WOI TV News Clip 452

Ralph Ellison, author of Invisible Man, participated in Focus at Iowa State, this is the annual Spring Festival of Arts. And, Mr. Ellison, you have first been known within the field of literature for a few years. You have gotten some important awards, which I could verbalize, but let me ask you this, which one of the various awards perhaps has been most satisfying for you as a writer? Well, because it came so early, I guess the National Book Award. It was quite a shock to find this being given you and it made me feel that that all of the time, some period of seven years over which I was writing the book, was well spent. And and and, something else too, that there was a a generosity of of attitude on the part of people in publishing who gave the awards. And that they were not going to put me in a in a second-class position because of my race, but they were interested in my ability to write. This was a very very important thing to discover when I was when I just published my first book. [Speer] Now, did this make, in a sense, a major difference as far as your real dedication to continue your writing? Would you have considered not writing without some of these encouragements? Oh no, the write you don't write for prizes. You you you write because this is the way you are most alive, the way you feel that you can be most effective in confronting life and society, yourself even so. They're the cream that comes, but you're, I'm not knocking it. I'm very proud of it indeed. You know, today the National Book Award is a cash sum of a thousand dollars. In my day, it was a gold medal, and I'm very proud of the medal because once in awhile now I can make a thousand dollars, but I can't pick up another one of those medallions. [Speer] The critics were kind to you, in a sense, from the very first, weren't they? Well, they were kind. Some were not. One very widely syndicated literary columnist described my book as a literary race riot. There were a few others who were short sighted in in in their descriptions of the book, but what can you do? You I don't fault them, but they didn't quite understand what was going on. Sometimes, the fact that my racial identity was more important than what I was writing about are how how I managed to write it, but generally, the the reviews were perceptive, and incidentally, some of the most perceptive reviews that I received were written by women, and they were women writing for papers in the south, and they were white. [Speer] How do you account for this? Well, I don't account for it, except there is no, no way of deciding where intelligence is going to show up in the United States. And we do know that we've been teaching literature in our colleges and writing and courses and criticism and so the people go wherever they came from. They go wherever they can get jobs, and so you must always be alert and always be at your best because you don't know who is giving you the eye. [Speer] Now, do you do any work as far as a critic at all? Well, my book of essays, Shadow and Act, is a book of criticism for the most part. They are mainly cultural criticism concerned with various books, jazz, various intellectual problems. I don't call myself a critic, but I do function critically. I do have some familiarity with the game and I think criticism for writers, so-called creative writers, is one part of the creative process. You, you project and then you look at what you've project. You you you see whether it's working. You identify what where it's going. It's a two-way process. But, I prefer I just to try to write my own stuff and leave the criticism to other people. [Speer] Now, what are you working on at the present time? Various things? Yes, various things. I'm working on a book of essays and literary subjects, American culture, one essay on the American language and so on. Some essays on music, and on certain figures in jazz, and I have another small book that I'm putting together and this will not be a collection of essays, I hope, but a little book on the aesthetics of jazz, I mean of the Blues, which will get into jazz, and I'm writing a novel. [Speer] Now, how does this work as far as as far as your own patterns are concerned? Do you switch off from time to time on which one of these things you concentrate on or do you give energies in a given period of time directed toward one thing? Well, I try to give most my energies to the novel, but from time to time I'm called upon to do certain essays. I write those essays, and they are, that represents a certain interruption of the fiction, but they will go into the book of essays, and it's just you have to to keep one section of your mind a little bit separate from the other, but also realize that it's much more important to write a piece of fiction than to write a piece of criticism, that is for me. [Speer] Why? Well because I can reach more people by projecting actions and characters and telling a story. It has a way in to more people than dry, intellectual analysis of some particular aspect of culture personality. [Speer] Now you indicated with the writing of Invisible Man that you had to then at one point pare down about 200 pages worth, is this going to be a problem that you will face with the next novel or is this just a differences in the time or what? Well, I think it's a problem I'll face with this novel, not because I don't have a certain discipline, but because the imagination sometimes takes off. It takes off just like, say, a jazz musician who is on a flight of improvisation. So I Iet I let it go where it wants to go and then I pare it down. It's better to have it all down than to have missed an opportunity of writing yourself into something startling and interesting. [Speer] And so it's just a matter then of having to take (inaudible)... That's right, and then cut your heart out to cut out those words. Our guest has been Ralph Ellison, author of Invisible Man, and we will look forward to your next novel. -Do you have a title for it yet? -No title. -We'll just have to wait for that and thank you. -Thank you. Gilbert Taverner is college chaplain at Simpson College in Indianola, Iowa. He spoke before the Iowa Sponsors of Future Teachers of America at the Iowa State Education Association State Convention earlier this month. And you started out with the group by making some comment about the name of their group the Iowa Sponsors of Future Teachers of America. Yes, I suggested that they would probably have to change the name not to future because that all pupils, all students these days, kindergarten through graduate school, are co teachers, so that the students sitting there may be teaching you because he has experiences you don't have. You will be teaching him, and so there are no future teachers, there are only present teachers. [Speer] Now is this part of what you are identifying as one of the characteristics of the new breed of students? Yes. Students today, even young children, have such an opportunity to travel. They see television, they listen to radio. Multimedia is a part of our time, therefore the extension of the classroom, even quite formally, is going on where it did not go on previously. You left school, you went to do something else, now you may watch a program. It may not be formally educational, but actually it is an extension of it. This adds not only dimensions of knowledge heretofore not known, but it means that a student will see a programs, for example, on television that a teacher has missed. He needs to express this, then the co-teaching goes on. [Speer] Now I was just thinking in a sense that this can have some major importance in this family relationship and perhaps some of the dying customs of the conversation around the dinner table because perhaps the youngsters are in the role that the adults were before in conveying the information. Precisely, you used to be able to go home and give a chemical formula that your parents didn't know and this bugged them, as they loved to say, but now there are so many areas of activity. A student recently told me he tried to discuss the moratorium around the table and it was verboten, it was forbidden because the parents were not interested in this particular area of education which the student felt was an educational technique and which the parents felt was political activity not to be discussed. [Speer] Now, are we going to see more of this direct involvement of the student in the social issues and concern and expression of this concern? Well, yes, we're going I think we're seeing more of it. It is not really new. Comenius, in the 17th century, said that the method of education he liked best was for teachers to teach less and learners to learn more. Well, actually, these centuries later this is coming into its own, so I think we will see more of it, and particularly with the multimedia, the mobility of students. A tiny first grader argued with his teacher about glacial action. He had thrown snowballs on the glacier and the teacher had never been there. The first grader was correct and the teacher was incorrect. Now, this is an isolated example, but it goes on. [Speer] Now what does this mean as far as our present educational system? I think it means breaking down the rigidities of structure. It means that the totality of education, which I think is already going on, is included in the activity of the school board, so that it is understanding that once a classroom is completed, that the education experience is not completed. The extracurricular activities are integrated. Evening classes, classes for adults. The totality. This isn't simply children and youth learning, it is the total society being involved in this. Educational television, team teaching, it's just huge and growing and really quite spontaneous. [Speer] This is going to make a major difference in the training of our teachers? -Very much so, very much so. - [Speer] Are these changes being made in our, our institutions? That's a very delicate question to ask somebody on the college faculty. Sometimes we wonder if they're being made. I think that the teachers colleges, if that's rather anachronism, but the courses and teachers colleges in general are trying definitely to accommodate to this. It is it is such an explosive thing and the techniques are so expensive. The the hardware, the equipment is there, but it's very expensive. It's hard to catch up with. I think perhaps some of the most exciting teaching, teaching is going on in the high school level. This is not to deplore college teaching. If you have two good teachers in college, no student has to learn, you see, whereas in high school, he needs to be perhaps motivated more than he does in in college. And I've been quite thrilled with some of the team teaching, some of the work which has been going on, which has utilized multimedia, so the students, for example, can talk about films, Easy Rider or Midnight Cowboy, or these kinds of things, and relate them in societal ways, and this this is teaching, this is education, this is interaction. But with this sort of interaction on real meaningful things in the life of the young person, then perhaps school will be meaningful enough that there is not the need to drop out on these number of years that we expect young people to stay into the educational system now the prior generations did not have as part of their expectations. Right, in fact, instead of dropping out, they're probably in the, get out the crystal ball here, there'll probably be a great many more opportunities to vary your education so that you may do traveling in connection with say high school work or as well as college work where small children will be encouraged to go not simply to museums, but to be to go to businesses and to see this kind of thing, and the interaction with society will go on, so students will not feel the need to be dropping out to do something. They will be dropping in and the flexibility of the program, the creativity of the program, will be conducive. This is a prediction, which I'm hoping will come true. I'm hoping it's true now in many places, and it is. [Speer] How can the general public, the regular citizen, assist in having the, well, shall we say curriculums and facilities, so that these educational system can carry out some of the things that have to be done in response to the student. Right. I think that one of the things is that the education needs to involve the general citizen in terms of his activity. When you get somebody who is going to an evening class, this person understands more about the school property and everything else. I think that a program of communication across the lines as to what the changing modes of education are, how how education has changed, all the things that are going on in the convention of the Iowa State Teachers Association, these things need to be communicated, as you are trying to do, to a general public, then the public will see that these are not frills, that these are some, these are any kinds of, using a television in school is not a frill, having a film or whatever the case may be, it's not an extracurricular activity, it's an integrated part. Then they will they will be willing to see this in its proper perspective, and most people are once they have the opportunity to see this and experience it. The general public is not opposed to education by any means. [Speer] Sometimes, misinterpretation of the forms. Very much so, and students, whether they be in grammar school, high school, or college, often lead to this misinterpretation by not always understanding themselves. That something has meaning beyond their own participation in it. School boards and school committees, boards of trustees, boards of regents need very much to be involved in the total educational process. So, school committees could, well, go back to school, you see, go back to school for a while and really understand what's going on. Boards of regents could do this, exciting, and we've been doing some of this and enjoying it immensely and so do the people involved. It's, it's great. [Speer] It's always been sort of an old adage, I think, that if somebody's complaining a lot, put them on the committee that's working on it. Then they'll know what problems you're dealing with. Yes, particularly if it's a committee that will help him participate and interact in the problems, and and this is, this doesn't always work, but it can work. I wish we had time to pursue some of your thoughts about the, well let's, say the morality of the students, because being chaplain I suspect you have some comments to make about this, but that would take an entire new interview. May I put one statement, or risky that it is for such a brief time? I am very much impressed with the standards of morality of our students in general, and I think that they are not always understood. There are changing forms, but I think they are people of high integrity and I think they have deep sense of right and wrong. Thank you. Gilbert Taverner is college chaplain at Simpson College in Indianola, Iowa, and thank you very very much. [Speer] Elizabeth Shaw is a Republican from Davenport. This is your third term... Exactly. ...in the house, and how does it differ from the term before? Well, I would say it certainly becomes more exciting because one becomes more part of the operation of the legislature, more knowledgeable about how to proceed, and has more voice in the decisions, and that makes it more fun. [Speer] Okay, now before we get into the background, what legislative committees are you on this year? I'm chairman of the House Committee on constitutional amendments and reapportionment. -[Speer] Now, you would not have been able to have had that chairmanship as... - Oh, certainly not. -[Speer] A first year? -Freshman are never committee chairmen. Occasionally, second term members are committee chairmen, but more often not. I, I have served as the ranking member of that committee for both of my preceding terms. -[Speer] Now, is this like vice-chairman in a sense? -Exactly like vice-chairman. I also serve on the Judiciary Committee on the schools committee. [Speer] Now, going back to some of your your background, as I said I don't want a campaign speech, but tell us a few of your qualifications because my impression is that the women are very well qualified that become members of the legislature. Women who choose to run at least certainly have some kind of a background in government. I think they have to be motivated to do it, by work they've done, or other offices they've held, community activities in which they've engaged. I did study political science in college. It was a matter of some interest to me. I had relatives who were active in government, both in party organizations and I had an uncle who served in the legislature many many years ago. When I first met my husband, he asked me to marry him and go to law school with him in same breath, so I said yes to both of the proposals, and I did graduate from law school as well and did practice law, and I, I think that practice in the legal area is a good, good training and background for the legislature. It's certainly not an essential, but it does cause people to think a lot about the type of laws which are being passed. [Speer] Now, it has the benefit of being able to to recognize the implications of legal materials, and this is actually how laws are written in this language. Yes, I think so, and it leads people to make a closer scrutiny of the language of laws and so on. Many, many times bills are passed which do not read and therefore are not interpreted as they were intended to. [Speer] Mhm, what happens then when you recognize this before you get even out of that session of the legislature? Well, by and large the law, well it's possible to amend a bill before the end of the session and this has been done. This is the happier instance of what happens. Sometimes it's not discovered until sometime later that the language actually does not do what was intended, and then perhaps some hardship is wrought. [Speer] Now of the committee that, committees that you participate in, are there any that perhaps have priority in your mind? -Well of course I would... -The chairmanship. have to put the committee of which I'm the chairman first. It is an area that I've long been interested in because of my political science background and also work as a member of the League of Women Voters who take a good deal of interest in keeping the Constitution current and also in reapportionment matters. That was a group which was one of the earliest proponents of redistricting of the state legislature and of fair districting of Congress. And their premises have been proved true by Supreme Court decisions, and we really have come a long way, and we'll complete the work now as we redistrict on the 1970 census. The redistricting that was done in the legislature last time was on the one-man one-vote principle, but it was on the basis of the 1960 census, so we're about to enter the final step and then of course because of the census here, we are also redistricting our congressional district, and that is a tremendous challenge. [Speer] Now who does this, does the state legislature do this too? Yes, yes. Now, what will be the big issues in this? Well, the biggest issue is that we now have seven congressmen and we'll only have six, so it means we're we're redistricting somebody out of a district and that's that's the very great problem. [Speer] What are the major reasons for the various fights? I mean we know we have to get rid of one. Well, it's on the basis of total population and that there are only a certain number of representatives in Congress. As population grows, and other states grow more rapidly than Iowa, then we we lose a congressman. [Speer] Well, I was meaning within the state though as to where the lines are drawn. What are the main issues and fights as to where you draw these lines? Which district somebody is in... Well of course the first consideration is where existing congressmen dwell. This is not a persuasive consideration, but it's one of considerable interest to the incumbents. We have a constitutional provision that prohibits the crossing of county lines and congressional districting, and yet at the same time the Supreme Court has said that that's not a valid reason to draw a district which isn't equal, so we will first of all have to make some kind of an assumption as to whether the Iowa constitutional provision governs, or or whether the supreme court mandate governs, or whether perhaps they aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. Whether we can continue to have one-man one-vote or have earned essence virtually equally, equal districts, and still observe our county lines. And we're really in the process right now of analyzing some computer runs and and trying to make some plans of our own and in doing a study job on it rather than doing anything in an actual way. Now, of course money is going to be a very very important factor affecting all legislation, I would assume. Yes it is, and my second most important committee, I would say, is appropriations. I omitted to mention it when you asked me earlier, but I consider that, apart from being a chairman of a committee, I consider the Appropriations Committee the most challenging and it's also the most demanding of a legislators time, but I think it does give one the opportunity to make some of the final determinations in where the money goes and how it's spent, which determines how the government functions. Now, are you also on the Education Committee, I can't remember? Schools. Schools. It's divided between higher education and schools, and I'm on schools. Now, between appropriations and schools are you going to have any conflicts of getting the the once on the one hand and financing upon the other? Well, that's always true because we keep having greater demands for state money, but not any more from the educational sector than from all of the others, I think. A good deal of our state money does go to education, but a good deal of it goes to building roads and many other things. Now at this particular stage of the legislature, what sort of work takes up most of your time? In this early part of the session, I think the committee work is of the utmost importance early in the session. Some states actually only meet in session two or three days a week in the early part of their session. The remainder of the time is allocated to committee meetings. We determined that we would stay in session for five days a week, but that our sessions would be shorter on each day, and and the work is being done on the bills and committee, and until they're considered by subcommittees and reported out there's not as much work to be done in general session. Now, how can the constituent affect your attitude? Are there particular legislators attitude best, and at what point? Well, any legislator, in my view, who is worth his salt, observes as much as he can the wishes of his constituents. I I think any legislature must equate that with things he knows, perhaps, which the individual who writes about some particular issue, which paramount in his mind, does not know. This is a perennial question and there's not any easy answer. It's one that legislators struggle with continually, when particularly, when a constituent wishes you to proceed in some fashion that you've determined isn't in the general interest, and yet you must mollify your constituent. Often, it's not possible to change his mind because he has one thing in his mind, and it's his primary consideration, and he's not disposed to consider the general welfare. He wants his consideration to come first. And we thank Elizabeth Shaw, Republican from Davenport, and we have to realize her position of representing the poor, the rich, the educated, the uneducated, the young, and the old. And thank you very much.