the black campus if they are to recruit the type of man they're looking for their work takes them to over 50 predominantly black colleges throughout the country the faculty students i am delighted to be your guest this morning on your assembly program now today i visited somewhat twofold in that i am here to make a presentation and we are all here as a native information team uh serving as recruiters our basic purpose our main purpose is to disseminate information to you concerning the opportunities for qualified individuals in the navy [Applause] [Music] [Applause] what happens you don't have what you call a basis you have uh officer candidates at school that is your officer officer training you would take a preliminary screening test requires a physical examination they will review and they say well this looks like a good applicant we'll select him boy he doesn't look so good we'll reject him okay now once you're selected for officer candidate school you will go 18 weeks in newport rhode island 16 weeks academic first week was in process and last week is our processor and upon completion successful completion of that you'll receive a commission that's instant we have a three-year obligation after you receive your commission and told tote total time in office candidates as an office candidate will be approximately 18 weeks and three years there after and if you accepted false candidacy once you got your degree in june you were born off the county school to draft football i feel that really just my presence being just talking to the students not necessarily about the navy of course questions will automatically come but about anything he wants to talk about i think that uh i'm making uh the navy's image more favorable in the eyes of the negro or the black people and uh i think that i'm being accepted by most i think it's less than one percent of the students that i've ever met on campus that really rejected me and uh i remember we mentioned a couple of nights ago about being called an uncle tom and i've been called an uncle tom i've been called a traitor to the black race and a little bit of everything by black people however these same gents or guys will stand up and talk to you and you can kind of win them over you know a little bit you know maybe not all the way but they'll listen to you do you think that this increase in population uh black will uh eliminate some of this discrimination oh surely right sure you're never gonna eliminate all but just the fact that they live with us on a ship and see that we can hack everything that they have in other words we can participate we can perform just as adults as they have and that we know just as much as they will if you change one man you've done something you know the more contact they have with us the better off they're going to be that's the way i have a lot of people that you know you serve with come to realize you know you know different you get from the morning shades just like everyone else watch your days they'll get dressed in water do your thing that's the same thing they're doing when you live together on a ship they see you know there's no real difference you both have the same election just like you want to get home you want to do the same things they do if some of us did not participate in the military so we're participating in all schemes of american life don't you think that the other side would have an excuse to say we're not doing our share you figure one thing now one thing that irks me is that i pay my taxes every year right i do everything that the law requires every year and i expect the same benefits right and i like to see you getting the same benefits and i feel that my being in there ensures you getting the same benefits that i think you should be getting right and that's part of what i'm working for because if i didn't believe that my being in here was helping you do your thing out here i would not be in so i'm worried about the economics of the situation and where i stand because i still have a housing problem you know no matter what they say about it when i go to look for a house and they're in this uniform they don't look at this uniform they look at the black face right so that's economics right there and that's the site i'm worried about what he's planning on doing well as you know i'm not going to get here and tell you that it's all rosy outside there because babe you don't believe that and i don't either you know but uh going back to the draft card each of us has our own bag this pay this is a this is my job this pays good money i have a good living by it and i enjoy it and especially what i'm doing now i feel as though i'm performing a good social no i have a good social mission here to get more of the brothers in and let them know what's going on inside because they're not enough of us in there what is it like to be black in a predominantly white institution what sort of problems does the black officer face lieutenant commander edward seacrest the sixth negro to graduate from the naval academy and now an instructor there speaks frankly of the situation the fact that i am a lieutenant commander in the navy means that i am equal to other lieutenant commanders and if these lieutenant command other lieutenant commanders have come from backgrounds where they should have accomplished more by comparison to what my background is there's an irritation there and so they soothe this irritation by saying well he is the exception and this is where i generally am very over in pointing out to them uh i was at the most average in my all negro high school class and in general i think i could be considered below average so in what position does that put them you see this puts them completely on the defensive but i think that this is certain to a certain extent as a sort of offensive advice but i think it also is a learning process for them if i as an average individual can accomplish what they as a supposedly an above average individual accomplished then that potential there in that ghetto perhaps is a lot greater than a lot of people think it is i think the presence of more negro officers in the navy i think will do uh immeasurable good as far as changing the attitudes of people because essentially most of the youth of today will have to spend some sort of time and just this exposure because so many people come from backgrounds where they aren't uh ever exposed uh to members of minority groups except in a servitude situation and you were saying earlier that you came to the navy because of the fact that there weren't very many black brothers today that's right don't you feel that uh by you're not uh being associated with other black brothers and sisters that uh you somewhat lose touch with the with the presidency i didn't say i wasn't associated with them no because i go home all the time and visit all my friends i don't forget where i come from in other words you go home for a leave of about two weeks and you catch up on what's been what's been going on no i don't say i catch up on anything but i catch up on all that ideal care to catch up with all i have time to catch up with because one thing i have a family to support this is my profession so i have to work within the parameters of my profession to do the best i can to get promoted now if going back to my family and to my friends back home and picking up uh something that they're doing it's not going to benefit me to help feed my family make it a little easier but i'm not going to know it those are the attitudes that right now we're trying to change you see what's that uh what you just said in other words i'm out here for myself i didn't say it was out here in other words no i didn't say it was out here for myself if i were out here for myself i would not be here talking to you right now you know i think uh for the most part that's why you asked me out here this is your job that's right but i would not have to stand here and talk with you but would you do this on your own if you weren't getting paid for it i certainly would right you we have all of us are volunteers he's a volunteer he has another job my job is not going out on the road my job is in the bureau of naval personnel in washington d.c now i do go on the road if i figure that for one thing i know this campus is the first time i was visited by a black officer so i wanted to come down and talk to people you're here because some white and i admire but whoever's over you has told you well look john brown you know like we're going to give you colors people you know a few opportunities in the navy you know so i want you to go to these colleges and run it down to the kids and tell them that in the future not the near future but the future the future anytime after today could be the future hours an hour from now can be the future and five million years i can well that's if that's the case i miss my whole point with you what i'm trying to say we had it when i came in back in 1957. we had it when i came in i'm not telling you that they're going to do it in the future i'm telling you they had it back then and it exists now in fact i am here with the rest of them to prove that we are living proof that it does exist not that they're going to promise you anything in the future this is something that's here now our redress system is here now our promotion system is here now and has been here and that's i don't i don't think that the changes could could result uh in uh such a short span of time that you that you stated earlier um it's evident in in white communities and that they haven't all of a sudden oh right well you can't equate the white community outside of the military community because the military you have forced obedience you have a chain of command you have a military policy and you can get someone by the code of military justice if they break a regulation where you who have redressed and you do not have in the civilian civilian community you can legislate integration in the military where you cannot do that outside and you can enforce it but that that's not true if they if say the captain is prejudiced that's right and the animal is prejudiced but then you have redress that's the whole point of having the equal opportunity branch in the navy and also having the civil rights grant and the department of defense if you know that then you can write in and something will be done from the department of defense level well i think that uh it's sheer nonsense to say that uh you cannot legislate in a way to change people's hearts one of the very interesting things is that if you put people in juxtaposition to each other and they learn about each other as persons and as individuals rather than as members of the negro community or the white community or an individual of jewish ancestry or a catholic but as just william johnson or james toliver you see the basic humanity of the person rather than your collective ideas uh about a group of people i really don't think that you will ever change the hearts of people but i think that you can make them recognize that their personal beliefs are not that important that the important thing is the general welfare and that the individual who has a black skin or religion different from their own or a different texture of hair or the length of his hair or the color of the suit that he's wearing has no bearing whatsoever on this individual's right to live the life that he so desires as long as it again does not substantially or really to any uh measurable extent detract from the general welfare don't you ever get bitter over the fact that you're a lieutenant commander in the navy you wear the uniform but there are places where you can't sleep or eat in this country oh definitely definitely especially when it comes to finding a place to live or buying a home when you know that there are many homes available and yet until you are only being shown at houses in certain areas you are only shown the sections that they they want you to live in period you know you come to a new city and you go to a real estate agent there's a map of all these places well they say we have nothing available here and we have nothing available there but we do have something in this one area nine times out of ten you're going to go there and you'll already find it's an integrated neighborhood they're not going to cause any trouble for themselves the way they feel about it i mean it happens to be a difference in the color of the money when it comes to something like that the bridge between black and white is green that is the way when it comes down to finding a house doing any anything else is truly purely economics and uh we could go into many hours of discussion about uh real estate procedures and that is one of the big problems that faces a service man on housing he may have integration on the base but when he steps outside the gate unless there's some caring by the commanding officer of that base to what he does when he steps outside we will never solve the problem of uh total integration in the navy in the country but the navy has taken uh great steps towards uh solving this with the interracial boards that are formed by the commanding officer and with the leading citizens of both races on the outside of the base and dod has looked into this and uh instruction is being updated to ensure that the practices of equal opportunity are being carried out but this still is a problem it's a definite problem as far as prejudices in a great majority i find that the navy isn't really that way and i think that it's getting better all the time although uh several years ago a negro couldn't become an officer in the navy the trend now has changed and i think he'll find that he might not be wholeheartedly accepted but by the ones that will reject him they won't openly show it and you never know i think that being a naval officer is one of the greatest challenges for a young black man at the time of this filming there were 26 black midshipmen at the naval academy that number has since increased almost twofold and continues to rise anthony watson is one of those black midshipmen you're home does it bother you at all that you're part of the white establishment well i don't know what you mean but bother me it uh do you think about it i think about it quite a bit especially here because there are only 26 of us here out of about 4 000 midshipmen and naturally it's on my mind quite a bit because the question you just asked me is what kind of situations do i run into when i go home well i'm always wondering if if i'll run into some people who are going to confront me with these type of questions and i'm always thinking about it and i'm always trying to think of an answer but there's there's no single answer that i can really think of i don't feel that uh at all being at the naval academy being only one half of a percent of the midshipmen that are here being black i don't feel that we've submitted at all to uh any white establishment we're just we're being treated as men here because we've all got a job to do and it's the same job for every michigan that's here and we try to get it done as a man what do you think is going to be the purpose of the navy for the next 10 years and there's a black man two persons and as a black man how do you pretend how do you attack how do you how are you going to participate what's going to be the objective of the navy in the next 10 years the next 10 years yeah the same thing they have a national security exploitation i think national security you went you asked me and you're answering that vietnam what exploitation no it's a security national security yes definitely definitely honestly i see you very much bringing march but i don't think it's national security that's your opinion american opinion that's why we don't have lbj right now well why do we have uh what are you going to do as a black man no yeah yo you're generalizing what i'm doing american opinion i'm an american there in america am i i can so are they so am i you're speaking for him i'm speaking for myself in chicago well what are y'all doing other than state college uh all over the united states all the predominantly black colleges and all the colleges and if there's a predominantly black college we try to send a few black officers there because we find we get better contact with the black students we can talk to them they're more willing to talk to us we can tell them our experience and show them that there are a few of us around and the next time i go downtown to see one of those signs why can't i see a black woman and a white man a white man and a black woman we're working on it you see people have to identify if i went downtown norm johnson's job reflects some of the conflicts and frustrations of today's society conflicts between races and generations in dealing with students he must walk a tight line between an institution which has equal opportunity and is sincere in its attempts at recruiting minorities and the skepticism of youth refusing to accept glossed over generalities they want facts and that is what johnson provides them the fact is that the navy does have equal opportunity and equal treatment and is making a concerted effort to increase black participation johnson is working for the day when there is no longer a need for his billet as a minority recruiting officer this will come about through the efforts of men like him who are willing to confront the questions and doubts of youth and from this interaction there can arise a mutual understanding it is a time to speak and a time to listen hmm foreign